Golfer Tiger Woods lingering and meandering towards death

[Sergeant_Torpedo]

As the unfortunate Mr Woods says: family matters should remain within the family (the old plantation aristocracy creed) which makes you think what kind of family is it. I wish him a speedy recovery, I will offer to sing at his benefit for free, apart from the first class air fares, 5 star hotel stay, limouisine service, you know the usual stuff us celebs have come to expect (demand).

 

[SilverTrain]

Tiger fucked up. A LOT. And now he's been caught.

Of course there's no right to pry into his life. (Although if criminal charges are filed, that'll be public info. Seems unlikely at this point, though.) But he is by all accounts one of the most public figures in the world. Any expectation of complete privacy on his part would be absurd. Can he plead for it? Yes. Will his wishes be respected? No way.

Bottom line, if you willingly become a public figure*, there's little (if any at all) room for cover when your mistakes become public knowledge.

*Especially if your public figure-ness involves your receipt of hundreds of millions of dollars in exchange for your likeness, your words, your endorsements being published continuously in all manner of media. It's the very modern definition of quid pro quo.

 

[D_Stanford Dedwillie III]

Wow, Jesper Pernavik slammed Tiger. Wow.

"I would be especially sad about it since I'm kind of -- I really feel sorry for Elin -- since me and my wife were at fault for hooking her up with him," Parnevik said. "We probably thought he was a better guy than he is. I would probably need to apologize to her and hope she uses a driver next time instead of the 3-iron."

I concur with some of the above posts that the media is ridiculous.

But c'mon, dude was married and has two young kids. While the mother of his children is feeding, dressing and caring for his kids, he's out sticking his dick in chicks all across the country and carrying on affairs for years.

And we had to listen to all that holier than thou shit about his dad and the values instilled in Tiger....

He's a selfish asshole with no morals or will power and just happens to be a good golfer. Fuck him.

He deserves this onslaught. I hope he ends up on an episode of Springer.

 

[Flashy]

squig, ones ability to hit a golf ball, be a good athlete, be a good person, donate tens of millions to charity, really does not have anything to do with his private sex life.

I think it unfair to call him selfish, or an asshole, or not having any morals.

because he slipped up, with regards to sexuality, is not some uncommon failing, and let's ace it, when you are a billionaire, and arguably the most recognizable sportsman on the planet, the offers of sexual gratification from likely thousands upon thousands of women, must be nearly impossible to resist.

as for his wife "feeding, dressing and caring for his kids", well, come on, man...she is not some simple homemaker. they have cooks, nannies, drivers, housekeepers, yachts and a private jet and multiple homes...and she has no actual job...so it is not like she is truly a downtrodden housewife...i am not saying that makes right for him to cheat...but to suggest that this woman, who was an au-pair when he met her, is somehow worse off for having known him, is not really fair.

they have two beautiful kids, who i am sure she loves, and, if this causes them to divorce, she will still have those kids, not to mention she will be richer then most can imagine, and, if she chooses, can find somebody else. with her looks, that will not be a problem.

adultery may not be pleasant, but the likelihood of it occurring is rather consistently easy.

i am not saying it is right, but criticizing people's failings at fidelity, is something that if you choose to do, you will be doing a lot...since it happens much more often than we care to admit.

i have never cheated...but i have been cheated on...and it was the most hurtful thing i could think of. But would i have cheated on that person had i known how many options i had to do so at the time? I don't know...when i think back on it, i remember i had a million chances, but did not realize it...i did not realize i was a good catch at the time, and she did not appreciate that enough...but after it was over, she really saw that...and that was her punishment. do i wish i cheated for revenge? No...that would have put me on her level...but i did get even...in that she saw me after the fact...in that i had been faithful, and then when she came to visit me, and was crawling back to me, i made a point of taking her around to all the new places i was going, where i had relationships with tons of new, great women, who were all into me in one or another, and that hurt her more than anything...she knew she had blown it, and i was a good catch, and loyal, and everyone she met since me, only wanted one thing, or someone she'd be with for two weeks, would then cheat on her...

and all those new girls, who were friends, or crushes, or wanted to be with me, all knew about her...and she had to suffer watching me move on.

it is nobody's right to judge people's private lives...what they have done ultimately is something they must deal with

IMO

 

[B_bigbanana]

Tiger Woods screwed up for screwing around. He is a jerk for sure there is no getting around that fact. He got caught in his selfish-stupidity. Now he has to pay the consequences; whether he accepts them or not. I personally don't look up to him anymore. Is he a good person? Yes. Is he human? Yes, but that is just an excuse. We all are human and some of us have cheated and some of us have not, but we are human. It has nothing to do with Tiger's humanity. Simple fact is he made very poor and selfish decisions. When you look out for self well all you end up with is yourself..and that can get lonely. It's up to Elin if she stays with him or not. She has every right to leave him.
This will definitely affect his personal life and career, both negatively.

