German school gunman 'kills 15'

[dong20]

I'm surprised this hasn't already had a thread.

"Fifteen people have been killed by a teenage gunman who went on a rampage in south-west Germany, officials say.

Among the dead were nine pupils, eight of them girls, and three teachers at the Albertville secondary school in the town of Winnenden, north of Stuttgart.

The gunman, a 17-year-old former pupil, entered the school at about 0930 (0830 GMT) dressed in black combat gear and began shooting - aiming head-high.

He fled in a stolen car, but killed himself after being cornered by police. "

It's essentially the standard M.O. for this sort of tragedy - and the fact that one can say that is disturbing enough.

My condolences to anyone affected, not much more one can offer at this point.

BBC NEWS | Europe | German school gunman 'kills 15'

 

[pym]

And We here in the states had a 'gentleman' from Alabama Kak his whole family and some random innocents to the tune of 10 victims also.
Its a mad mad world.

 

[dong20]

Its a mad mad world.

The world is fine, it's people that worry me!

 

[dong20]

I posted this in Politics for a reason; the discussion will almost certainly turn to Gun Control which is a political issue.

Could it be moved back please...?

 

[thadjock]

there's alot of pain out there,

i think the more connected with get through technology the more isolated we become as humans.

I don't know this kid's story but if it's like all the other cases where people break, there is always someone around them, a peer, parents, friend, teacher, collegue, or classmate, who has an indication that something is wrong but nobody took action or reached out.

i'm usually not a tv news magazine fan but i've caught a couple episodes of that ABC thing called "what would u do" and found it pretty interesting. I know it's massively produced, and completely exploitive, (it's like a producer took punk'd and tried to legitimize it by doing it in the news division) but within that train wreck is a very powerful message. anybody else tune in?

 

[HazelGod]

I posted this in Politics for a reason; the discussion will almost certainly turn to Gun Control which is a political issue.

Could it be moved back please...?

I disagree...the random actions of an individual don't necessarily evoke thoughts of gun control. Rationally, the discussion should turn toward the lack of decent mental health care in modern societies.

Which is a policy discussion, and so I concur with Dong...this thread belongs in the Politics forum, where he created it.

 

[thadjock]

I posted this in Politics for a reason; the discussion will almost certainly turn to Gun Control which is a political issue.

Could it be moved back please...?

was that ur objective?

 

[thadjock]

I disagree...the random actions of an individual don't necessarily evoke thoughts of gun control. Rationally, the discussion should turn toward the lack of decent mental health care in modern societies.

Which is a policy discussion, and so I concur with Dong...this thread belongs in the Politics forum, where he created it.

things we categorize as random acts never are. they all have a back story that leads to the point when the act occurs.

we've been conditioned to see these acts as random because the mass media needs to capsulize the story into a 90 second sound bite. and move on.

 

[D_Jared Padalicki]

Shocking day today... Can't say much, it happend. We won't understand. Just a bit of support for the victims.

 

[B_spiker067]

Human nature is full of a sickening level of ego.

The fact of the matter is that most of the violence found in the world, and in this type in particular, is all about the ego of the individual(s) involved. They finally see themselves for the loser they are and in their minds shouldn't be. They then blame others and lash out by killing people and in the end themselves as well.

A dose of ego is important- it propels humanity forward, but... If only there was a spiritual means by which to control the ego...if only.... Can anyone think of anything?

 

[798686]

One of those horrible days - pretty hard to take in really.

I agree - thoughts will turn to gun control (as someone has said) - and that's probably fair enough. Altho' the UK has really strict laws, and this sort of thing has happened a couple of times here too.

I think thoughts should also turn to bullying, with the german incident - what is it that causes these ppl to feel so angry and ostracised? - is there a link, or am i being too simplistic?

As someone else said tho - should be the victims we're thinkin about, really. :frown1:

 

[dong20]

I disagree...the random actions of an individual don't necessarily evoke thoughts of gun control. Rationally, the discussion should turn toward the lack of decent mental health care in modern societies.

That's your prerogative although in view of past responsese to such threads I'd have to disagree. Rationally you're quite correct but as entirely rational responses are seldom what actually happen here - I was simply being realistic in my 'expectation'.

was that ur objective?

Not my objective, at least not my sole one, but as I said above, it was my expectation.

I agree with HG that such incidents are rooted in many social issues that reach far beyond mere gun 'control'. That said (and I believe I'm mostly in disagreement with him on this), I believe gun 'control' is also a significant factor.

This incident didn't happen in the US. This was one of the main reasons I created this thread at all, and not (for example) one about the other mulitple killing Pym related - an incident which is equally tragic.I generally don't create threads about such incidents in the US. This is for a variety of reasons.

I posted this thread in part to underscore a sad reality that such violent firearms abuse isn't unique to the US. This is because it's something some folk seem bizarrely unaware of.

For the most part though, I posted it to invoke a debate around a 'disjunct' in perception and reaction to such such incident - and thus the resultant exposure of other underlying factors (such as that which HG alluded to).

This is what I'd aimed for, but again as I said it wasn't my expectation. :biggrin1:

Which is a policy discussion, and so I concur with Dong...this thread belongs in the Politics forum, where he created it.

