Girlfriend Is Very Pro-circumcision

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The other night I was out with my girlfriend, Debbie, and two of her friends from uni (college), a young married couple, Jess and Matt, late 20s, who were visiting the UK on their holidays. My girlfriend is very good friends with them as they were her housemates for most of the time she was in California studying for her degree.

Jess is expecting a boy in a few months’ time and I don’t remember exactly how but the question of circumcision was brought up. To my surprise, Debbie became very vocal on the matter, in favour of circumcision. She then turned to me and went something along the lines of “Jack had to go through it a few years ago and it wasn’t the nicest experience for him. I’d definitely do it early if given the choice.” I just nodded and told them that it isn’t customary for boys to be done at birth in Britain, and yes, some end up needing it later, and yes, it is a bit of a nuisance, but it isn’t a big deal. Some further points were discussed on how the surgery went, whether it made sex better or worse for me (it had no change) etc. before we switched the topic after I began feeling quite embarrassed after all the chat on my penis.

For context, I got circumcised in my early twenties after some recurring flares of a chronic skin condition named LS or BXO - it wasn’t affecting my quality of life significantly, but my derm wanted to play it safe as there was a 5% or so lifetime risk of it randomly turning to cancer, so we agreed to snip it for peace of mind. I was intimate with Debbie at that time, so she was aware of the process and was very supportive throughout. Very pleased with the result and we never discussed it much afterwards.

Anyway, on the way home I confronted Debbie because I didn’t know her to care much about routine circumcision, we live in the UK after all. Quite a heated conversation ensured where she mentioned that she is indeed very much for it for a variety of reasons. Her main points were:

- it makes little difference sexually (and I agree, having had it both ways);
- it is healthier (maybe, I had to do it and I know of a couple of other mates who ended up with phimosis in their late teens and had to do it as well);
- it is much less of a nuisance if done early (research and anecdotal evidence seems to agree - having your penis stitched up for three weeks was bearable, but not the high point of my life)

I agreed with her on all that, but mentioned that there is also an ethical side of it whereby you are denying someone the right to choose for themselves when they are old enough to do so. She dismissed that on the grounds that there are many more choices you make for your children and this one is not that significant compared to how much of a caring parent you are, or where you send them to school.

I ended up stopping debating here but I am worried this might come up later. Marriage and children are not too far in the future after all, but if this does come up were we to have a boy, I don’t know how to react. Should I try and settle it now or worry about it later (and pray for girls)?
 

MickeyLee

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Yeah. Ya lady friend is hella misinformed about a good many RIC stats.

I would post more but these threads always end with a heated argument and someone usually gets banned.

As far as relationship potential... If something is important to you, anything really, and you feel like you might have to acquiesce to ya partner's viewpoint to avoid confrontation.. Well, that's fucked.
 

LaFemme

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I’m sure not going to get into details about pros and cons. I will say that this is a really important decision, and it affects your future. This issue needs to be discussed thoroughly and settled before planning on having a family. Just be thankful this came up now and not when you’re about to have a son.
 
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Yeah. Ya lady friend is hella misinformed about a good many RIC stats.

I would post more but these threads always end with a heated argument and someone usually gets banned.

As far as relationship potential... If something is important to you, anything really, and you feel like you might have to acquiesce to ya partner's viewpoint to avoid confrontation.. Well, that's fucked.

Absolutely agreed that I do not want this to turn into a debate over circumcision.

On the relationship itself, in 5 years that is the only point I’ve found where there does not seem to be a consensus, or at least a compromise. I’m just trying to understand why she has that position and whether I should tackle it now at the risk of arguing over something that is not yet an issue (no babies on the horizon just yet), or leave it and hope she’ll be more understanding later when and if we get to the point where it becomes an issue. It is hard to find someone you like as it is, wouldn’t want this to hurt an otherwise healthy relationship. I know it’s easy to say just fuck it and go solo, but that way most of us would end up single. Whether that’s a good or a bad thing of course depends on the individual, but in my case I feel like it wouldn’t be worth ruining an otherwise perfectly happy relationship over such a matter.


I’m sure not going to get into details about pros and cons. I will say that this is a really important decision, and it affects your future. This issue needs to be discussed thoroughly and settled before planning on having a family. Just be thankful this came up now and not when you’re about to have a son.


Thanks - so it is likely to be better to nip it in the bud then.