 

[DGirl]

You all, well, most of you are all like Tiger is this and tiger is that..
WHO cares. He is a DAMN fool, but his wife is at fought also! She is making him pay to be with her. So in a since he CAN fuck other women..

Details of Elin Woods' newly rewritten prenup emerge - Devil Ball Golf - Golf Blog - Yahoo! Sports

He is PAYING this damn women to be his wife..
WTF????????????

So, I say if he is paying all that damn money for her damn PUSSY. He can go do others for FREE..." Hell, she is getting paid...
She came to the marriage with NOTHING...
I looked up her past when they first got married..
She was a NANNY for one of his golf buddies. She was TRYING to be a model, but never got picked up to me a REAL contract one like the HIGH end ones. She may have gotten a few jobs.. who knows. But, she put it on Tiger and he fell for her and bought her, I mean married her...

 

[nudeyorker]

I have not read any of the comments on this thread because I really don't give a shit. However I love their Christmas card!

 

[Mr. Snakey]

I have not read any of the comments on this thread because I really don't give a shit. However I love their Christmas card!

Oh thats funny!:biggrin1:

 

[Sergeant_Torpedo]

I should like to retract my tounge in cheek swipe at the media and celebrity publicists. The Woods family are right, private matters are private. It is a pity that we feel we have a right to know about these people. If politicians can exclude us then so we all should have that right. In my local paper it was felt that it was okay to report that a poor woman who had gotten into a spiral of debt and too much work had a "filthy home" - so MPs stealing from us is alright, a woman so low she doesn't hoover is a criminal. Since when was it cool to be a Pharisee? Good look to Mr Woods and his family.

 

[D_Stanford Dedwillie III]

you make some good points, Flashy. I concur that in this day and age, cheating is, sadly, almost the norm.

As you stipulated, being cheated on is among the worst tortures in life. Add to that - that this woman was formerly a model...and no doubt after giving birth to two children in a relatively short period of time, her body is not what it once was...adding insecurity and esteem issues.

I agree that one's private life is just that....private. I didn't care about Clinton getting a blowjob; it had nothing to do with his performance as CIC.

However, when you accept $80 million per year in endorsements, you are putting yourself into millions of people's living rooms on a constant basis. His performance on the PGA puts him into people's living rooms on a constant basis - to which he is also handsomely paid.

In his defense, he has never really promoted himself as a barometer on morals and he has never really made disparaging remarks about anybody else - that I know of.

However, he made his wedding vows. He has more focus on his career and the golf course than probably any athlete since Jordan. He has the mental capacity to stay focused and disciplined.

He chose not to on a repeated basis over a multi-year period. He is happy to put himself into our living rooms and glean adulation and adoration and cash in on that. Now he is in our living rooms because he screwed up, and suddenly he doesn't want us to comment on that? Its none of our business?

Him saying this is a 'private matter' is simply him not wanting to deal with being in our living rooms when we are not giving him the perpetual hand job we've been giving him for 12 years due to his talent as a golfer.

If he's man enough to deposit those $80 million checks every year because we buy his products and worship his abilities, he should be man enough to deal with the fallout from his poor decision-making and infidelity.

To your point about his wife having nannies, etc - I agree that she's not starving or pulling weeds in the garden. But when it comes to being cheated on, you can throw the private jets and yachts out the window. It is living hell - rich or poor.

I feel like if Tiger is going to jump onto my TV screen and tell me to buy Nike, Gatorade, etc and cash huge checks because of his celebrity, I should have the right to be vocal about his performance on the golf course and his performance in life ...and I don't even get paid to do it...and I'm not popping up on his TV screen 20 times per day.

Long story short....he's gotta take the bad with the good.

