Getting Circumcized

[Ganymede]

Well, it seems to me that if that skin is used in an operation that ultimately helps the insurance companies get richer, then the little boy who unwillingly donated that skin should get some money for it. From the perspective of the little boy, it is exploitive. It's akin to donating a person's body to science after they had died -- despite their wishes to be buried.

Actually its not urban legend, foreskin is used for skin grafts. It's funny that you look at it from the perspective of doctors making money off it and I look at it from the perspective of helping non-healing, necrotic, debrided ulcers to heal. Trust me, it would be much for lucrative for a money hungry surgeon to amputate a foot, leg, etc than it would be to staple some foreskin on there. Are there some money hungry docs, yep.....but the absolute vast majority I have met are honest people. Also keep in mind that doctors are constantly monitored for their billing and can be fined for overbilling (which everyone knows about) AND FOR UNDERBILLING!!!!! Most people dont even know about that last part. It is actually illegal for the doctor to "cut you a break" on a bill. Thanks to insurance companies.....

 

[Ganymede]

Nice to hear a woman take this perspective.

This issue is surprisingly emotional. So, when you bring logic into the discussion, such as the fact that there's little evidence that circumcision protects anyone from a disease, such as the fact that circumcised men are also prone to diseases, such as the fact that people should have a choice regarding their own body, most people just don't listen.

Most likely, this is because it is a religious issue. Even if people in the US aren't Jewish, they likely have a religious/Christian background. They are therefore aware of the Jewish custom, the idea that God thinks a circumcised penis is holier than a non-circumcised penis.

Then there's the "I want my son's penis to look like my penis" issue. Even my best friend, who is very intelligent and is non-religious, gave me this argument when I tried to talk him out of having his sons circumcised.

So, unfortunately for the little boys who have to endure this operation unwillingly, when people talk about this issue they are not thinking, but emoting. There is little logic available in this discussion.

Also, again, there is money involved. Few doctors are going to advise anyone against this procedure because that would mean a loss of money. Also, doctors are people and therefore prone to their own biases. Doctors usually have their own irrational bias in favor of circumcision.

sorry for butting in to a thread Ive not been following (new here) but I have a real problem with the first interaction a male has with his penis being such a traumatic one. BESIDES the rights issue and freedom of choice- lack of cleanliness and good hygiene can be found in cut men too- circumcision isnt the answer, good personal hygiene is- at least my understanding of the initial argument ages ago was due to frequent infections under the foreskin.
But really, wonder if there has been research done on the sexual lives of circumcised and not, and if there indicated any statistical differnces or similarities. I just think it has to affect him on some subconscious level.
Thats my 2 pennies!

 

[B_spiker067]

sorry for butting in to a thread Ive not been following (new here) but I have a real problem with the first interaction a male has with his penis being such a traumatic one. BESIDES the rights issue and freedom of choice- lack of cleanliness and good hygiene can be found in cut men too- circumcision isnt the answer, good personal hygiene is- at least my ...

Well I'm 'cut' and don't feel worse for it. I wish I knew what sex with a foreskin would feel like. I'm sure I'm desensitized to some degree. But I've never suffered any kind of infection or cleanliness issues with literally no extra effort on my part.

My uncle once joked he was jealous of the circumsized guys because they could fuck forever and not blow a nut. He was a salesman and so said it in a much funnier way than I just did.

 

[B_spiker067]

Nice to hear a woman take this perspective.

This issue is surprisingly emotional. So, when you bring logic into the discussion, such as the fact that there's little evidence that circumcision protects anyone ....

Sorry, there's alot of evidence that circumcision is healthier. New HIV stats in Africa for one that is getting a whole bunch of men there to get circumsized.

 

[Ganymede]

You do know why you can fuck forever without busting a nut, right? Because your penis is less sensitive than uncircumcised men. What this means is you have to put out more energy, and exhaust yourself more, than uncut guys -- all in an attempt to experience only part of what they feel.

The choice should've been yours and no one else's. It's so bizarre that society does not realize this. I suppose the penis is a very political body part. It belongs to "society" and not the man whose body it is attached to.

