get down, you lemmings

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Dr Rock, May 14, 2006.

  1. Dr Rock

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    who lives in the east 'neath the willow tree? Sex
  2. dong20

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    I'm not sure which is worse, the 63% who said they would support it or the 42% that clearly thought it was wrong that they were even told about it...or maybe the 2% that evidently didn't care either way!!

    Similar thing going on here...I'm going to have learn to write with a pen all over again and get some pigeons, it worked before it can work again..:rolleyes:
     
  3. madame_zora

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    Wow, now can I get some sympathy for being surrounded by morons?
     
  4. DC_DEEP

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    <sigh> and I have actually been called an "alarmist" for some of the things I have posted about issues like this, and my general mistrust of our government in general, and my fear and loathing of the current administration.

    No one seems to pay attention when I keep screaming "don't put up with it, don't let it happen another minute." But as long as I'm the only one screaming, I'm a nut. If I could get everyone to scream, it would be "we the people".

    I think our public schools here in the US need to spend one full year studying (in great detail) the rise and fall of the Third Reich. Just a refresher, so that they recognize what's going on here.
     
  5. davidjh7

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    I've done my best to yell and scream and rant to anybody that will listen to me about this kind of thing. This is NOT my America. It is the land of the 1% abusing power over anybody they can to get another buck, or gain more power, or see what they can get away with. I personally am ashamed of the American people for letting this go on so long. It bothers me that there are not mre riots, and out and out mayhem in the streets over what these sons of bitches are doing to this country, and everybody that isn;t one of the select few. WHen this crap happened 100 years ago in this country, there was general rioting, for long periods of time, until they HAD to step in and reduce the pwoer of the robber barrons. NOw, whimpering masses cry that they are too busy to take responsibility for their country, and what is happening to it, and because of it. It's breaking my heart, because of what it cost to make this country, in blood, and now a few corporate and political antichrists are flushing it all down the fucking toilet!! OK---sorry for ranting, but this touches me at a deep level, and except for saying and fighting for what I believe, I feel like I'm yelling into the wind. And people still say they are doing the right thing. God help us, because nobody else will when this is all over....
     
  6. D_alex8

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  7. steve2727

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    I think possibly the most worrying are the 9% that don't exist.

    It's one of those 'well known secrets' that British phones have been monitored by MI5 for years. It's never been a constitutional issue because we don't have a constitution! I just try to slip 'bomb' and 'terrorist' into every phone conversation so it will be picked up and they can waste some of their time on it. To be honest, I think think that our governments can gather as much data as they want, but they simply aren't competent and efficient enough to sift through the mass and find the vast majority of information that might be useful to them. You can't trust governments, you can however trust buerocratic incompetence, it's always existed and always will.
     
  8. Lex

    Lex
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    In Your Darkest Thoughts and Dreams
    We live in a country where they scare us to death so that they can sell us anything: clothes, cars, alarm systems, illegal actions, governmental abuses, etc. Fear and Consumption, as Marilyn Manson so aptly put it.

    It is sad that so many people don't even understand the fundamental ways in which our governmentt is supposed to work and what the limits of governmental authority are or why they were established in the first place.

    Idiots.
     
  9. Matthew

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    They are surveilling TENS OF MILLIONS of people. We must be in real trouble if the list of suspected terrorists is that big. :rolleyes:



    ****
    And a side note: It makes me wonder -- for the folks who support this information, will there ever be an issue (like this one) that makes them stand up and say, "enough"? And what would they say if this was happening on Clinton's watch? Big government, anyone?
     
  10. Lex

    Lex
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    They are using a data-mining software package that does knowledge modelling. In essense, based on phone calls (who calls who, and how often, etc)--they can create 2- and 3-dimensional models (that connect each caller to other callers) that will help them find key players in the sleeper cells. Given the data (phone calls) the program builds a model that identifies key people based on actualy behavior (phone calls) versus hunches. Not unlike the way your credit card transactions are mined so that they know when someone else has yor card and is spending in a way you normally do not.

    My doc program is all about knowledge management and predictive data-mining and I have seen the tool (a few years ago) that is similar to the one they are likely using (in this case, my school mate used it to figure out which people in an organization really had all the institutional knowledge based on on surveys of whom people would query for information to complete a task or answer a question. Not surprisingly, the people in the key positions never hold all of the institutional knowledge.).

    We, of course, are simply trying to bring this approach to educational data sets and NOT to spy on people.
     
  11. GoneA

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    careful matthew, this is all being furtively documented.

    *finds the constitution in his garbage can*
     
  12. dong20

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    Not quite true; Britain does have a constitution it's just that it's unrwitten in any unified or explicit way. We also have very powerful Human Rights protections as enacted in the Magna Carta of 1215 (esp Arts 39 & 40). It also defines indirectly and gudgingly the basics of the freedom of the Church.

    The British constitution depends on two main principles: First the Settlement Act of 1701 which among other things sought to limit the power of the Cabinet though that provision was repealed a few years later! The second and key one is the supremacy of Parliament. The others are separation of powers, an independent Judiciary, the Rule of Law and numerous other 'conventions'.


