Georgia and Russia

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Flashy, Aug 10, 2008.

  1. Flashy

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    I think it is rather strange that none of the anti-american variety of posters here that pop up quite regularly has posted a thread on this yet...three days and counting...yet, silence.

    where are the condemnations about Russian imperialism and aggression etc?

    you know there's a big pipeline going through Georgia and all.

    http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_int...ions/caspian/map_pipeline_caspian_594x370.gif


    Just checking to see if you guys were still around


    :smile:
     
  2. D_Jared Padalicki

    D_Jared Padalicki Account Disabled

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    What can we say about it, it's horrible. Just two days of war and already more then 2000 people got killed. But what can we do about it, complaining doesn't gonna help so please people don't complain.

    Ciao
     
  3. Flashy

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    that is not the point of the thread. The point was how some people who scream at the top of their lungs about American mistakes and "imperialism" , tend to fall silent rather quickly when the discussion becomes another country's overt transgressions.
     
  4. D_Jared Padalicki

    D_Jared Padalicki Account Disabled

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    Ow, my mistake, but isn't that asking for a rather senseless discussion?
     
  5. Flashy

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    well, that depends. I think it is a fair question to ask under the circumstances...I mean by this when the US does something, anything, that meets with disapproval, several threads pop up criticizing the USA vehemently, but when Russia behaves in an even more abysmal manner, with callous disregard for civilians, or respect of territorial integrity of a sovereign nation, nobody says a word about it.

    Basically i would just like to hear from the anti-american types why a double standard is justified.

    I am not condoning the behavior of the USA's government on all issues, what i am asking for is why people feel a double standard is necessary, when dealing with alleged american transgressions, but there is a deafening silence on a very disturbing event involving the Russians.
     
  6. B_mitchymo

    B_mitchymo New Member

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    It could be perhaps that the international community know more about American affairs i guess. I bet more people would say if you ask 'where is the country of Georgia?' that it is in America as the caucauses region of the world is seldom heard about....how many of us know anything about the country of Georgia....or Monrovia, or Azerbahjan and Uzbekistan etc etc
     
  7. Flashy

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    true, but at the moment, this is the biggest news in the world. A global superpower is essentially invading a satellite province, and bombing civilians.

    Indeed, many do not know much about the countries of the caucauses as you said, but that should not prevent outrage should it?

    I mean, if the US decided to invade Belize tomorrow, I bet alot of folks globally would try and figure out where Belize was very quickly and start screaming their heads off about American imperialism.
     
  8. ScorpioSlut

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    Um just FYI there is another region like this called Transnistria in Moldova and the Russians are also in a stalemate type stance with the Moldovans over this region. I don't suspect it will be long before Russia takes some military action in this region as well....especially if their actions in Georgia go unchecked. Russia has already been randomly cutting off the energy supplies to Moldova and trying to coerce them into letting Transnistria become it's own region. Russia is, always has been, and most likely always will be a big bully.
     
  9. B_mitchymo

    B_mitchymo New Member

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    It is a tricky situation, here in the UK it is a big media event with many interviews on the BBC with Georgian representatives who argue a case which has everyones sympathy. Russia is effectively being a bully and hiding behind a UN mandate which says it has the authority to step in and protect those people under attack in the South Ossetia region and as Georgia went into the region (rightfully it can as it is Georgian territory) to quash seperatists, Russia decided to act to protect those pro-russian people.
    It is pretty evident now tho that Russia has seized the chance to enact its own agenda and enforce its regional dominance.
    Understandably, the likes of Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia are extremely concerned at the heavy-handedness being used and were the first to condemn Russia for its brutal offensive.
    The concern is that if nothing is done about this then Russia could regain power over former soviet states who now want closer ties with the EU, Russia feels perhaps it is a dying power with European Union expanding ever further around its borders. The oil pipeline explosion in the Ukraine last year was believed to be down to Russia flexing its muscle...Georgia has a new pipe-line running through it via Turkey now so can provide a gateway for other former soviet states to gain even more seperation from their former ruler.
    But what can feasibly be done? Russia is a superpower and if tackled with military might is bound to lead to a catastrophe in a region such a short distance north of the middle east....world war 3 may commeth!
     
  10. Flashy

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    very true.

    Putin is a thug...and he is still pulling the strings behind the scenes.
     
  11. Flashy

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    true, and a good post.

    but this to me is why Ukraine should be immediately admitted into NATO.

    Georgia is a small relatively weak military power...but Ukraine, although not as strong as Russia, could still put up one hell of a fight if it came to it, considering how much former Soviet hardware they have not to metnion their modern military industry.

    Ukraine as a 150,000 man active force and up to 1 million reserves.
    Georgia has a 37,000 man active force and 100,000 reserves

    Ukraine has control over the bases of the Russian fleet in the Black Sea

    Ukraine has at least 785 modern Battle Tanks, plus another 3000 or so relatively modern Soviet ones, plus another 10,000 infanty fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers, plus about 1,000 artillery pieces
    Georgia has about 500 relatively modern and antiquated old soviet tanks and 500 armored vehicles and 200 artillery peices

    Ukraine has 300 frontline Fighters/Bombers in its air force, plus another 300 1980s era fighter bombers.

    Georgia has 12 1980s era fighter/bombers



    If the Russians tried to fuck with the Ukraine, it would be one hell of a fight.
     
  12. mista geechee

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    Well, that won't allow them to drag the US flag through the mud.

    Just one of the many double standards that make the world go 'round.
     
  13. transformer_99

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    The big 3 are on the warpath, USA (Iraq & Afghanistan), China (Tibet) and now Russia (Georgia).
     
