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ericbear

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Originally posted by jonb@Mar 23 2005, 03:03 PM
Besides, True Christians™ are redeemed and everyone else, even Gandhi, is damned.
[post=293454]Quoted post[/post]​

Actually, no. The primitive Baptists and similar sects believe that most true, believeing Christians are going to hell anyway. Only a very few, the elect, will enter heaven. Most of them do not believe they are among the elect, which makes the belief all the more mindless. The elect were predetermined at the dawn of time, so it doesn't really matter what they do; they will go to heaven, and no one else will. Many religions have the idea of a small number of elect, but differ in how many elect there are, such as the 144,000 claimed by the Jehovah Whitnesses, etc. The primitive Baptists do not claim a specific number, but make it clear that it is far fewer than all who have accepted their faith as true believers. Those who may have faith, but nevertheless will not enter heaven, are given the non-prejudicial title of "non-elect." Those who sin without faith, and likewise do not enter heaven, are the "condemned."

On the other hand, the more liberal Baptist church in my upbringing taught that all true believers in Christ were saved, and generally rejected the doctrine of the elect. The primitive Baptist doctrine makes it clear that this is not the case; Christ's salvation applies to the elect only:

"As God doth not will that each individual of mankind should be saved, so neither did He will that Christ should properly and immediately die for each individual of mankind, whence it follows that, though the blood of Christ, from its own intrinsic dignity, was sufficient for the redemption of all men, yet, in consequence of His Father's appointment, He shed it intentionally, and therefore effectually and immediately, for the elect only."

In other words, Christ could have redeemed all believers, but God restricted the redemption to the elect only. Throughout the interpretation of scriptures, you will find that they put in little notes clarifying this. For example, they add the following editorial clarification when discussing a verse in Romans viii: "He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all [i.e., for all us elect persons], ..." In other words, "all" doesn't mean ALL, it means a just few, the elect. I find this particularly ironic, since they also insist that the scriptures be interpreted rigorously literally (hence, creation took seven 24-hour days, not seven figurative periods, etc.) but freely redefine words to support the idea of the elect.

There is nothing a person can do to secure his status as one of the elect. To quote the doctrine: "...all merit, worthiness and good qualifications of theirs were entirely excluded from having any influence on the Divine will why they should be chosen, redeemed and glorified above others...."

Further, there is nothing one can do to loose his status as elect. In fact, the doctrine recognises that the elect are most likely guilty of sin, but receive redemption from Christ, and thus enter heaven. However, a completely sinless man, if non-elect, must burn in hell.

The Quotations are taken from OBSERVATIONS ON THE DIVINE ATTRIBUTES Neccesary To Be Premised In Order To Our Better Understanding
THE DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION
by Jerom Zanchius, 1516-1590, which you can read here:

http://www.ondoctrine.com/2zan0001.htm

You can read Zanchius's THE DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION itself, as translated by Toplady in the late 18th century, here:

http://www.ondoctrine.com/2zan0002.htm

The godhatesfags website has it a bit mixed up, with a link claiming to be the Toplady translation of the Doctrine, but which actually provides the text of the Observations. An important thing to note is that none of this is recent thinking, but came from a "reformation" of the church hundreds of years ago.
 

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Hi,

This type of outrage is what gives a bad name to christians. How dare him! The name alone makes me furious! The problem is as with any other form of intolerance people will take any opportunity to use religion to justify their own bigotry. I am a Christian, but I view people as people and I believe that we all have enough wrong in our lives to condemn each of us to hell many times over.What is more insidious than pride and hatred?

Naughty
 

taven

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Whenever I confront this type of hatred and stupidity I first start to hyperventilate. Then I experience intense hopelessness due to the immensity of the evil in the world. Next I hit raging anger, followed by a determination to refuse to give in to the philistines who perpetrate this evil.

My alltime (at the moment) default thought is that Afghanistan had the Taliban and we have the Baptists. Then I think...but surely there must be at least a few reasonable Baptists (read fundies) around, but my mind says, "can you say oxymoron?"

Then I have to admit I'm as prejudiced in my own way as anyone else. (But I'm right.) So much for me trying to be reasonable.
 

robertomuro

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Even the extremely conservative and base of christiandom roman-catholic church is not anti-gay in anyway. You can even be gay and be a priest. The only thing they are against is sex before marriage and as you can't be gay and married..

