God's role in extinctions?

helgaleena

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The trouble with this thread IMO is the conflation of two completely separate issues: whether extinctions are or should be preventable, and God's role in anything whatsoever. If one allows for a God, that is. Oh boy, that makes three issues.

Meanwhile, none of you have dropped dead. We could use a bit more practical application of the extinction concept.
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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The trouble with this thread IMO is the conflation of two completely separate issues: whether extinctions are or should be preventable, and God's role in anything whatsoever. If one allows for a God, that is. Oh boy, that makes three issues.

Meanwhile, none of you have dropped dead. We could use a bit more practical application of the extinction concept.

I don't think there's any issue of whether extinctions are or should be preventable.
The issue was whether an all-powerful all-knowing god would create species, most of which disappear.
But they do.
And the point was, All his souffles keep falling.
Some cook!
 

Calboner

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Cal, I just found this.
If you click on the video, you will see your experiment performed ... on the moon.
(Perhaps you had already seen this. For me, it was new.)

Oh, don't you know that that was all faked in a Hollywood studio? The proof is that you can't see any stars in the sky! :rolleyes:

The part of that article pertinent to my argument, though, is this:
Galileo dropped two weights from the Tower of Pisa, one weighing 1 pound and the other 10 pounds, and measured the objects' fall. He discovered that the objects fell at the same acceleration, proving his prediction true, while at the same time proving Aristole's theory of gravity (which states that objects fall at speed relative to their mass) false.
Well, that rather shuts me up. Now I am curious about what the Aristotelians said in reply to that.
 

helgaleena

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And the point was, All his souffles keep falling.
Some cook!

The traditional excuse for falling souffles is to blame it on stupid people slamming the oven door, not the chef. Then you eat it anyway.

Drifter thinks we should switch restaurants. He doesn't want to be on the menu himself. Extinction bothers him.
 

Drifterwood

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Drifter thinks we should switch restaurants. He doesn't want to be on the menu himself. Extinction bothers him.

Not at all. All observation points to the probability that we will go extinct. We are different in that we are the first species (I think) that is able to develop the technology to get off this particular rock and find somewhere else to survive.

In fact, we should probably do this as soon as we can.
 

B_crackoff

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Yes, I understand that people like to make that distinction, but it is all really just an excercise in relative certainty. Science considers all of its knowledge to be provisional, pending a situation where its findings or theories are falsified by new information.

I think you have some well reasoned arguments in your posts.

However, there is something horribly wrong with induction, as "the inductivist turkey" example proves - one event destroys a theory & can mean certain death!:wink: That doesn't mean its not the best tool at our disposal.

What would your take be on the IPCC then? A single anomalous Siberian tree gets rid of the mediavel warming period. The models set up to backwardly predict climate fail to predict current climate; future predictions range from an ice age to a hotter age...it all seems so eminently falsifiable, yet still they insist that AGW is a fact. Not a theory, a fact.

Where observations don't correlate to predicted outcomes, why should a belief structure continue (at great future expense to the rest of us) to have its ideals implemented before it has shown any success? It doesn't help when the IPCC edits original drafts to have more headline grabbing statements, ignores & members who disagree, & even have really pro members like Judith Curry whispered against & labelled a heretic!

This is a good example of where science stops being scientific IMHO.

Oh, & for DW & Calboner - I hope that you write & complain to these guys & many others 1st, & thanks for the lack of acknowledgement of the basis of Europeans in America posit. You're both tirelessly using Socratic Method, & it's boring.:wink:

Scientists say the extraterrestrial life existence possibili
 

Calboner

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Crackoff dismissing all criticisms made by Drifterwood and me as "boring" is a fine exhibition of self-unawareness. But to see him patronize JustAsking as offering "some well reasoned arguments" (none of which he replies to) is truly rich. Yet it is all very familiar:
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled people make poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to appreciate their mistakes.[1] The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their ability as above average, much higher than it actually is, while the highly skilled underrate their own abilities, suffering from illusory inferiority. This leads to the situation in which less competent people rate their own ability higher than more competent people. It also explains why actual competence may weaken self-confidence. Competent individuals falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. As Kruger and Dunning (1999) conclude, "Thus, the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others" (p. 1127). [Wikipedia]
 

HiddenLacey

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I have been wondering what the creationist (of any religion) response is to the fact that c. 99.9% of all the species that have ever existed on this planet have become extinct?