  14. B_mitchymo

    B_mitchymo New Member

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    Sadly tho...Ukraine does not have the advanced technology which Russia does however it has i believe already took action against Russia....after Russia sunk a Georgian boat carrying missiles, Ukraine has now vowed to blockade the Russian fleet in the Baltic from reaching their ports and as the russians are blockading Georgian ports it perhaps gives some bargaining power.
    The Ukraine may prove itself to hold the best cards in resolving the confrontation between its neighbours rather than the UN, Nato or EU.
    I hope that the UK does not have to get too involved in this one as we have a worse relationship with Russia these days even more so than you guys do especially after that plutonium killing of a former kgb spy
     
  15. Elmer Gantry

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    I don't make anti-american posts. Only anti-fascist posts. So I really should make one about this, I guess.

    Russia moving into Georgia nothing but a land grab. We are seeing more of this as the great energy end game commences. Anyone weak enought to invade and important enough in terms of energy strategy looks like they will be bulldozed.

    It is interesting to watch the Russkies go about it though. They still don't have the art of manipulation or media management down as well as the leaders of this game. They still have the ham fisted old Politburo way. I wonder how long it will take them to realise they have to embrace the media to get what they want and can't rely on sending them all to Siberia anymore.
     
  16. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    OH dear lord....

    This isn't a land grab. The regions of Georgia that Russia are invading are pro-Russian. They welcome Russian military presence. They have banners on the street that say, "Putin Is Our President!" The deaths have not been caused by Russians, but by withdrawing Georgian troops.

    This goes a long way back, but if anyone had listened to the experts on the Caucasus at the time, they all said, "If Kosovo declares independence, Russia will invade Georgia." Georgia just happens to be the latest pawn in the power game between Russia and the west. Georgia's president is pro-western. He has spent his time in office currying favor with Condi Rice and Dick Cheney. Mc Cain's foreign affairs expert is even on the Georgian payroll. Georgia is paying big money and kissing a lot of ass in the west in hopes of becoming so endeared to the US that he could do precisely what he has done: invade South Ossetia. South Ossetia has acted as an autonomous republic since Georgian independence. While technically part of Georgia, it's filled with ethnic Russians who would love nothing more than to go back to Russia. South Ossetia and its sister province, Abkhazia, are in the same boat in this respect. Expect Abkhazia to be the next venue of conflict.

    You can also chalk this up to another winner for the Bush administration which has done everything possible to fuck-up western relations with Russia by continuing to treat and view Russia as it did in the cold war era. Moving into South Ossetia was a way for Putin to say, "fuck you," to the US, calling the bluff, of American half-promises to defend Georgia in its effort to regin-in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Georgia's president is a naive man who believed what the US State Department told him in private. Those assurances gave him the balls to attempt to quash pro-Russian sentiment and anti-Geogrian governments in those provinces. Putin sees this as quid pro quo for the independence of Kosovo and is using it as a message to other similar Caucasian governments that the US will not come to their aid no matter how much they'll bend over for the US.

    Be really careful when reading western press, particularly American press, on this because most get it very wrong. If Saakashvili, the Georgian president, who has drawn liberal parallels between himself and Stalin and Beria, had left well enough alone, he would not have the crisis he does today. Saakashvili, on the other hand, ran on a platform of assuring Georgian integrity and went ahead with trying to force the captiulation of the autonomous governments of South Ossetia and Abkhazia despite warnings that this very thing would occur. He counted on western backing for his actions and hasn't gotten anything beyond some strong words and diplomatic protests which amount to nothing.

    Both South Ossetia and Abkhazia were part of Russia until Stalin (who was Georgian himself), "gave," them to Georgia as a gift. They are not ethnically Georgian and never have been. They would both like to be independent or, failing that, reabsorbed into Russia. Imagine Churchill giving Cornwall to Spain or FDR giving Minnesota to Mexico and then guess where the people of those pawn states really want to be. As Putin, South Ossetians, and Russians themselves, see it, the Russian army are liberators, defending ethnic Russians from an overzealous Georgian central government that treats them as second class citizens.

    I'll say it again: be very careful who you listen to on this one. There's a lot of completely clueless reporting going on here.
     
    #16 jason_els, Aug 10, 2008
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2008
  17. kalipygian

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    Ossetians are not 'ethnic Russians', their language is closest to Farsi. They have been there longer than there has been a Russian empire, as is also the case with the nation of Georgia. Some South Ossetians have been given Russian passports by the Russian government. That doesn't turn them into ethnic Slavs.
     
  18. Guy-jin

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    I wonder which news outlet you were listening to that told you South Ossetia is filled with "ethnic Russians". I've certainly read quite a few Western news outlets calling the Ossetians "ethnic Russians," much to my chagrin.

    Like kalipygian said, Ossetians aren't "ethnic Russians" by any means. Russia contains a very large number of ethnic groups, Ossetians being one of the smaller groups. That whole region of the country has a very sordid history, as you seem to be well aware, and being clear on the ethnic divisions in the area is important when trying to explain what led up to the current state of affairs.

    I re-emphasize this point because you were very specific pointing out that the Ossetians aren't ethnically Georgian, implying that them being ethnically Russian (which they aren't) was a major reason there's a large number of Russian supporters in South Ossetia. And you know very well that their support for Russian invasion has nothing to do with them being ethnically Russian and everything to do with them being ethnically Ossetian.
     
  19. vxie

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    Flashy, maybe it's because everyone is distracted by the olympics....

    What's been the first news item the last few days... at least here i know it's the olympics, and the Russia Vs Georgia war is on half way through the news... I think it's very well planned on Russia's behalf to keep most of it out of the Media.
     
  20. vxie

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    ... and besides we all know it was America's doing!!!


    :joke:
     
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