One very interesting point that stuck in my head studying psychology is referred problems. People tend to see problems in other people which are actually just repressed feelings or problems in themselves.

Is what he preaches christian? No! (according to all respected christian authority)

Jesus spread love, he spreads hatred and division. Need I say anymore?

Misquoting the bible and then telling people whos going to hell and isn't is just plain blasphemous.. Good luck to him as he might end up being one of the only people on the list actually going there.
 

Freddie53

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My alltime (at the moment) default thought is that Afghanistan had the Taliban and we have the Baptists. Then I think...but surely there must be at least a few reasonable Baptists (read fundies) around, but my mind says, "can you say oxymoron?"

Quote: Freddie

A point must be made about the Baptists. There are three groups of Baptists, The Primitive Baptists who believe in the elect and only a certain group will go to heaven. The Free Will Baptists who believe that all people have the free well to become Christians and then the free will to decide not to be Christians and the traditional Baptists who believe that everyone has a free will to decide whether to become a Christian or not. This group of Baptists also believe that Christ died for all. They believe though that once a person decides to become a Christian that can't be reversed. "Once saved, always saved." The vast majority of Baptists fall into the traditional group.

The book of Revelation refers to the 144,000 that will be saved. The Bible is full of numerology. The number 144 means infinite so 144,000 means extremely infinite. So by that definition the number of people in heaven is hugh, uncountable by normal human standards at least those available at the time Revelation was written.

And Jonb, the experts who know when the world was created are interesting. I myself fall into the group that says that each day refers to a period of time in which things were done. The earth wasn't even created at first. Several days past before the earth was created, so there couldn't have been earth days before the earth was created.

The Bible is about ideas, not about interpreting everything so literally at least that is my opinion.

I can see that I helped set off a wave of people agreeing with me about the "Reverand's ideas on homosexuality and other topics."

Glad to see so many posting.

To those who doubt Christianity based on the distorted bigpted false preachers, listen to the rest of us. Consider the religion that Jesus established. One based on love, forgiveness, compassion, and grace. That is what I believe that Jesus taught. That is the only Chrisitanity I can accept. There is room in the tent of Christianity that I believe in for Roman Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox and the Coptics. I count evangelicals as protestants. Yes, fundie Christians can get into heaven as I undnerstand it because Jesus is very forgiving.

And in closing, I lift up special prayers for the Pope. I know how much he would like to lead the Easter litergies this year. I pray that he will be able to do it at least one more year. The Pope in my book is a very special man. The Pope has shown the world how to live. He has shown how to lead a silent revolution and free all of Eastern Europe and even affect the liberation of Russia itself. He has shown the world how to forgive. He has opposed war and instead pushed for peaceful settlement for disputes. The world has been truly blessed by his presence. He will be missed when his time comes to leave this world.

Tomorrow is Holy Thursday, in many churches inlcuding mine, special services will be held. We will be having a "high" communion service commorating the first Service of Word and Table that Jesus instituted.

Friday is a day of sorrow and gladness. We sorrow for the pain that Jesus suffered. We rejoice for the atoning grace that came from Jesus's shed blood.

Then Sunday is a spendid day. A Service of Resurrection from the Dead will be celebrated in All Christiandom.

So I say to all Christians on this site. Lent is almost over. We will Celebrate the Risen Christ together come Sunday.

Peace to all. Christians and non Christians alike. May you have peace this week.

Love you all,

Freddie
 

jonb

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ericbear:
That's why I said True Christians™. Usually ™ of something not trademarked is used to indicate irony, such as "Oh, that blue-eyed Cherokee's a shaman™." (Actually, any time an Indian uses the term "shaman", it's out of irony; shaman is actually an Evenki word. They live in Outer Manchuria.)

Freddie:
I was mostly pointing out how science teachers in general, biology and geology in particular, can't teach a thing without getting a horse head from the fundie mafia. Phelps is just the latest capo in a line of many.
 

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Originally posted by Freddie53@Mar 24 2005, 03:15 AM
So I say to all Christians on this site. Lent is almost over. We will Celebrate the Risen Christ together come Sunday.

Freddie, don't forget that we have a few Eastern Orthodox brethren here. They won't celebrate Easter until May 3.

