Originally posted by jonb@Mar 23 2005, 03:03 PM
Besides, True Christians™ are redeemed and everyone else, even Gandhi, is damned.[post=293454]Quoted post[/post]
Actually, no. The primitive Baptists and similar sects believe that most true, believeing Christians are going to hell anyway. Only a very few, the elect, will enter heaven. Most of them do not believe they are among the elect, which makes the belief all the more mindless. The elect were predetermined at the dawn of time, so it doesn't really matter what they do; they will go to heaven, and no one else will. Many religions have the idea of a small number of elect, but differ in how many elect there are, such as the 144,000 claimed by the Jehovah Whitnesses, etc. The primitive Baptists do not claim a specific number, but make it clear that it is far fewer than all who have accepted their faith as true believers. Those who may have faith, but nevertheless will not enter heaven, are given the non-prejudicial title of "non-elect." Those who sin without faith, and likewise do not enter heaven, are the "condemned."
On the other hand, the more liberal Baptist church in my upbringing taught that all true believers in Christ were saved, and generally rejected the doctrine of the elect. The primitive Baptist doctrine makes it clear that this is not the case; Christ's salvation applies to the elect only:
"As God doth not will that each individual of mankind should be saved, so neither did He will that Christ should properly and immediately die for each individual of mankind, whence it follows that, though the blood of Christ, from its own intrinsic dignity, was sufficient for the redemption of all men, yet, in consequence of His Father's appointment, He shed it intentionally, and therefore effectually and immediately, for the elect only."
In other words, Christ could have redeemed all believers, but God restricted the redemption to the elect only. Throughout the interpretation of scriptures, you will find that they put in little notes clarifying this. For example, they add the following editorial clarification when discussing a verse in Romans viii: "He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all [i.e., for all us elect persons], ..." In other words, "all" doesn't mean ALL, it means a just few, the elect. I find this particularly ironic, since they also insist that the scriptures be interpreted rigorously literally (hence, creation took seven 24-hour days, not seven figurative periods, etc.) but freely redefine words to support the idea of the elect.
There is nothing a person can do to secure his status as one of the elect. To quote the doctrine: "...all merit, worthiness and good qualifications of theirs were entirely excluded from having any influence on the Divine will why they should be chosen, redeemed and glorified above others...."
Further, there is nothing one can do to loose his status as elect. In fact, the doctrine recognises that the elect are most likely guilty of sin, but receive redemption from Christ, and thus enter heaven. However, a completely sinless man, if non-elect, must burn in hell.
The Quotations are taken from OBSERVATIONS ON THE DIVINE ATTRIBUTES Neccesary To Be Premised In Order To Our Better Understanding
THE DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION by Jerom Zanchius, 1516-1590, which you can read here:
http://www.ondoctrine.com/2zan0001.htm
You can read Zanchius's THE DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION itself, as translated by Toplady in the late 18th century, here:
http://www.ondoctrine.com/2zan0002.htm
The godhatesfags website has it a bit mixed up, with a link claiming to be the Toplady translation of the Doctrine, but which actually provides the text of the Observations. An important thing to note is that none of this is recent thinking, but came from a "reformation" of the church hundreds of years ago.