Georgia and Russia

D_Thoraxis_Biggulp

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I've seen talk of this on other sites, and it seems like people are under the delusion that they're talking about America's Georgia. I've actually seen people accusing Russia of "stealing our fucking oil."
I never thought I'd say it, but it's good to be on lpsg, where people know what the hell they're talking about (usually).
 

jason_els

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I wonder which news outlet you were listening to that told you South Ossetia is filled with "ethnic Russians". I've certainly read quite a few Western news outlets calling the Ossetians "ethnic Russians," much to my chagrin.

Like kalipygian said, Ossetians aren't "ethnic Russians" by any means. Russia contains a very large number of ethnic groups, Ossetians being one of the smaller groups. That whole region of the country has a very sordid history, as you seem to be well aware, and being clear on the ethnic divisions in the area is important when trying to explain what led up to the current state of affairs.

I re-emphasize this point because you were very specific pointing out that the Ossetians aren't ethnically Georgian, implying that them being ethnically Russian (which they aren't) was a major reason there's a large number of Russian supporters in South Ossetia. And you know very well that their support for Russian invasion has nothing to do with them being ethnically Russian and everything to do with them being ethnically Ossetian.

No, I didn't know that until I went through other sites after reading the replies here. Please do not call me a liar when I was simply mistaken. I was wrong and I admit that completely. I now know Ossetians are descended from the Alans and are not ethnically Russian, but Samaritan.

Which again, only proves my point. It's easy to be misled on this issue :biggrin1:.
 

jason_els

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Ossetians are not 'ethnic Russians', their language is closest to Farsi. They have been there longer than there has been a Russian empire, as is also the case with the nation of Georgia. Some South Ossetians have been given Russian passports by the Russian government. That doesn't turn them into ethnic Slavs.

It is my understanding that at the collapse of the USSR, anyone living in the former republics was offered a Russian passport if they wanted one and that most Ossetians opted for that. If the 2007 census figures are correct, ethnic Ossetians comprise 2/3 of the population:

Ossetians probably continue to form a two-thirds ethnic majority within South Ossetia, with the Georgian minority living mainly in three areas: (a) scattered villages near the principal
town of Ts&#8217;khinvali; (b) scattered villages along the lower reaches of the central Didi Liakhvi river valley; and (c) a comparatively lengthy string of villages along the eastern K&#8217;sani river valley. Using the estimate of a total population of 70,000 as a basis, it is possible that South Ossetia currently possesses an ethnic Ossetian population of some 45,000 and an ethnic Georgian
population of perhaps 17,500. If these figures are valid they show a drop of 30% and 37% respectively on the final Soviet population figures of 1989. -PCGN of the British Foreign Service
 

Guy-jin

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No, I didn't know that until I went through other sites after reading the replies here. Please do not call me a liar when I was simply mistaken. I was wrong and I admit that completely. I now know Ossetians are descended from the Alans and are not ethnically Russian, but Samaritan.

Which again, only proves my point. It's easy to be misled on this issue :biggrin1:.

Indeed, it does, and I agree.

And I wasn't really calling you a liar--I actually thought you knew that and flubbed up typing "ethnic Russians" instead of "ethnic Ossetians" because you'd probably heard or read it in the news so much recently. :smile:
 

javyn

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A whole lotta needless discussion for an answer that's glaringly obvious. The US will be hated no matter what we do. Period.
 

Phil Ayesho

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I think it is rather strange that none of the anti-american variety of posters here that pop up quite regularly has posted a thread on this yet...three days and counting...yet, silence.
:smile:

It is not being anti-american to criticize the actions of our "leadership".

IT is, in fact, the central characteristic of being PRO-American to complain whenever any elected or appointed official falls short of what ought to be expected of those who represent our nation.


True Patriotism is supporting your country always, and supporting your government when it deserves it.

I don't support my president.
I support the constitution.

When my president fails in his oath to do the same... then he ceases to be my president.
 

Flashy

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It is not being anti-american to criticize the actions of our "leadership".

IT is, in fact, the central characteristic of being PRO-American to complain whenever any elected or appointed official falls short of what ought to be expected of those who represent our nation.


True Patriotism is supporting your country always, and supporting your government when it deserves it.

I don't support my president.
I support the constitution.

When my president fails in his oath to do the same... then he ceases to be my president.

I am not suggesting that people should not criticize us, phil. I am saying that there must be some level playing field when it comes to the anti-americanism that is focused at us from outside sources. There is a notorious and passionate group of international critics, both on LPSG, and more obviously, worldwide, who never fail to criticize everything about the US, warranted or not, leadership or citizenry, when it suits their purpose, yet go silent when the actions of their governments or others should be criticized vehemently as well.


I could not agree more with you about criticizing our leadership and leaders as being central to what is important about being american, i was referring to those on the outside looking in, who seem to find a problem with EVERYTHING, that the US does, no matter what, yet fall comparatively silent when a country like Russia does what it does, or China does what it does, etc. etc.