Back to Phelps. I am gay, and I give and receive love. According to John 1 4:7, "Beloved, let us love one another because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten of God and has knowledge of God." Let Phelps say what he will. The verse I quoted affirms that I have a relationship with God, that I know God. Phelps can't dispute that because it is scriptural and he espouses literal interpretation of the Bible.
 

Freddie53

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Jancinto: The below quote is very correct. Let me add another, Jesus said, "If you have done it into the least of these my brethern, you have done it unto me." So I would be careful condemning any person or mistreating them.

Originally posted by alwaysthere+Mar 24 2005, 03:20 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(alwaysthere &#064; Mar 24 2005, 03:20 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-DoubleMeatWhopper@Mar 24 2005, 12:08 AM
Back to Phelps. I am gay, and I give and receive love. According to John 1 4:7, "Beloved, let us love one another because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten of God and has knowledge of God." Let Phelps say what he will. The verse I quoted affirms that I have a relationship with God, that I know God. Phelps can&#39;t dispute that because it is scriptural and he espouses literal interpretation of the Bible.
[post=293606]Quoted post[/post]​




EDIT: Holy shit, I just saw picture of Fred Phelps, and it&#39;s enough to send children running. I hope I look that good when I&#39;m 390 years old.
It&#39;s no wonder he&#39;s heading this campaign against gays... If he approached me, I&#39;d gladly convert to heterosexuality just so I didn&#39;t have to look at the guy.
Man, the guy LOOKS evil, nevermind his actions.
God must really hate him. You don&#39;t make somebody look like that if you don&#39;t have pure hatred for them&#33;
[post=293610]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]
No God does not hate Phelps, but this is what happens to a man when that man allows evil to take over his being.
 

jeepwranglerboi

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Like many others here, this site literally makes me nauseous. It makes me so sad to see this kind of ignorance and hatred being directed towards any group. I actually feel sorry for these people. However, I found it kinda ironic that in the photo section there are pictures of little boys with their arms around one another wearing T-shirts that say &#39;God Hates Fags&#39; on it. Made me laugh&#33;
 

MisterMark

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I was worried that I might find the site disturbing, but instead, I just laughed&#33; These people are so over-the-top that it&#39;s comical. I mean, "God Hates Sweden"?&#33; lol... That one especially caught my attention because I studied Swedish for a couple of years and visited for a couple of months. As most people probably know, it&#39;s one of the most benign countries in the world.

I&#39;m a lot more concerned about people like George Bush, Bill Frist, Sam Brownback, and Rick Santorum than I ever will be about Fred Phelps.
 

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Originally posted by MisterMark@Mar 24 2005, 11:58 AM
I was worried that I might find the site disturbing, but instead, I just laughed&#33;  These people are so over-the-top that it&#39;s comical.  I mean, "God Hates Sweden"?&#33;  lol...  That one especially caught my attention because I studied Swedish for a couple of years and visited for a couple of months.  As most people probably know, it&#39;s one of the most benign countries in the world. 

I&#39;m a lot more concerned about people like George Bush, Bill Frist, Sam Brownback, and Rick Santorum than I ever will be about Fred Phelps.
[post=293678]Quoted post[/post]​

I tend to agree. I have to admit I chuckled and shook my head a bit too over the "God Hates Sweden" nonsense. But I think I fear him a bit more because of his ability to inspire hatred of Christians among the homosexual community, which in turn only fuels more hatred of the homosexual community.
 

Dr Rock

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yeah, that&#39;s always been my reaction too. I&#39;m sure if I had to actually live with these whackos nearby, I&#39;d eventually lose my temper and beat the shit out of some of them, but reading some senile, wife-beating child-abuser&#39;s drooling rants about how he hates pretty much everyone and everything in the entire world just gets a :eyes: from me. I can read the same kind of shit in any angst-ridden 14 year-old&#39;s livejournal, after all. it&#39;s just funnier because this guy is like 80 years old and demonstrably insane.
 
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carolinacurious:
I was worried that I might find the site disturbing, but instead, I just laughed&#33; These people are so over-the-top that it&#39;s comical. I mean, "God Hates Sweden"?&#33; lol... That one especially caught my attention because I studied Swedish for a couple of years and visited for a couple of months. As most people probably know, it&#39;s one of the most benign countries in the world.

I&#39;m a lot more concerned about people like George Bush, Bill Frist, Sam Brownback, and Rick Santorum than I ever will be about Fred Phelps.