Just my opinion, of course. But I don't feel sorry for this guy. At all.

squig, ones ability to hit a golf ball, be a good athlete, be a good person, donate tens of millions to charity, really does not have anything to do with his private sex life.

I think it unfair to call him selfish, or an asshole, or not having any morals.

because he slipped up, with regards to sexuality, is not some uncommon failing, and let's ace it, when you are a billionaire, and arguably the most recognizable sportsman on the planet, the offers of sexual gratification from likely thousands upon thousands of women, must be nearly impossible to resist.

as for his wife "feeding, dressing and caring for his kids", well, come on, man...she is not some simple homemaker. they have cooks, nannies, drivers, housekeepers, yachts and a private jet and multiple homes...and she has no actual job...so it is not like she is truly a downtrodden housewife...i am not saying that makes right for him to cheat...but to suggest that this woman, who was an au-pair when he met her, is somehow worse off for having known him, is not really fair.

they have two beautiful kids, who i am sure she loves, and, if this causes them to divorce, she will still have those kids, not to mention she will be richer then most can imagine, and, if she chooses, can find somebody else. with her looks, that will not be a problem.

adultery may not be pleasant, but the likelihood of it occurring is rather consistently easy.

i am not saying it is right, but criticizing people's failings at fidelity, is something that if you choose to do, you will be doing a lot...since it happens much more often than we care to admit.

i have never cheated...but i have been cheated on...and it was the most hurtful thing i could think of. But would i have cheated on that person had i known how many options i had to do so at the time? I don't know...when i think back on it, i remember i had a million chances, but did not realize it...i did not realize i was a good catch at the time, and she did not appreciate that enough...but after it was over, she really saw that...and that was her punishment. do i wish i cheated for revenge? No...that would have put me on her level...but i did get even...in that she saw me after the fact...in that i had been faithful, and then when she came to visit me, and was crawling back to me, i made a point of taking her around to all the new places i was going, where i had relationships with tons of new, great women, who were all into me in one or another, and that hurt her more than anything...she knew she had blown it, and i was a good catch, and loyal, and everyone she met since me, only wanted one thing, or someone she'd be with for two weeks, would then cheat on her...

and all those new girls, who were friends, or crushes, or wanted to be with me, all knew about her...and she had to suffer watching me move on.

it is nobody's right to judge people's private lives...what they have done ultimately is something they must deal with

IMO

 

[thadjock]

I agree that one's private life is just that....private. I didn't care about Clinton getting a blowjob; it had nothing to do with his performance as CIC.

ya it didn't matter to me either but i disagree that it didn't affect his performance as potus.

that event significantly hampered his presidency, and he spent years paying for it having to defend himself against congress and impeachment, and a loss of influential power needed to push through policy issues.

 

[Flashy]

However, when you accept $80 million per year in endorsements, you are putting yourself into millions of people's living rooms on a constant basis. His performance on the PGA puts him into people's living rooms on a constant basis - to which he is also handsomely paid.

very true...but he is not in people's living rooms for his sex life...he is in for how he plays golf...nothing else.

when you watched Mickey Mantle do a TV endorsement, you watched him because he was one of the greatest of all time...not because he was a raging alcoholic, who had a wife and kids who he rarely ever got to see because they were back in Oklahoma while he lived in New YOrk 7 months of the year and spent two months in Florida for Spring Training...he was out every night partying and with countless women...fans do not love him any less.

just because you receive a check for an endorsement or appear in commercials, does not mean you owe anyone anything, other than your best performance on the golf course.

In his defense, he has never really promoted himself as a barometer on morals and he has never really made disparaging remarks about anybody else - that I know of.

true, and that is why none of this is really relevant....his private life is just that...private.

However, he made his wedding vows. He has more focus on his career and the golf course than probably any athlete since Jordan. He has the mental capacity to stay focused and disciplined.

making wedding vows is not legally binding...nor is it a promise of perfection...it is an attempt, that billions have failed at through the course of history with regards to marital fidelity

having the mental capacity to stay focused and disciplined when practicing or playing golf, is much different than containing one's libido.

hitting a small white ball is not a constant primal urge...the urge to screw, is :smile:

He chose not to on a repeated basis over a multi-year period. He is happy to put himself into our living rooms and glean adulation and adoration and cash in on that.

he is only cashing in on our admiration of his ability to hit a golf ball, not be married. Michael Jordan was a womanizer too...still did not change the "Be Like Mike" song...nobody was saying you should "Be like Mike" and bang every woman you see...it is about playing hoops like Mike, and dreaming of being great...not dreaming of marital vows.