It doesn't seem very successful for an omniscient, omnipotent God, even one that moves in mysterious ways.

Do you think maybe that we have been a little forsaken?

Also - does anyone know how to get off this deathtrap?


I look at it like this, I don't know that there is NOT a God. I don't know that someone somewhere didn't create our planet and everything that surrounds it. Where did everything start? Where was the beginning of all beginnings? Let us not worry about humans or dinosaurs, what about the real beginning? I wasn't alive for that so I can't say how it happened. To be completely honest the idea of there being nothing after I die makes me wonder what was this all for? You live, you die... that's it? :frown1:

Just because something can't be seen or touched doesn't mean it isn't real.

For a way off the deathtrap.... sigh men never stop to ask for directions:tongue:
 

B_crackoff

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Crackoff dismissing all criticisms made by Drifterwood and me as "boring" is a fine exhibition of self-unawareness. But to see him patronize JustAsking as offering "some well reasoned arguments" (none of which he replies to) is truly rich. Yet it is all very familiar:

More Socratic method! Yawn! Unfortunately, the effect (someone else had to describe for you:rolleyes:) definitely applies to you.

This is illustrated by accusing me of patronizing "JustAsking as offering "some well reasoned arguments" (none of which he replies to).:wink:

Read that again numb nuts. Why would I reply to something to which, on the whole(with the reasoning that he used), I agreed with. Wake up! That said, the entry from which you have sourced this effect goes on to explain that this is only about skill in general - not intelligence. Maybe you should resit that Psych class!

For a way off the deathtrap.... sigh men never stop to ask for directions:tongue:

:biggrin1: Now that's the truth!:biggrin1:
 
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Bbucko

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About extinction: how do religious or spiritual people reconcile a loving God with 10,000 japanese instantly erased from the planet by acts of nature? What is the point of prayer and worship with a God who is unable to intervene? Having a God is exactly the same as having no God. It's funny because I consider myself an atheist, yet this catastrophe is so horrible and the pics so vivid that I am going through a bit of a spiritual crisis just thinking of the randomness of instantly erased lives.

The obvious answer is to jettison that concept of a loving, personal, Santa-type God.

The other answer is a Pat Robertson-type "punishment" theory, because somewhere in their hearts those who have died or who are suffering so horribly must have done (or thought) something so horrific as to make such "punishment" justifiable: forgive me if I simply cannot accept that one either.

Another theory/explanation I've read accepts the reality of an impersonal creation God: one who exists outside of ordinary space-time. Such an infinite creature can do anything except experience completely random happenstances. This form of a creator God set up our physical universe specifically to experience randomness in real time, everywhere by anything, as a way to continue its development and growth. The biggest issue here is why something omniscient and eternal would need to grow :rolleyes:

I am curious how an atheist can experience a "spiritual crisis". I'm not being snarky; I just thought that an atheist would have just accepted the random terror which happens while living an ultimately purposeless life. As I've said here before, my ego can't accept that life is ultimately mechanical and meaningless, though I refrain from enumerating possibilities aside from copping to a rather stoic and jaded fatalism (which I cannot describe rationally anyway).

You are confusing findings with theories. If we find no evidence of European activity in America before the 1400s we conclude that so far we don't think there was any. It is only the summation of our findings that lead us to make that provisional claim. But when we discover evidence that there was earlier activity, we push the date back further and publish our new findings far and wide.

Crackoff is on my Ignore list and have chosen to not view any of his contributions to this thread. My original thinking (before reading other responses and quotes further down in this thread) was that he's somehow misspoken and wrote "European" when he meant "human".

There is a body of research suggesting that humans have been on the American continents before the still-commonly accepted advent of Clovis man about 12,000 years ago, but it remains largely the work of speculative thinkers and "alternate theory" historians. I spent years in the 90s absorbed in such work (and finding much of it compelling) only to have the internet ultimately crush the vast majority of it. Clear thinking and an understanding of the value of the scientific method has just proven too overwhelming.

7500 years ago the Sumerians in Mesopotamia (Iraq) said there were visited by species from out of space which they called the Anunnaki or (Those who from the sky came), they also said that the Anunnaki used their DNA to improve the human race where they can be used as slaves for their mining operations on earth (according to the Sumerians they need gold), also they said those space people come from a planet called Nibiru.

Are there other life forms in this universe, well use your imagination.