Thusly, we now have two reasons ...:wink:

 

[thadjock]

well dong i'm a gun owner AND a 2nd amendment defender ( i even believe it applies to an individual's right and not just a militia, which btw, Obama does too) and i'd be eager to have a debate with you about gun control. but ur probably not going to like everything i say.

the sad fact is, there ISN'T any real debate that happens , it's two polar opposite groups that reject every position of the opposition. I would like to have people from both sides actually listen and explain their position. but because of emotion and rhetoric it's a joke. so bring it on, i'll tell u exactly what i think.

if this is the debate you hoped to start, then maybe you should have been more direct with the title of the thread, instead of using current events to incite argument.

 

[transformer_99]

Well, as things are in this life, it will only get worse. I'm not going to pretend to be too stupid to claim to not be able to understand it. One incident might be related to cruelty suffered at the hands of others. It might be unemployment/joblessness related ? Infidelity ? You name it, the motives are there and if it builds up, people snap. Fact of life, "mankind does turn it's back on it's own.", whether it's merited or not ?

 

[transformer_99]

As you guys are debating gun control too. That's double edged, the general public needs guns to protect themselves from their enemies. Here was a case, where even if one had a gun, could they have been in a position to defend themselves ? And had they lost that draw down, what if the killer had taken that gun and committed further murders ? All possibilities, but if guns aren't allowed in the hands of the masses ? The only ones that will have a gun will be the criminals and in that case, if none of these victims has/had a gun, you see the results of that lopsided policy in this particular case where those that could've owned a gun exercised their right and chose not to bear arms.

Look at the church shooting in Illinois, I can't wait until they get to the bottom of that story. The truth needs to be exposed on that too ? Too often we see these crime/murder stories on television. When it's all laid out, there is motive and those involved generally got what they knew was risk/reward for their actions & deeds regardless of probability/likelihood ?

 

[B_Lightkeeper]

I think the Alabama nut's death toll is 11 including himself. At least we won't have to support him in a prison for the next 20 years or so. I feel sorry though for the victims and their families - his too, I guess.

 

[joyboytoy79]

well dong i'm a gun owner AND a 2nd amendment defender ( i even believe it applies to an individual's right and not just a militia, which btw, Obama does too) and i'd be eager to have a debate with you about gun control. but ur probably not going to like everything i say.

the sad fact is, there ISN'T any real debate that happens , it's two polar opposite groups that reject every position of the opposition. I would like to have people from both sides actually listen and explain their position. but because of emotion and rhetoric it's a joke. so bring it on, i'll tell u exactly what i think.

if this is the debate you hoped to start, then maybe you should have been more direct with the title of the thread, instead of using current events to incite argument.

I really do hate to single you out. I hate even more to pick on one sentence, but, here I am. I'm one of those mythical middle-of-the roaders, i guess. I, for one, do not oppose gun ownership. I DO, however, oppose AK47 ownership. Semi-automatic rifles? Not necessary. Background check, before gun purchase = GOOD THING.

I personally dislike guns. They scare me. So, I choose not to own one. I do like having that choice though, and wouldn't dream of taking it away from others - unless they've abused their freedoms in the past. There's a difference between gun control and banning all guns for all reasons. Therein lies the debate.

 

[transformer_99]

Ala. gunman left list of those who wronged him

That would explain a lot of that away. Some of it might be very legitimate ? While other might be misperceived ? Not condoning nor justifying it, but let's face it, perfectly comprehensible ?. The man lashed out over a build up of several incidents. Just curious, but I wonder how many were on the list, one's he did wind up putting down and in his mind, evening a score ?

 

[thadjock]

I really do hate to single you out. I hate even more to pick on one sentence, but, here I am. I'm one of those mythical middle-of-the roaders, i guess. I, for one, do not oppose gun ownership. I DO, however, oppose AK47 ownership. Semi-automatic rifles? Not necessary. Background check, before gun purchase = GOOD THING.

I personally dislike guns. They scare me. So, I choose not to own one. I do like having that choice though, and wouldn't dream of taking it away from others - unless they've abused their freedoms in the past. There's a difference between gun control and banning all guns for all reasons. Therein lies the debate.

then theres u and me in the middle, that makes 2, & u know exactly what i'm talking about , and know better than most that what always happens is a screeching rhetoric between the hard right NRA and total gun ban lefty's.

i think u also presume that my gun ownership automatically makes me a NRA wingnut. it doesn't. I fully support the same assault weapon ban that Obama sponsored as a state legislator, and that has overwhelming support by every urban law enforcement agency. I also don't see anything wrong with additional waiting times, background checks, mental health screening, and mandated safety training for acquiring a handgun, and i dont' want everybody in LA or DC or NYC or other dense urban enviroments having a concealed carry permit.

the last place i wanna be if some criminal pulls a gun is where 60 civilians bystanders with totally legal and permitted concealed weapons all whip it out and go into self defense mode and start shooting up everything in sight. I'll take my chances being unarmed and having ONE criminal with a gun pulling a robbery, than get caught in a wild west shootout with a bunch of untrained nuts with guns "defending themselves"

and as far as I"m concerned, all the NRA bullshit about having the right to carry for self defense goes out the window because there is absolutely NO training required to own a gun. there are alot of people who aren't even qualified to drive a car, let alone carry a gun and make the best decision of when and how to fire it at another human being. Even patrol cops who've been highly trained and been in an urban warfare environment find it impossible to make the right split second decision when the time comes to take a life.

upstanding gun owners need to accept some reasonable concessions, and stop shouting bull shit talking points like "criminalize gun ownership and only criminals will have guns" and start having a real conversation about how to keep us all safer.

 

[Krusader]

terrible news