Now he is in our living rooms because he screwed up, and suddenly he doesn't want us to comment on that? Its none of our business?

i do not see him saying "don't comment" on that...but it is in fact, none of our business. I see him saying "this is a private matter"...which it is. I see him bemoaning the fact that it is true, that if you have not done anything illegal, and infidelity is not legal, there is a pretty disgusting presumption of the public and the press these days, that people somehow are owed explanations about people's private lives...we are not.

the only time and explanation is due about that, is if there are legal ramifications.

i think people want to watch him squirm in public and have to give a press conference to say how awful he is, and what a dissapointment he is...but he does not owe me, you or the public that. I think that is why the few people upset about this are so cranky about it....there is a voyeuristic joy in watching someone successful fail at something totally not related to what he/she is successful at, and we demand, as a very foolish and obnoxious public, that they unburden themselves to us, tell us everything, sob in a press conference, admit they are failures like everyone else, let us salivate over them on Oprah, or whoever...let us have all the sleazy details in a tell all interview with Barbara Walters where you cry...

it is rather repulsive.

we can "comment" as much as we want at water coolers...but the fact is, it has no real relevance. at that same water cooler, if 10 people are there, half of them may have committed relationship or marital infidelity at some time in their lives.

Him saying this is a 'private matter' is simply him not wanting to deal with being in our living rooms when we are not giving him the perpetual hand job we've been giving him for 12 years due to his talent as a golfer.

no, it is him saying this is a private matter...which it is. it was a minor traffic accident. that is all this was.

he was not screwing a mistress in the car, he was not drunk, on drugs etc...so, as long as he pays for the damage he caused, i fail to see how his infidelity should somehow be linked in to a traffic accident, and he should somehow change the fact that it is a private matter, by saying "well i agree, this is a public matter, and you should all attempt to humiliate me and my family on top of what i have already caused"

he is basically saying "i am sorry that you are disappointed, but i owe the public no apology...the people i owe my apology to is my family"

If he's man enough to deposit those $80 million checks every year because we buy his products and worship his abilities, he should be man enough to deal with the fallout from his poor decision-making and infidelity.

well, we do not buy his products...companies attach their name to his, and pay him a fee to do so, nothing more. they do so to attach their names to his abilities as a golfer.

you do not have to be such a big man to deposit a check when people want to pay you so they can say "if you buy our gatorade, you will be drinking the same stuff that Tiger drinks when he is a crushing a 300 yard drive"

i am not aware of any products he actually produces.

and he is already dealing with the fallout for his infidelity and decision making...but that does not mean that anyone really has the right to demand knowing more about his personal life.

that is all he has said...it is none of your (the public) business...which it isn't. we can wag our tongues all we want and point a scolding finger, but tough shit, it is his life not ours, and he owes us no further explanation.
i say he is right.

if someone wanted more from me, about the private life of me and my family, i would say "tough shit"...watch a soap opera.

To your point about his wife having nannies, etc - I agree that she's not starving or pulling weeds in the garden. But when it comes to being cheated on, you can throw the private jets and yachts out the window. It is living hell - rich or poor.

indeed it is living hell...but i was simply pointing out the old Eddie Murphy joke about Johnny Carson's wife.

but with regards to Elin, yes, i feel badly for her, but let's face it...she was an F-list swimsuit model from Sweden whose big achievement in life was being a nanny for another golfer. she wanted attention, or else would not have become a model...right or wrong, she has gotten quite bit out of the relationship....and nobody has a right to expect their life will go perfectly and then be so shocked if it does not.

I feel like if Tiger is going to jump onto my TV screen and tell me to buy Nike, Gatorade, etc and cash huge checks because of his celebrity, I should have the right to be vocal about his performance on the golf course and his performance in life ...and I don't even get paid to do it...and I'm not popping up on his TV screen 20 times per day.

sure you have the right to be vocal about his performance...but you don't have the right to judge his performance in life. you have the right to talk about it, but not to judge it.
the point is, he is not saying you don't have the right to judge him. he is simply saying that his private life is none of your business, and that it is total bullshit that because you screw up in your personal life, the media can cause such an avalanche of noise and false entitlement as to what they feel they and the public deserve, that they can browbeat a person into actually having to discuss their private life when it is nobody's business. he is basically saying "yes, i fucked up and my family is bearing the brunt of this...and it is none of your business" (i applaud him for taking that line)

As i write this, ESPN is nattering on and on and on about *NOTHING*...yet it is on this topic...they are blowing this totally out of proportion as are the rest of the magazines and news outlets.

this is not *NEWS* it is tabloid and yellow journalism. it is titillating garbage for voyeurs.