 

[baseball99]

Also, again, there is money involved. Few doctors are going to advise anyone against this procedure because that would mean a loss of money. Also, doctors are people and therefore prone to their own biases. Doctors usually have their own irrational bias in favor of circumcision.

Yep, forget about all the patient care, treatment, managing chronic diseases......doctors are in it for the money. Seems like a very poor business idea if you think about it. In the US the average debt of doctors is roughly 150,000.....that means 50% have >150 and even 225,000 is common. So we go through 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school and then come out making around 45,000 while working 80+ hours a week which comes out to be just around minimum wage for 3-5 years. Then add a couple grand to that with the same hours for a 1-3 year fellowship. Most of the circumcisions are done by residents anyways, who have absolutely no money incentive to performing the procedure, in fact, I'm sure every single resident would rather be sleeping than doing the procedure. Do the hospitals make money off it, sure.....but not the residents. And the hospitals dont even really pay the residents, the salaries are determined through medicare. Most doctors do not have a biased opinion towards circumcision and most doctors dont perform the procedure. I have met doctors who have biases but most dont.

Sometimes posts remind me of a patient in the clinic once that called one of the doctors a selfish asshole bc he wouldnt prescribe the "exact" medication a patient wanted, bc it was not indicated.....SHe then went on to yell at him for being greedy and not caring about certain groups of people. She shut up pretty quickly when he told her 1/4 of his day is spent treating patients that he knows will never be able to pay for services, on top of spending 4-8 weeks a year around the world working in 3rd world countries volunteering his time at his expense,on top of arguing with insurance companies so patients can get the meds and or procedures they need.....I know thats only one doctor, but most doctors are really good at heart but its a combination of the system and non-complaince that really numbs you after a while and it begins to hurt too much to care at such a high level eery day.

 

[baseball99]

Sorry, there's alot of evidence that circumcision is healthier. New HIV stats in Africa for one that is getting a whole bunch of men there to get circumsized.

No, the evidence is that cells with a high potential to become infected with HIV are present in uncircumcised men but not in circumcised me, making infection relatively more of a risk. Under most circumstances, circumcision is not "healthier"

 

[baseball99]

You do know why you can fuck forever without busting a nut, right? Because your penis is less sensitive than uncircumcised men. What this means is you have to put out more energy, and exhaust yourself more, than uncut guys -- all in an attempt to experience only part of what they feel.

The choice should've been yours and no one else's. It's so bizarre that society does not realize this. I suppose the penis is a very political body part. It belongs to "society" and not the man whose body it is attached to.

there are studies, and i have posted them on this site before that actually show there is no difference in the number of nerves stimulated nor in the parts of the brain that respond to pleasure in circumcised and uncircumcised men.....feelings of touch and pleasure are more complex than a simple number of nerves

 

[Ganymede]

I work in sales and I make no commission, but I am happy when sales are up because I know then I won't get shit about low sales.

Everyone in the medical field makes a lot of money, compared to the rest of the population.

In addition to the money, there is an extreme amount of ego in the medical field.

In addition to the ego, there are also many mistakes. Have you heard the statistics about how many people have instruments sewn up in them per year?

In addition to the ego, there is personal bias. Most doctors in the US are from a Christian background. Most doctors, or whoever performs circumcisions, are circumcised themselves and therefore think it's perfectly fine. Few in the medical profession are going to offer a point/counter-point argument to the parents.

My sister is a nurse. She recently lost her job for turning in a well respected doctor for coming to work with alcohol on his breath and for looking at porn on the hospital computer. She is the one who has informed me how well doctors are treated, that they get away with so much. She is the one who has enligthened me as to how much ego there is in the profession. She is also the one who enligthened me to how much money there is. She has a bachelor's degree, yet she makes $80,000 a year.

I'm god-damned sick and tired of the holier-than-thou attitude most medical professionals have. You are not gods. You are human beings who learned a skill, like everyone else who performs a job. Get off your fuckin' high horses!