I agree completely with your statement that "True Patriotism is supporting your country always, and supporting your government when it deserves it."
 

artlover20

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I just dont understand why Russia has to send tanks and shoot innocent people walking away trying to get out of georgia. Why should these people suffer due to politics? There is never going to be peace in this world and at least the U.S. and the U.N. should try to stop this ASAP.
 

kalipygian

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No, I didn't know that until I went through other sites after reading the replies here. Please do not call me a liar when I was simply mistaken. I was wrong and I admit that completely. I now know Ossetians are descended from the Alans and are not ethnically Russian, but Samaritan.

Which again, only proves my point. It's easy to be misled on this issue :biggrin1:

.

Interesting, I did not realize that the Alani who entered the late Roman empire were Indo-Aryan, I see that is the case. Alan is a variant of Aryan, the Georgians call them Osi. I knew they were not Teutonic, but supposed them perhaps Finno-Uigric.

The Sarmatians were recorded by the Greeks as in the area before the 5thc BC. As that is the likely original area of the Indo-European language group, probably longer than that. The Russians are certainly not native to the Caucasus, but conquered it in the 19thc.

The first map is around 100BC, the second around 700AD, the third current.
 

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Deno

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Is it totally wrong that I read somewhere that Russia was responding to a request for military support. That Russia did not in anyway invade anything. I know I read it somewhere maybe Yahoo News.
 

jason_els

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Russia first opened its borders when Georgian troops first started invading South Ossetia in the beginning of the month after Georgia claimed that South Ossetian partisans had attacked ethnic Georgian villages in South Ossetia. South Ossetia's government denies this. Many partisans and the South Ossetian government fled across the border to North Ossetia, which is part of Russia. I do not find any reports that South Ossetia requested assistance of any sort from Russia short of a report in TASS, the Russian news agency and that only refers to humanitarian aid.
 

jason_els

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Interesting, I did not realize that the Alani who entered the late Roman empire were Indo-Aryan, I see that is the case. Alan is a variant of Aryan, the Georgians call them Osi. I knew they were not Teutonic, but supposed them perhaps Finno-Uigric.

The Sarmatians were recorded by the Greeks as in the area before the 5thc BC. As that is the likely original area of the Indo-European language group, probably longer than that. The Russians are certainly not native to the Caucasus, but conquered it in the 19thc.

The first map is around 100BC, the second around 700AD, the third current.

Are there any other Finno-Ugric peoples other than the Magyars and the Finns? If there are, I don't know of any.

What's really cool? That these people exist may indicate that the Odyssey is based on a real event:

In Argonautica (of Apollonius of Rhodes) Jason's companions land on a beach of Colchis called Circea. They saw tamarisk and willow trees having corpses tied to the tree tops wrapped in an ox's skin. Apollonius explains that even in his day, when a male died, they hung him from a tree outside the town. The women, in contrast, were buried. In particular among the Ossetians, these funereal practices were still widespread up until a few decades ago. In Late Antiquity, records become much more diffuse, and the Iazyges generally cease to be mentioned as a tribe. In the Middle Ages an Iranian people appeared in Eastern-Europe, the Jazones (named in Latin diplomas also from Philistei/Filistei from the Biblical nation). Jazones, an Ossetic people migrated in Hungaria, are first mentioned in Hungarian records in the year 1318, and their name, spelled in Greek Language means "jason's" (&#921;&#945;&#963;&#959;&#957;&#949;&#962;). -wiki
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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Is it totally wrong that I read somewhere that Russia was responding to a request for military support. That Russia did not in anyway invade anything. I know I read it somewhere maybe Yahoo News.

South Ossetia is still part of Georgia.
So if Russia crossed the border without the Georgian government's permission, it was as an invading force, necessarily.
Whatever request the South Ossetians might have made is of no consequence.
 

Calboner

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OH dear lord....

This isn't a land grab. The regions of Georgia that Russia are invading are pro-Russian. They welcome Russian military presence. They have banners on the street that say, "Putin Is Our President!" The deaths have not been caused by Russians, but by withdrawing Georgian troops.

Russian forces have bombed and now (according to the latest reports) invaded and occupied Gori, a city far outside of South Ossetia. They have been bombing Tbilisi, the capital of Georgia, and may be set to invade it next. They have been attacking Georgian forces that were trying to withdraw from South Ossetia. Maybe that's not a "land grab," but it is certainly wanton aggression — which is pretty much what is to be expected of Putin and his Mini-me.
 

tripod

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Didn't Georgia shoot down some Russian planes? Not that Russia even needed an excuse to flex it's muscles... all of the former soviet bloc states are feeling their necks now. It was funny how NATO wanted Georgia to get all of it's territories in line (Ossetia) before it was to be considered for NATO membership and when they did... ol' Ruska came in and opened up a can of whoop ass with NATO falling silent. Russia is setting an example of how it treats it's former states when they get out of line.
 

jason_els

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Russian forces have bombed and now (according to the latest reports) invaded and occupied Gori, a city far outside of South Ossetia. They have been bombing Tbilisi, the capital of Georgia, and may be set to invade it next. They have been attacking Georgian forces that were trying to withdraw from South Ossetia. Maybe that's not a "land grab," but it is certainly wanton aggression — which is pretty much what is to be expected of Putin and his Mini-me.