    It's the supremacy of Parliament that has got us into the dangerous situation we are now in, indeed, the one time we use the Parliament Act to enforce this constitutional principle in recent times and it's to protect bloody Foxes. You can imagine where we poor citizens rate in Government priorities.

    Having a written constutution doesn't seem to have curtailed the abuses now occuring on the other side of the pond.
     
  13. steve2727

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    Yes they'll definately be using data mining/modelling software, my company develops a program that can automatically categorise websites based on their content accurately in real time using AI (and censor them if configured to do so). If you hooked up the logs it generated to this type of modelling software you would have a very powerful internet usage analysis tool. Needless to say your government are VERY interested in our software so they no doubt have something similar in place already, and the same for phonelines
     
  14. dong20

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    I wrote some essentially simlilar stuff to analyse patterns in property sales in the UK.

    <tongue in cheek>
    Perhaps we should get a few dozen PC's together around the world to create a false SMS/Call/Phrase Pattern trail, (with proper documention of course) and see how long it takes before our doors are kicked in at 3 am by angry folk brandishing blunt objects. Trouble is that even if they new it was innocent they would just screw you over for wasting their time or for anything else they would make up and I look terrible in orange. Meanwhile, my respect for Orwell is growing.:rolleyes:
    </tongue in cheek>
     
  15. rob_just_rob

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    I sympathize. I'm surrounded by morons too.

    I've recently decided that American voters are no dumber than Canadian voters, or British, or Dutch or whoever... the problem that American voters seem to face is that the consequences of their dumbness are much more serious for themselves, and for the rest of the world, than the consequences are for being a dumb Canadian/British/Dutch/whoever voter...
     
  16. rawbone8

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    Well it seems polls can only tell you so much, depending on how the questions are worded and the order of the questions, as well as the timing (humans being so emotionally malleable to fear mongering)

    But here are two polls based on a larger samples taken within a few days of the one Dr Rock referenced. It still boggles the mind, but clearly the USA is deeply split along party lines and ideology, and that's not changing any time soon

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-14-nsa-reax-poll_x.htm
    51 percent of Americans disapproving of the NSA program and 62 percent saying that Congress should hold hearings immediately.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12771821/site/newsweek/
    53 percent of Americans say they think the NSA "goes too far in invading people's privacy."

    If I was a reporter I'd be concerned about my sources being tracked.
    But scratch that thought. Sources? Yeah right, what fucking sources?
    That's the chilling effect &#8212; silence the whistle blowers.

    There is a very legitimate concern to spy on terrorists, and prevent another attack like 9/11 or the rail bombings in the UK and Spain, but who polices the NSA and CIA considering the disturbing politicization the White House has inflicted on the management of those agencies?

    Without a free press how does the public and Congress learn when and if the line has been crossed? Even when the news is published it can be spun and spun and spun. "The optics of war". Very disturbing.
     
  17. rawbone8

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    Here's more on the reporting of "leaks"


    The FBI acknowledged late Monday that it is increasingly seeking reporters' phone records in leak investigations.

    "It used to be very hard and complicated to do this, but it no longer is in the Bush administration," said a senior federal official.



    http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/05/fbi_acknowledge.html
     
  18. D_Elijah_MorganWood

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    I'll have to borrow one of your terms, Dr. Rock: abysmal stupidity. Blame it on whatever you like; the general decline in the education available to most American children, absentee parents, a lower involvement with children as a result of technology or hell, why not junk food? Is it apathy? These kids grew up to be vapid adults. Most people know nothing of the world in which they live and apparently don't care. Our rights and freedoms are slowly eroding and nobody notices. If I wasn't such a city boy, I'd buy my 3 acres and build a self-sufficient property with solar power, pay cash for everything and tell the world to fuck off. As it's against my nature, I'll continue to be robbed of my basic rights and freedoms guaranteed by my Constitution which Dubya has apparently been using during his after dinner reading sessions on the porcelin stool. Yes, the solution to terrorism is to punish the people it harmed.

    I was watching a West Wing rerun the other night and I had to laugh...one of the characters found a typo in the Constitution. It was a misplaced comma. I wondered how many in the viewing audience could grasp the significance. What's our starting number...30something percent? Ahhhh, one-dimensional, stupid, apathetic, vapid, grease drooling Americans.
     
  19. Fireballs

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    Don;t get me wrong, I think Dubya's a scumbag. Anyone who isn't outraged by him hasn't been paying attention, and there's no shortage of people who don't pay attention, but I think there's a lot more outrage than this survey leads us to believe.

    "A total of 502 randomly selected adults were interviewed Thursday night for this survey. Margin of sampling error is five percentage points for the overall results. The practical difficulties of doing a survey in a single night represents another potential source of error."

    That's one very skewed sampling, and I haven't gotten into how the survey questions were worded. (Obviously, we don't know.)
     
  20. D_Elijah_MorganWood

    D_Elijah_MorganWood New Member

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    You're right, one sampling doesn't tell the story but there have been so many now, a trend has emerged. It saddens me.
     
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