God is a myth created by humans to be used as an excuse to justify everything we don't understand.

^^^This is yet another example of "alternate theory" mythology; Sitchin's theories are outrageously implausible (though they make ripping good reads).

Do you think that there is any need to have a connection between the physical and the metaphysical?

I do, but, again, I think it has as much to do with my ego as from any verifiable, external phenomena. And I include my two (count 'em: two) NDEs in that. I firmly believe in the existence of metaphysical spirit and its interconnectedness with the physical world but have nothing to offer as proof. And again: one can believe in such a concept with believing in either a creation God or in a personal, Santa-type God.
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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Crackoff dismissing all criticisms made by Drifterwood and me as "boring" is a fine exhibition of self-unawareness. But to see him patronize JustAsking as offering "some well reasoned arguments" (none of which he replies to) is truly rich. Yet it is all very familiar:
You assumed crackoff could appreciate the obvious fit between the Dunning-Kruger effect and his own behavior.
This may be an example of a competent person "falsely assum[ing] that others have an equivalent understanding."
Tsk tsk.
:wink:
More Socratic method!
Do you know what the Socratic method is?
Can you define it, source it, and show how it applies here?

Unfortunately, the effect (someone else had to describe for you:rolleyes:) definitely applies to you.
Cal is sharp and very competent in argument.
.... the entry from which you have sourced this effect goes on to explain that this is only about skill in general - not intelligence. Maybe you should resit that Psych class!
What relevance does this have?
Did Cal say you were stupid rather than unskilled?
If he did, please give a citation.

You call him numb nuts.
Very impressive.
Are you 20, or 21?
 
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AlphaMale

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I have been wondering what the creationist (of any religion) response is to the fact that c. 99.9% of all the species that have ever existed on this planet have become extinct?

It doesn't seem very successful for an omniscient, omnipotent God, even one that moves in mysterious ways.

Do you think maybe that we have been a little forsaken?

Also - does anyone know how to get off this deathtrap?

Are you sure it's 99.9%? There are plenty of species that still exist on the planet today and there are probably some species/subspecies that still haven't been discovered yet.

Also, I think the biggest variable being unaccounted for here is time. Our categorization of time is more than likely not universal (pun intended :wink:).
 

B_crackoff

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You assumed crackoff could appreciate the obvious fit between the Dunning-Kruger effect and his own behavior.
This may be an example of a competent person "falsely assum[ing] that others have an equivalent understanding."
Tsk tsk.:wink:

See you don't understand it either. Muhahahahaha!

Do you know what the Socratic method is?
Can you define it, source it, and show how it applies here?

See, that's Socratic method again! I did tell you you used Socratic irony. Look it up & treat yourself - it can involve ignoring any part of a message or discussion until you find something you'd like to pounce on. There's no contribution, it's just a form of attack. I'm not engaging in that again:tongue: - it's usually only used by wankers!

Cal is sharp and very competent in argument.LOL - one of your pals on here!

What relevance does this have?
Did Cal say you were stupid rather than unskilled?
If he did, please give a citation.

See above. Lol. Read it.
You call him numb nuts.
Very impressive.
Are you 20, or 21?

Wonderful - this from someone saying I was in danger of needing a hockey mask!:biggrin1:

Huck,Buck,Cal,Max,VB,MLB - you always use the same stuff, & I watched you all continually team up against people you didn't agree with on this site - ultimately provoking & forcing people off. It's only ever you guys.

Your tactics & vile bigotry against them just doesn't wash with me. Just have your own little consoling gangbang together.:wink:

PS I love it that BBBBBBUCKO still doesn't ignore me properly. It's not even the first time this week he's posted something about me.

If you can't engage in debate without being jerks to others - just fuck off.
 

ManofThunder

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Wonderful - this from someone saying I was in danger of needing a hockey mask!:biggrin1:

Huck,Buck,Cal,Max,VB,MLB - you always use the same stuff, & I watched you all continually team up against people you didn't agree with on this site - ultimately provoking & forcing people off. It's only ever you guys.

Your tactics & vile bigotry against them just doesn't wash with me. Just have your own little consoling gangbang together.:wink:

PS I love it that BBBBBBUCKO still doesn't ignore me properly. It's not even the first time this week he's posted something about me.

If you can't engage in debate without being jerks to others - just fuck off.