I had a more thorough think about it and I think I kind of see where she is coming from. When I was about to have my surgery she mentioned that one of her exes had a very tight foreskin and that made sex quite awkward, so she’s never been a big foreskin fan. In one of our first trips together I had to turn down sex due to a BXO flare-up that caused rashes on my foreskin a few days in exacerbated by the warm weather. Subsequently she’d always fully retract me before going anywhere near my penis and keeping it back during oral and handjobs. So I guess she might have a subconscious dislike for foreskins, though I never challenged her on that. I ended up getting circumcised not long into our relationship and everything has been fine since.

Other than myself and that tight foreskinned ex I believe all her other partners were cut since she did live for four years in the US. So perhaps her sample size is not large enough to understand that not everyone ends up with a dysfunctional foreskin, but at the same time she sees no harm in RIC. I find it hard to counter her on the physical/sexual aspects of it since, well, I don’t feel like I’m missing anything now, but it is the psychological dimension of it that she doesn’t seem to grasp.


My first thought...is Debbie a Devorah?



ETA, I’m a Rivka.

No, to the best of my knowledge she has no Jewish roots. I think Devorah has been anglicised long enough this side of the pond for it not to matter anymore. So it’s unlikely to be cultural/religious. My guess is on some bad experience with uncircumcised partners, as discussed above.
 
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Scarletbegonia

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Another aspect...
Women typically shoulder the greater portion of childcare in a mixed marriage/parenting partnership.
This means women are the first to deal with an infant’s foreskin, and likely are the trainers of cleanliness for the penis.
When that gets paired with experience, decisions get complicated.

it’s a funny standoff, and I live in a country where penile circumcision is still pretty much rote.
Intact males are the minority still in the US.
Both parents weigh in, and by my stance of my body, my choice and only the uterus decides in other medical interventions, objectively, I’d say the one with dangly bits has more of a say, but I already distrusted the donor dude and his ability to make decisions on kiddo’s behalf. He tended to do what his mom said, as he didn’t think about things himself. (Yes, it was a fantastically bad pairing. I remedied it)
Momma Bear Mind kicked in for me.

My son was cut in hospital, a violation of my faith. It’s on his non Jewish father’s shoulders, as he didn’t grasp that, yes, I’d agreed to allow kiddo to be as his father was (cut), but on my religious terms, (and I’d found a “hippie mohel” who would be very light in the snip. Which would leave just more than 3/4 of the foreskin, fulfilling the faith requirements, but leaving most physical benefits or not messing with the natural system. I thought it a fine compromise, as I was the one resistant to cutting), at eight days. We were in hospital for a total of four, due to some issues on my part.
I woke from a nap to find my kid and his DNA donor gone. Thirty minutes later they return, and I discovered the reason when I changed the kiddo.

Needless to say, kiddo grew up with shared custody. This was the first of several overrides.

May you have daughters! May this be a non issue.

ETA yes, the daughter line is more joke than not. It does remove the friction point.
 
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@Scarletbegonia

Thank you for your thoughts and sorry to hear about what you went through with your son. Doing anything without consulting the other person in the relationship is a very shitty move, regardless of what it is, and especially when is something that will be with your son forever. I hope it all worked fine in the end though.

Fair point on the maternal side of childcare. In my case the situation is rather tricky.

There’s one point I forgot to mention. Even though here in Britain it is very unusual for boys to be done routinely, my family is a bit odd in that circumcision sort of was the norm on my mother’s side - nothing religious, circumcision used to be quite popular in the early 20th century in Britain among middle class families and it just stuck around for a while in some cases. I was the first generation not to get the snip at my mum’s request, but I recall I grew up with a fairly tight skin and there was a lot of quarrelling over having me done but my mum stood her ground. I do think I was forcefully retracted at some point however and the foreskin eventually loosened up with puberty - whether that led to the later problems with BXO I don’t know, but it is a thought I used to entertain. The whole experience left me with a mixed bag of feelings over the matter, and I shared most of my background on this with Debbie when I was still trying to convince myself that I need to have it done.

I feel like what she got out of this is that my mother might have shown poor parenting at explicitly opposing circumcision for me when some might say there was a good case for it. I don’t blame my mother, but there is a point that all my subsequent foreskin troubles could have been avoided had she not broken with tradition. Whether I would have been upset at not having been given the choice, I don’t know. This is very much less of a contentious issue here than it is in the US I think, so I’d have probably been fine, but who knows.