Yep, forget about all the patient care, treatment, managing chronic diseases......doctors are in it for the money. Seems like a very poor business idea if you think about it. In the US the average debt of doctors is roughly 150,000.....that means 50% have >150 and even 225,000 is common. So we go through 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school and then come out making around 45,000 while working 80+ hours a week which comes out to be just around minimum wage for 3-5 years. Then add a couple grand to that with the same hours for a 1-3 year fellowship. Most of the circumcisions are done by residents anyways, who have absolutely no money incentive to performing the procedure, in fact, I'm sure every single resident would rather be sleeping than doing the procedure. Do the hospitals make money off it, sure.....but not the residents. And the hospitals dont even really pay the residents, the salaries are determined through medicare. Most doctors do not have a biased opinion towards circumcision and most doctors dont perform the procedure. I have met doctors who have biases but most dont.

Sometimes posts remind me of a patient in the clinic once that called one of the doctors a selfish asshole bc he wouldnt prescribe the "exact" medication a patient wanted, bc it was not indicated.....SHe then went on to yell at him for being greedy and not caring about certain groups of people. She shut up pretty quickly when he told her 1/4 of his day is spent treating patients that he knows will never be able to pay for services, on top of spending 4-8 weeks a year around the world working in 3rd world countries volunteering his time at his expense,on top of arguing with insurance companies so patients can get the meds and or procedures they need.....I know thats only one doctor, but most doctors are really good at heart but its a combination of the system and non-complaince that really numbs you after a while and it begins to hurt too much to care at such a high level eery day.

 

[snoozan]

I didn't circumcize my son. I didn't want him having surgery or have a wound to care for along with a newborn. I want him to make the choice when he's older. If he feels that for whatever reason it is better for him to be cut, he can do that. I don't think the surgical pain as an adult is unbearable and inhumane-- shit, I had major abdominal surgery just to get the kid out. That's what painkillers are for.

However, the 9000000000000 threads on it get tiresome. I think we all need to agree that we're not going to agree and quit the self righteousness on both sides and just let people have different opinions. Medical opinion on the procedure is changing, but most (not all, most) cut men still have a good sex life.

One thing that concerns me is that so many young men that are cut feel like they are somehow inadequate or missing out on something that was their birthright. I think it affects some of them to the point where they can't enjoy their sex life-- and I think in a lot of cases it's psychological more than physical. To me, it sounds a lot like the inadequacy that men feel if they don't have large penises in that neither one are as huge a deal as they are made out to be and for the most part neither are able to be changed. Also, lot of times these men feel bitterness towards their parents, who, in most cases, were not given a choice or were poorly informed.

I hope that at some point we can move beyond this debate and instead concentrate on making sure our sons have healthy views of their sexuality no matter what their penis looks like. We put too much emphasis on the minutiae of the penis in our society.

 

[B_spiker067]

You do know why you can fuck forever without busting a nut, right? Because your penis is less sensitive than uncircumcised men. What this means is you have to put out more energy, and exhaust yourself more, than uncut guys -- all in an attempt to experience only part of what they feel.

The choice should've been yours and no one else's. It's so bizarre that society does not realize this. I suppose the penis is a very political body part. It belongs to "society" and not the man whose body it is attached to.

Obviously no one (0.001%) would choose circumcision given the choice. You are a tard.:smile:

 

[baseball99]

I work in sales and I make no commission, but I am happy when sales are up because I know then I won't get shit about low sales.

Everyone in the medical field makes a lot of money, compared to the rest of the population.

In addition to the money, there is an extreme amount of ego in the medical field.

In addition to the ego, there are also many mistakes. Have you heard the statistics about how many people have instruments sewn up in them per year?

In addition to the ego, there is personal bias. Most doctors in the US are from a Christian background. Most doctors, or whoever performs circumcisions, are circumcised themselves and therefore think it's perfectly fine. Few in the medical profession are going to offer a point/counter-point argument to the parents.

My sister is a nurse. She recently lost her job for turning in a well respected doctor for coming to work with alcohol on his breath and for looking at porn on the hospital computer. She is the one who has informed me how well doctors are treated, that they get away with so much. She is the one who has enligthened me as to how much ego there is in the profession. She is also the one who enligthened me to how much money there is. She has a bachelor's degree, yet she makes $80,000 a year.