I&#39;m kinda with you on this, although I haven&#39;t visited the site in years and don&#39;t feel the need to update my "research". It does bother me that young "pre-fag bashers" might visit this site and think that this is ok. It also bothers me that a young person struggling with his/her identity might come across this nonsense. It does make me sick to my stomach to realize that there is anyone out there who feels this way. I do take the picketing of funerals that they do more seriously, although I agree that they probably do more harm to their cause than good (by everything they do actually), it&#39;s got to be horrible for the people involved.

I would see Santorum just as comically except for some reason people keep electing him to public office.
 

ericbear

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Hockeytiger

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Originally posted by ericbear+Mar 24 2005, 12:24 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ericbear &#064; Mar 24 2005, 12:24 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-MisterMark@Mar 24 2005, 10:58 AM
I&#39;m a lot more concerned about people like George Bush....
[post=293678]Quoted post[/post]​


The godhatesfags sister site, www.godhatesamerica.com, is worried about George W Bush, too. They say he a left leaning liberal closet-gay that is busy filling the US government with fags&#33; Look here:

http://www.godhatesamerica.com/ghfmir/stealthgay.html
http://www.godhatesamerica.com/html/91101.html
[post=293684]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]

:lol:
 

Dr Rock

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Originally posted by ericbear+Mar 24 2005, 06:24 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ericbear &#064; Mar 24 2005, 06:24 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-MisterMark@Mar 24 2005, 10:58 AM
I&#39;m a lot more concerned about people like George Bush....
[post=293678]Quoted post[/post]​


The godhatesfags sister site, www.godhatesamerica.com, is worried about George W Bush, too. They say he a left leaning liberal closet-gay that is busy filling the US government with fags&#33; Look here:

http://www.godhatesamerica.com/ghfmir/stealthgay.html
http://www.godhatesamerica.com/html/91101.html
[post=293684]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]

from wikipedia&#39;s phelps article:

The length and incoherancy of many of his recent sermons, as well as a large number of bizarre claims (including "George Bush worships Mr. Peanut, whose name is the great God Goober"), suggest to many that he is suffering from Alzheimer&#39;s disease, senility, or has suffered brain damage due to his amphetamine and barbiturate addiction in the 1960s..

so there you have it, folks. bush is not only a closet faggot, he also worships the Great God Goober.
 
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Randarak: I look at things like that website, shake my head, and wonder "Why people cant just leave each other be? Is it really that difficult?" I&#39;ll never understand it.
 
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MikeO: These individuals actually came to my home town to stage a "protest". I can&#39;t deal with people peddeling hate.
 

malito

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I am cautious to enter this debate. It seems to stir feelings on both sides of our humanity. And mostly (not all) many feel about as much hate toward the "phelpies" as they do toward many of us.
First of all I want to say that I am a Christian. I started my relationship with Christ as my savior in 1970. I am now 55. There have been many things in my life that have helped me develop the thoughts I have now.
It would be fair to give a little back ground so maybe you can understand my thoughts and why I have them.
I was raised to hate. Very much like these people. I learned to hate people like DMW, Dee, Dr. Rock, etc. I was taught to dislike people of different color than myself and life style (especially homosexual).
For almost 21 years those were the things I understood and believed. Then all that changed. First came Jesus. Then a young Puerto Rican, whom shall remain nameless here.
You see what I have learned is that Christ did not come to earth to start a religion, but to destroy one. More than anything else Jesus wants all men, and women, to have a personal realtionship with Him. And because of that relationship to care for and love each other.
I&#39;m not even going to visit that site. I&#39;ll take your word for it that it is what you say it is. I am going to say that what we have here, the ability to support one another, is more what Christ wants for mankind than anything else.
Doctine: means correct teaching
Denomination: those who cling to one or more teachings that differ one way or another from another.
It is amazing how so many denominations have the correct teaching
Religion: is the efforts of man to reach God
Christ: is God&#39;s effort to reach mankind.
God loves all of the same amount. We shall see that at the cross of calvary tomorrow. And gives us the same gift of eternal life as demonstrated by the empty tomb.
Sitting on the back row of church one evening, I rebuked my pastor, when he said that God&#39;s love is conditional. There is nothing conditional about God&#39;s love. He offers the same love to ALL&#33;&#33;&#33; The way we experience it may be different because of our circumstances.
I could go on, but need I? Those people do NOT represent the God of forgivness and love I have found.