Long story short....he's gotta take the bad with the good.

he is...but it is still none of our business.

IMO

 

[thirteenbyseven]

Fellow lpsg.org'ers, here are some provocative Tiger Woods questions.

Today on the Huffington Post, some creature who calls herself Mindy Lawton said Tiger was very well-endowed and (on a scale from 1 to 10) a 12 in bed. Hmm. This is in contrast to a couple of other anonymous claims that Tiger was a "Thai toothpick" compared to the bats of A-Rod and Derek Jeter. Could it be she is trying to inflate his manhood to sell her story?

Whatever the case Tiger Woods' mystique is taking quite a hit lately. Over at an Orlando nightclub called the Blue Martini Tiger has been in there so often the reaction of the cocktail servers has sunk to a new low. "Hey girls that low-life dweeb Tiger Woods is back. Madge, do you want to serve him over on table three or do we draw short straws?"

In other Tiger news apparently his mother Kutilda is with him all day, every day, to the extent that his wife Elin wanted to have a body of water (like a moat with a drawbridge) separating their new mansion over in Jupiter Florida from the guest house where Kutilda would live. So Tiger has these nagging women around him 24/7 without the peace-and-quiet to even jerk-off?

Lastly, how many prenups have you seen that are written like NFL contracts with insentive clauses? If Elin plays the happy wife for two more years- or rushes for over a thousand yards a year- she gets an additional 20 million. Where did Tiger come up with these lawyers?

 

[thadjock]

"Hey girls that low-life dweeb Tiger Woods is back. Madge, do you want to serve him over on table three or do we draw short straws?"

u know to be honest tiger has always struck me as "urkel" with money.

if he didn't have money he woulnd't have babes.

I mean come on it's GOLF....it's a geek sport. up until recently the only people playing golf were 55 yo middle level management types, and guys who couldnt' get dates in hs. oh yeah, and lesbians.

and his sponsors won't care if she stays or goes because str8 women ( the ones who are usually outraged by infidelity) don't watch golf or buy the products he pitches.

 

[Northland]

u know to be honest tiger has always struck me as "urkel" with money.

if he didn't have money he woulnd't have babes.

I mean come on it's GOLF....it's a geek sport. up until recently the only people playing golf were 55 yo middle level management types, and guys who couldnt' get dates in hs. oh yeah, and lesbians.
and his sponsors won't care if she stays or goes because str8 women ( the ones who are usually outraged by infidelity) don't watch golf or buy the products he pitches.

Actually golf has been around for quite some time and has been a professional sporting game as well.

Let's take a look at some men who made it in golf, and long before they were 55. In fact before they were even 45.

Ernie Els- born 1969 won the US Open in 1994 and 1997, British Open in 2002

Lucas Glover, 2009 US Open winner-born in 1979

Angel Cabrera-US Open in2007, Masters Tournament in 2009-born 1969

Vijay Singh-Masters in 2000, PGA Championship in 1998 and 2004- born 1963

Fuzzy Zoeller-Masters in 1979, US Open in 1984 born in 1951

Arnold Palmer won the Masters in 1958, 1960, 1962, 1964 and the British Open in 1961 and 1962- all before he even turned 40. He was born in 1929.


Jack Nicklaus won the US Open in1962, 1967, 1972, 1980 and The Mastes in 1963, 1965, 1966, 1972, 1975, 1986 an the PGA in 1963, 1971, 1973, 1975, 1980- all before he was 41! He was born in 1940.

So, it seems, golfers, professional and otherwise have been succeeding for a while. Arnold Palmer even went the fashion route, before Woods. And Palmer had class! His socks and shirts had a little umbrella logo on them and weren't part of the slave labor associated with Nike which Woods endorses.

Businessmen over the years-many married-have played golf. Other than the dreadful comments of Fuzzy Zoeller several years back, golf has never been sullied.