I'm god-damned sick and tired of the holier-than-thou attitude most medical professionals have. You are not gods. You are human beings who learned a skill, like everyone else who performs a job. Get off your fuckin' high horses!

you apparently have a lot of anger for whatever reason.....it might be best to deal with that rather than painting a picture of an entire profession based on your limited interactions with doctors. It may also be the part of the country you're in, I dont know. What is obvious is you definitely do seem to have pent up anger for some reason, whcih can not be good for your overall health and well being

cheers

 

[B_spiker067]

No, the evidence is that cells with a high potential to become infected with HIV are present in uncircumcised men but not in circumcised me, making infection relatively more of a risk. Under most circumstances, circumcision is not "healthier"

WTF, those cells are there because of the foreskin.

And BTW, Ever hear of smegma?

 

[Mr._dB]

It's a stupid pointless barbaric tribal custom that should have died out centuries ago.

 

[Ganymede]

You are a tard for not realizing that what I'm saying agrees with what you're saying. Few would choose if given the choice; the problem is that most of us in the US WERE NOT GIVEN A CHOICE.

Obviously no one (0.001%) would choose circumcision given the choice. You are a tard.:smile:

 

[BigA]

Would I circumcise my child? No. But I might have a doctor do it. Also why make the poll public? That just makes people feel more pressure to go with the predominant opinion.

Funny, the topic of circumcision came up with my mom. We were speaking a little more explicitly than usual, and she said that is one way she is prejudiced. She would not want to be with one that's not cut. not that that has any relevance

 

[BigA]

You are a tard for not realizing that what I'm saying agrees with what you're saying. Few would choose if given the choice; the problem is that most of us in the US WERE NOT GIVEN A CHOICE.

what he is saying is noone would want to have it done NOW. I, however, am glad that it was done as a baby. That's why I can't really agree with those who voted let him decide when he's older, with all the trepidation and cognizance of the process. Also, I believe that it doesn't turn out the same when you get circumcised as an adult. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I heard that on this site.

 

[Ganymede]

I don't know where you live. I live in the US, a capitalist society that spends $400 billion a year on its military to invade sovereign nations, meanwhile most citizens cannot afford health care and go without.

Yes, I'm angry about the situation of health care in this country, and so are most Americans. Most Americans agree that we should have health care, but we aren't given it because the insurance companies don't want us to have it.

As for my health and well being, I'm in incredible shape and am relatively happy with my life. It's just that this is a heated topic for me. I was involved with anti-circumcision groups a while back. All the arguments I've presented here are standard arguments in the anti-circumcision movement. If you aren't American then you may not know that about 80% of American males are circumcised. Israel and the US are the two industrialized nations with the highest rate of this operation.

you apparently have a lot of anger for whatever reason.....it might be best to deal with that rather than painting a picture of an entire profession based on your limited interactions with doctors. It may also be the part of the country you're in, I dont know. What is obvious is you definitely do seem to have pent up anger for some reason, whcih can not be good for your overall health and well being

cheers

 

[Snozzle]

whats your opinion on abortion and human rights?

It's also a human rights issue, but a very different one, because the personhood of the zygote-embryo-foetus-baby is a central part of the issue. The trouble with the abortion debate is that hardly anyone in it can get their heads around the (simple, I would have thought) fact that pregnancy is a process, and the central entity is not the same at the end as it was at the beginning.

Apart from that, I'm not going to get involved because (I'm guessing) if I don't grant that the newly fertilized zygote is a human being with the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, baseball is going to call me a hypocrite for maintaining that born babies have a right to keep all their penises (and clitorises).

So I'm going to leave him in the dark exactly what I think.

 

[Snozzle]

there are studies, and i have posted them on this site before that actually show there is no difference in the number of nerves stimulated nor in the parts of the brain that respond to pleasure in circumcised and uncircumcised men..

Please post them again, I'm not familiar with any work on the number of nerves stimulated, or the parts of the brain involved. You do know that Masters and Johnson, oft quoted in the form "circumcision makes no difference" didn't study the foreskin at all?

...feelings of touch and pleasure are more complex than a simple number of nerves

Certainly, but cut nerves off = feel less is generally true and hardly rocket science.