That's a completely ridiculous thing to say. You believe that the aforementioned 'use the same stuff' and yet all you seem to use is the 'same stuff' over and over again, you give a vague, half-angry response as a reply to someones well-worded and thought out points. If you want a debate then debate - don't throw petty insults around and call it 'debate'.
 

joshua_ste

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It's difficult for me to even imagine the "set-up" of the beginning of the creation of the universe. The impossible "set up" is: God always is, was, and ever shall be. God is the Creator who is, himself, uncreated.

This seems to me a cheat in logic. Essentially, God concepts say: "There! That's your set-up! Don't ask where God came from. He's just eternal. That's the given. -- Now, this eternal God one day decides to create & zap the universe into motion. Ok, now... GO." ("As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen" -- Book of Common Prayer) Part of the problem I have with religion is, I don't want to accept this man-created starting point. I don't want to accept literal ideas of what are clearly suppostions or myths. The exact same logic could be extended to say Nothingness zapped everything into being.

These stories we tell ourselves to satsfy what is clearly a spiritual nature (everybody has these spiritual feelings, believers & atheists) always seem to lose their myth-parable qualities (we tell each other creation stories to make sense of existence) and the religions -- the stories -- end up being used to govern, suppress, dictate, legislate. The stories we tell ourselves to express our awe at the vastness of the universe and the very act of "BEING ALIVE" when the odds are so outrageously infinitesimal that we should even be here at all, these spiritual feelings are turned against us and religion becomes a weapon or a tool for totalitarianism. Religion should never be literal, God is an unproven unprovable idea that is the "starting point" that has no real rationale except that it's a concept to express the unexpressable, and humans have made these concepts concrete in order to manipulate control.
 

Calboner

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More Socratic method! Yawn! Unfortunately, the effect (someone else had to describe for you:rolleyes:) definitely applies to you.

This is illustrated by accusing me of patronizing "JustAsking as offering "some well reasoned arguments" (none of which he replies to).:wink:

Read that again numb nuts. Why would I reply to something to which, on the whole(with the reasoning that he used), I agreed with. Wake up!
You cannot agree with JA without taking back the nonsense that you were spouting earlier. Or rather, you cannot do so coherently. But I am sure that you would not let incoherence stop you from professing to agree with a cogent argument that refutes your own previous claims.

As for your fatuously patronizing attitude toward JA, who shows more understanding of science in one sentence than you shown in all your posts on this thread, I remind you of the following comments that you have addressed to him:

I can see that you can't understand the paragraph I wrote!
Well you're no scientist then - read the heading Fact here.
I don't - you're quite ignorantly misunderstanding me. If you were a scientist, & leaped to such conclusions, I'd think your work would be useless.
You have made a complete ass of yourself by posting such things. This is the sort of thing that I had in mind when I attributed your behavior to the Dunning-Kruger effect.
That said, the entry from which you have sourced this effect goes on to explain that this is only about skill in general - not intelligence. Maybe you should resit that Psych class!
Thanks for proving my point. As Hhuck has pointed out, I said nothing about intelligence. You may have great native intellectual capacity. But it is utterly perverted by your egotism and your lack of intellectual integrity.

Oh, & for DW & Calboner - I hope that you write & complain to these guys & many others 1st, & thanks for the lack of acknowledgement of the basis of Europeans in America posit. You're both tirelessly using Socratic Method, & it's boring.:wink:
Your use of that phrase makes it doubtful that you have the slightest idea of what Socratic method is, but if by any remote chance you mean the practice of Socrates in Plato's dialogues, then I can quite understand why you would find such a practice "boring." Socrates would encounter people who seemed very assured of their wisdom. Being in quest of wisdom himself, he would ask them questions to elicit their views and their reasoning. But he invariably found that they were full of confusions and errors. In the worst cases, they were not even honest men, but would resort to dishonest means to try to get the better of Socrates in argument. I certainly have nothing of the ability of Socrates to engage in dialogue with people so self-conceited that they are incapable of recognizing the incoherence of their own arguments, but I am flattered to be likened to him.
 

JustAsking

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...My point, which I take to be in agreement with your position, is that the contrast between "fact" and "theory," while it can be illuminating in some instances of scientific research, can be difficult or impossible to apply without conceptual confusion in other instances. Certainly the idea of a fixed and global distinction between one part of science that is "fact" and another that is "theory" is untenable.