Anyway, I think Debbie’s point is that since she’d be the mother, she’d be keen to do what is best and sadly she ended up with a partner that exemplifies what can go wrong when you do not circumcise (even though I am aware I was in the minority). Ironically that partner is also trying to talk her out of doing what she thinks my mother should have done with me, which might make sound like a hypocrite.

Yep, it’s complicated. Probably best to pray for daughters after all.
 
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MickeyLee

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I am firmly in the body autonomy camp. Unlike vaccines and a million other choices a parent makes for their children RIC is done on personal opinion/belief and not on any basis of medical benefit.

You had an issue with your foreskin. Balanced off the medical history of millions of men who experience no health issues at all with their junk. *my boy is intact with no health/comfort issues*

I wouldn't pierce my hypothetical daughter's ears without her consent. Certainly would never dream of removing a body part from a child without damn good cause.

Before ya talk to ya lady friend about the fate of ya non-existent kinderhoppers decide where you stand and how important of an issue RIC is to you. For you it might be a simple medical procedure. To me it's having say over what happens to your body and limitations on where personal belief ends and parental responsibility begins.

For me, probably because I am a woman and a queer living in the states, self determination and ownership of choice regarding my body are huge issues. To me RIC would a sticking point. Cuz for me it's a bigger issue than a bit of skin.
 

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Very interesting. I will say this. Give her a chance to come around. When our son was born we didn’t think twice about the snip snip - his dad is cut, in fact I never (in my limited sexual experience) encountered an uncut guy - anyway I thought it was the norm and for some good reason. Today, I’m not sure we’d have made the same call. That isn’t much of a pat except to say that viewpoints change over time. Maybe if your GF is from the USA she just doesn’t realize there are reasons not to go the snip snip route.
 
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Thanks everyone for your help and apologies for asking inappropriate questions. I have received some very serious messages from males who made a point to explain how infant circumcision is almost criminal and highly immoral and it is deeply troubling that I had the cheek to bring up such an abhorrent issue. I kindly ask any moderator to delete this thread as my intention was not to upset people.
 

LaFemme

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Sorry, can’t delete the thread as it has too many responses.
 

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Thanks everyone for your help and apologies for asking inappropriate questions. I have received some very serious messages from males who made a point to explain how infant circumcision is almost criminal and highly immoral and it is deeply troubling that I had the cheek to bring up such an abhorrent issue. I kindly ask any moderator to delete this thread as my intention was not to upset people.

direct them to any of the circ threads already here.
 

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Don’t worry about the trolls. You’ve come to the right place in AAW. I don’t think I need to say much else as the ladies have said it all.

However, I will add that I recently found out that a few of my girlfriends got their boys circumcised at a few days old. I was kind of horrified. Circumcision isn’t that common here so I was wondering why... one friend said that it was tradition on her husbands side and the other said that it’s for a cleanliness aspect. Can’t recall if she also said that her husband has to get a circumcision later on in life due to that.
 
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I've never understood the reasoning behind circumcision - male or female. Both should be illegal unless for specific health issues IMHO.

Hopefully your GF will inform herself and develop a more mature stand on the issue. Otherwise points her towards this thread.
 

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There’s a pretty good documentary on Netflix, “American Circumcision” that discusses the issue. I know that it educated me quite a bit on the topic, as opposed to some of the vitriol expressed on this site. A viewing and calm discussion afterwards might help your girlfriend question her current beliefs. It’s good to be open-minded and question why you believe certain things. Just being told it’s wrong or evil won’t help.

Again, this an important discussion to have before you consider starting a family.
 

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Hi @jack7700w
It's certainly an interesting topic and I would say routine circumcision is more a cultural thing, I too live in the UK, have had two sons who we didn't opt for circumcision. My husband isn't circumcised either (altho his foreskin is naturally quite short for an uncircumcised guy) he has never experienced any issues, I guess if there are medical concerns then sure it's the right thing to do, otherwise surely whatever you believe in (religion, evolution or whatever) the foreskin is there to protect the penis to some degree.
I know some people do it for aesthetic reasons, but this is surely only derived from what people are used to seeing especially these days with circumcised penises all over the internet.
If I were to voice my personal opinion, I'd say that if there's no obvious reason for circumcision at birth then leave it up to the individual later in life, it's there for a reason and as long as an individual is fit and well that's what matters X
 
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