Until now.

 

[ZOS23xy]

Golf isn't exciting. Neither are any of these people

 

[Northland]

Golf isn't exciting. Neither are any of these people

Take that back!


Arnold Palmer is very very interesting....



...then again, I have been asking for nude pics of Wallace Shawn and Bill Richardson. I suppose it's all what we each find interesting.

 

[thadjock]

1963


Businessmen over the years-many married-have played golf. Other than the dreadful comments of Fuzzy Zoeller several years back, golf has never been sullied.


Until now.

actually i saw a report on some tabloid newsertainment show, maybe it was cnn, that claimed that groupies and infidelity are fairly common among elite golfers,

but it's just never gotten the media coverage because they seldom crash spectacularly into a tree/firehydrant with their wives whackin on their car with a golf club.

so listen to tiger kids, if ur gonna keep ur cheatin on the DL , u need to marry a more demure x-nanny.

 

[D_Stanford Dedwillie III]

very true...but he is not in people's living rooms for his sex life...he is in for how he plays golf...nothing else.

yes but he's pitching products

when you watched Mickey Mantle do a TV endorsement, you watched him because he was one of the greatest of all time...not because he was a raging alcoholic, who had a wife and kids who he rarely ever got to see because they were back in Oklahoma while he lived in New YOrk 7 months of the year and spent two months in Florida for Spring Training...he was out every night partying and with countless women...fans do not love him any less.

Mantle was likable and fan-friendly. Tiger is not in my opinion.

just because you receive a check for an endorsement or appear in commercials, does not mean you owe anyone anything, other than your best performance on the golf course.

I agree and I don't think he owes the public anything. If he has morals, he could make a statement that would be the right thing to do. Tens of millions of kids have been seeing this on the news, and Tiger just buries his head in the sand.


How do you think those kids feel? He's taking the Charles Barkley 'I'm not a role model' route.

Which - that's fine. He's cashing in on his celebrity status, but he won't take responsibility and man up to the millions of people and fans that idolize him.

making wedding vows is not legally binding...nor is it a promise of perfection...it is an attempt, that billions have failed at through the course of history with regards to marital fidelity

A vow is a vow. Billions have failed, and billions have also succeeded.

having the mental capacity to stay focused and disciplined when practicing or playing golf, is much different than containing one's libido.

hitting a small white ball is not a constant primal urge...the urge to screw, is :smile:

Fair enough, but again, billions have been able to direct their libido at their wife. That's one of the things she's there for.:wink:

i think people want to watch him squirm in public and have to give a press conference to say how awful he is, and what a dissapointment he is...but he does not owe me, you or the public that. I think that is why the few people upset about this are so cranky about it....there is a voyeuristic joy in watching someone successful fail at something totally not related to what he/she is successful at, and we demand, as a very foolish and obnoxious public, that they unburden themselves to us, tell us everything, sob in a press conference, admit they are failures like everyone else, let us salivate over them on Oprah, or whoever...let us have all the sleazy details in a tell all interview with Barbara Walters where you cry...

You may be right about this. My opinion is that he should have released a more heartfelt message and apologizing to fans and people that look up to him. Nothing self-deprecating but something that would send a better message to kids.

When you were a kid and you idolized somebody it crushes you when that person lets you down by doing something like this. Just a simple comment that addresses that can make a huge difference. But Tiger is too much of a prick to think about that.

and he is already dealing with the fallout for his and decision making...but that does not mean that anyone really has the right to demand knowing more about his personal life.

I, for one, don't want to know anything else about his personal life. I want him to say 'I'm sorry for fucking up. I will become a better man because of this and I appreciate my fans."

As i write this, ESPN is nattering on and on and on about *NOTHING*...yet it is on this topic...they are blowing this totally out of proportion as are the rest of the magazines and news outlets.

ESPN has been giving him a nightly handjob for the last 12 years. Just sayin.

this is not *NEWS* it is tabloid and yellow journalism. it is titillating garbage for voyeurs.

Agreed:wink:





he is...but it is still none of our business.

IMO[/QUOTE]

 

[ZOS23xy]

I found there's something all the women that have surfaced, claiming Tiger Woods as a lover...... .......they all have a hole in one.... On the other hand, to each their own, as said. I'd rather talk to Wallace Shawn than see him nekkid. ....