MOSCOW, August 11 (RIA Novosti) - Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Russia is not seeking to overthrow the Georgian president prior to the start of a peace process in breakaway South Ossetia.


The United States' UN ambassador accused Russia on Sunday of attempting to overthrow Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, citing remarks made by Lavrov in a telephone conversation with U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.



Lavrov said Rice had "misinterpreted" his remarks saying that with Saakashvili in power, the conflict in the breakaway region will not be resolved.

"If Georgian troops leave South Ossetia, and Georgia and South Ossetia sign a ceasefire agreement, peace will be restored irrespective of Saakashvili's future fate," Lavrov said. -RIA Novosti

I doubt Russia will go all out and destroy Georgia's government. I think Russia would like to see Saakashvili out of office and, if it happens because of this, then all the better (to their way of thinking). Georgia is being made an example so Russia will push Georgia's back to the wall to get whatever it wants from Georgia when negotiations begin.

War is not about being fair or stopping at predetermined points. War is about achieving political objectives. It does Russia no good to topple Georgia so long as Russia can make its point.
 

maestro071

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"Of course, Saddam Hussein ought to have been hanged for destroying several Shiite villages," Putin said in Moscow. "And the incumbent Georgian leaders who razed ten Ossetian villages at once, who ran elderly people and children with tanks, who burned civilian alive in their sheds &#8212; these leaders must be taken under protection."
There would be an much more interesting parallel to draw : The situation Georgia -Ossetia - Russia with the one of Serbia -Kosovo -NATO...
It's so interesting that the NATO is now concerned about the integrity of the country, like Georgia, and overreacting of Russia and its disproportionate response. Just to remind: Russians have its people living there, Georgia didn't respect signed peace agreements and Russian peace troupes on the ground.Attacked heavily bombing civilian infrastructure, causing thousands of civilians to flea and hundreds were killed...
Russians still didn't start to destroy all Georgian industry, all bridges, TV and Radio stations (in the name of democracy and freedom of speech) some hospitals (humanity) and some of the embassies as NATO did in Serbia at the time... Remember the known word from that period: COLLATERAL damage - NATO invention
To conclude: Aggression -YES, legitimate - No (though can be discussed), justified - Yes, Disproportionate -Yes....
but NATO and US officials are the least credential
ones who should criticize that!

 

fgeorgio

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jason_els is one of the smartest people i have read on line...he is absolutely right...I agree in saying it is hypocritic to attack Americas invasions and interventions and to stay silent over Russias.We must not forget Georgia started this war,obviously hoping for American or European support(withouth even asking us if we want to fight and die for their country),and that America has been implementing an agressive policy against Russia the past 3 years(missiles in Czech Rep.,Hungary/wanting Ukraine and Georgia to join NATO/supporting Kossovos independence).BTW i am in the military and each time i hear the phone ring i think it is my call to be informed that i am being deployed to the area.
 

charlie502

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I hate to sound like a wuzz (?) but is it in our best interests to oppose Russia? We need their help with Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, China, etc. Why not just keep our mitts out of this fight?

There are a million Georgia's all over the world. Are we back to being the world's cop? Maybe we should fight everyone!

If you read beyond the headlines, the Georgian Government is not that innocent. They paid us off by sending a few troops to Afghanistan which made Bush REAL happy, and now they want us to GIVE OUR LIVES for what?

The whole thing will only end with another failure for us. Lets keep out. I fell sorry for the Georgian people, but I also feel sorry for the Russian people to have to sacrifice their sons to protect their borders against a two bit, cocky Georgian government with a big attitude.

Let the Georgians fight their own battles. Their government started this, and their government has to take responsibility for this.
 

D_Sir Fitzwilly Wankheimer III

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"Of course, Saddam Hussein ought to have been hanged for destroying several Shiite villages," Putin said in Moscow. "And the incumbent Georgian leaders who razed ten Ossetian villages at once, who ran elderly people and children with tanks, who burned civilian alive in their sheds — these leaders must be taken under protection."
There would be an much more interesting parallel to draw : The situation Georgia -Ossetia - Russia with the one of Serbia -Kosovo -NATO...
It's so interesting that the NATO is now concerned about the integrity of the country, like Georgia, and overreacting of Russia and its disproportionate response. Just to remind: Russians have its people living there, Georgia didn't respect signed peace agreements and Russian peace troupes on the ground.Attacked heavily bombing civilian infrastructure, causing thousands of civilians to flea and hundreds were killed...
Russians still didn't start to destroy all Georgian industry, all bridges, TV and Radio stations (in the name of democracy and freedom of speech) some hospitals (humanity) and some of the embassies as NATO did in Serbia at the time... Remember the known word from that period: COLLATERAL damage - NATO invention
To conclude: Aggression -YES, legitimate - No (though can be discussed), justified - Yes, Disproportionate -Yes....
but NATO and US officials are the least credential ones who should criticize that!


With that logic then we should have gone into Iraq and really kicked ass instead of pussy footing around to protect innocent lives.

I will say this. I admire Russia. When they go to battle they really kick some ass. The US used have some balls like that.

When you go to war yoy need to beat your enemy into senseless submission what ever the cost.