Yes, precisely. I was hypocritical when I said that the 1000 year old notion was wrong. It was simply less right than what Newton proposed. And lest we think Newton was completely right, it turns out that Newton's Laws of motion are less right than the laws of motion that come from Relativity. They only coincide when nothing is moving (which poses a problem for a law of motion.)

But yes, that is why I said that all findings and theories are provisional and are accepted only on the basis that their falsifiable predictions show to be more accurate than those from competing theories. We have no other way to determine the truth of a theory but to simply determine that it is more useful than its competition.

So although our prevailing theory for motion is Relativity, we also expect that it will run into predictive trouble somewhere and have to either be modified or replaced by another theory.

This might seem like a big problem, but consider that even Newton's Laws are "right enough" that we still use them for just about everything we do in terms of calculating motion and force. We still use Newtonian Mechanics for celestial navigation.

The error in Newtonian Mechanics as compared to Relativity starts out as zero when nothing is moving, but as objects move faster they take on relativistic mass exponentially which goes assymptotic at the speed of light.

The effect is so small as to be unnoticeable for most things in motion, even speeding planets. But we could not focus the very fast moving electrons in a picture tube properly using only Newtonian Physics. A relativistic correction is needed to get that right.

So one has to consider the "relativity of right". Although Newtonian Mechanics is not completely right, it has served us in almost all cases of motion of everything we have ever been concerned with for 400 years with astonishing precision. In fact we didn't even notice the discrepancy until another theory (Maxwell's Equations for electromagnetism) showed a logical inconsistency with Newton.

It was a pretty big deal, because in 1860, this new EM theory was already describing everything we knew about EM fields including every observation we ever made about light. It placed Newton's theory in a kind of predictive crisis for a few decades until Einstein came a long and proposed Relativity.

Relativity would have been dismissed as someone's opium nightmare, except for the fact that its predictive powers covered all of the predictions of Newtonian Mechanics, corrected the error as things started moving faster, and completely solved the Maxwell/Newton crisis.

This is how science works. Einstein was an unknown clerk in the Swiss Patent office but when he published his work, it was clear that it made definitive falsifiable predictions that made it completely testable under more conditions than Newton. And it made predictions about nature that no one ever even imagined. Since all those predictions proved to be more accurate than anything else, career physicists gave the 400 year Newtonian world over to Einstein.

It only took a few decades as the predictions were proven out, and it happened during the careers of well established scientists. If anyone wants to call that dogma, then they need their head examined. Empirical truth always wins in science but it only wins based on its superior predictive power and maintains its title only as long as it can remain superior in prediction.

One can complain that scientific theories are never completely right, but you cannot say that they are "righter" than almost any other way of knowing something.
 

Calboner

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So although our prevailing theory for motion is Relativity, we also expect that it will run into predictive trouble somewhere and have to either be modified or replaced by another theory.

This might seem like a big problem, but consider that even Newton's Laws are "right enough" that we still use them for just about everything we do in terms of calculating motion and force. We still use Newtonian Mechanics for celestial navigation.
That reminds me of something that I saw today, though it dates from 2008. Have your heard about this?
Researchers Investigate New Cosmic Mystery: The Flyby Anomaly
By Amir Alexander

28 February, 2008

A new study by researchers from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory shows that spacecrafts that swing by the Earth are subject to a small but unexplained increase in their velocity. Is an unknown physical force at work, or something far more mundane? As in the case of the Pioneer anomaly, all investigators know so far is that a great deal more research is needed. But they have already given this new mysterious phenomenon a name: "the flyby anomaly." . . .

The PRL article is the result of 18 years of work and data analysis by JPL engineers, who have pondered the anomaly from the beginning. Skeptical by nature and training, the space engineers initially doubted whether this apparent inconsistency in the Galileo data was real. It is far more likely, they reasoned, that the anomaly was an artifact of their own tracking instruments rather than a shift in the spacecraft's actual velocity. Over the next several years, John D. Anderson, along with James K. Campbell and James F. Jordan looked hard at the tracking procedures and equipment, searching for a possible cause that could explain away the speed discrepancy. They found nothing: the Galileo flyby anomaly remained stubbornly apparent in the tracking data.
I don't know if there have been any further developments since the publication of the article to which this one refers. I certainly looked askance at the first paragraph, but the article reports that the effect has been observed in other spacecraft passing by earth and that it has not been possible to explain it away by reference to faulty observation or relativistic effects. Irksome!