Government created AIDS/HIV?

[D_Thoraxis_Biggulp]

Please, you're bitter because I'm right. You want to believe that he's talking about the US even though it was stated from the start that he wasn't. Paralleling trusting your suspicions to his trusting his own in each of these cases is absurd. But go ahead, hide behind your own sense of logic.

By the way, the reason conspiracy theorists say the burden of proof is upon them is because they feel like they should be able to turn the suspicion into an accusation with proof. The reason they then put it on someone else is because they realize the information to make a direct and solid accusation isn't within their reach.

 

[B_becominghorse]

As well, Stapled Shut, the OP does say, while sharing Rev. wright's ideas to a degree, 'I don't necessarily mean I think the U.S,. government' did it...' so Rev. Wright is the stepping-off for just saying it was 'man-made'. Probably Rev. Wright at least had the courage to just go on and say the fuck stupid shit he thought, whereas the OP wants to make it...I don't know...subtle? forget it, it's not.

 

[HaagenDazs]

Uh-oh...not one of these threads.

I don't know what's true. It could be a government experiment...hell, this is the same government that created the nuclear weapon and bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If we've been willing to vaporize entire populations, why not be willing to kill populations with a disease that intelligently focuses on the immune system, and is spread not by violent means, but by the most pleasurable of human activities...sex.

Or it could be a disease that evolved from Mother Nature herself. She's done worse. This may just be one of her most potent things yet.

I don't know it's origins. I don't want to argue it's origins. What I do know is: it's fucking us up as a species.

That's what we need to be focused on more. The reality of it's existence and how to fight it.

 

[B_becominghorse]

I One of the things Rev. Wright said was that the government created HIV/AIDS as a plot against Black people and he used the infamous Tuskegee experiments as his reference for this belief.

I consider myself a well-read and educated person who is open-minded and not one who is big with conspiracies, but I have to admit, I have my own beliefs that aren't too far from Rev. Wright's on this. The problem is, I have no proof and to my knowledge, no one does. I often think of these beliefs the same way people believe in aliens who have come to earth, they really think it's happened but they can't believe it.

For the record, my personal theory is that HIV was created as a form of germ warfare and it was introduced in Africa where a loss of life would go relatively unnoticed and would be relatively ignored. I don't necessarily believe it was the US government that created the virus, but I do believe it was man-made.

Why bitter 'because you're right'? Here's the relevant part of the OP, where he says he 'doesn't necessarily believe it was the the U.S. government'. That means, for people who can read it, that he might well believe it but won't quite say so. Is that finally through your thick skull?

 

[D_Thoraxis_Biggulp]

As well, Stapled Shut, the OP does say, while sharing Rev. wright's ideas to a degree, 'I don't necessarily mean I think the U.S,. government' did it...' so Rev. Wright is the stepping-off for just saying it was 'man-made'. Probably Rev. Wright at least had the courage to just go on and say the fuck stupid shit he thought, whereas the OP wants to make it...I don't know...subtle? forget it, it's not.

I fail to see how having the "courage" to say stupid shit is better than having the decency to not point the finger with nothing more than a very general suspicion. But sure, go ahead and think what you want. Personally, I think it's better to keep the accusations generic until the potential suspects are whittled down further. You know, innocent until proven guilty and all that crap.

 

[D_Thoraxis_Biggulp]

Why bitter 'because you're right'? Here's the relevant part of the OP, where he says he 'doesn't necessarily believe it was the the U.S. government'. That means, for people who can read it, that he might well believe it but won't quite say so. Is that finally through your thick skull?

That statement implies that he's leaning more towards it not being the US government but is still open to the possibility that it was us. Congratulations, you essentially proved both of us right.

 

[B_becominghorse]

That statement implies that he's leaning more towards it not being the US government but is still open to the possibility that it was us. Congratulations, you essentially proved both of us right.

Yes, therefore 'suspicions' about 'other governments' after saying this show a mush-minded thinking, and why I'll leave it to you, with one final word: While conspiracy theorists do say that the burden of proof is on them at first, it's no time before they say 'oh no, I'm not Miss Marple, it's up to you, White House, etc., to prove it'. But it's amazing enough we even got this straight. I'll just keep you StapledShut for a week, because I don't have time for any more of this, given that the OP is a devious post to begin with, won't call a spade a spade, and therefore creates a long thread in which he neither suspects the U.S. nor doesn't suspect it, but 'appreciates civll discourse' and "respects that point of view'. It's all a crock of shit and does not merit civility. Mush-mindedness is worthless.

 

[B_becominghorse]

I fail to see how having the "courage" to say stupid shit is better than having the decency to not point the finger with nothing more than a very general suspicion. But sure, go ahead and think what you want. Personally, I think it's better to keep the accusations generic until the potential suspects are whittled down further. You know, innocent until proven guilty and all that crap.

Because with 'stupid shit' you at least have vague idea of how to respond. the OP chooses instead 'half-stupid shit'. and therefore abuses all of his guests, inviting them into his thread-home to offer him comfort and solace in his time of slight discomfort. Like I said, crock of shit.

 

[bigdicksarebest]

I remember Reagan saying something about having a virus that kills people but saves the building so American soldiers could still use them. This was in the early stages of AIDS.

 

[D_Thoraxis_Biggulp]

Sure, that makes sense if developing and collaborating on an idea isn't a way to respond. The trouble though is that starting a discussion is just as valid as starting a debate. But if you want something that you can either simply agree with or discredit, then obviously you're in the wrong place. However, there are those of us who think it's worth discussing merely the possibility that it was spread with militant intentions, rather than immediately pointing the finger with only that gut feeling.

 

[faceking]

It could be a government experiment...hell, this is the same government that created the nuclear weapon and bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

And we should drop to our knees that they did that.

Yeah, the same government that, a la the Manhattan Project... that was about $28B in today's dollars, was spread over a dozen sites (although manly Hanford, Los Alamos, Oak Ridge). Involved thousands of ppl, yet both the Germans and Japanese (whom were building their own atomic bombs, for the record) knew we were underway with it. We've found out about a slew of much much much smaller experimentations. Me thinks someone found the boxset to the X-Files at Blockbuster. Course that Philadelphia Experiment still hangs out there, maybe the same UFO book writers can dig into this HIV thing.....

Yet in today's environment/politics/media noone has slipped out... no underling ...no anonymous source... artifact, etc... that there was some devised project to spread the HIV amongst a populous. An Obama staffer sends a Yahoo! text msg to a friend that she thinks Hillary is evil, and the New York Times is sprinting back to the office to get the story out. Amazing... I can refresh my browser after I hit the [SUBMIT REPLY] button, and find out Lindsay Lohan got a mole removed from her labia 5 minutes ago.

Yet this is still conspiracy... espoused by Mr Wright, whom Barry has been hanging out with for 20 years, and just recently disagrees with (only when it jeopardizes his career). Unc... nevermind. It's one way or the other Barry.





Speaking of the Manhattan Project.. guessing noone caught the back-back-back page story in the liberal media, that the Bikini Atoll has been growning back, and is expected to fully return... who'da thunk?

 

[Pendlum]

Uh-oh...not one of these threads.

I don't know what's true. It could be a government experiment...hell, this is the same government that created the nuclear weapon and bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If we've been willing to vaporize entire populations, why not be willing to kill populations with a disease that intelligently focuses on the immune system, and is spread not by violent means, but by the most pleasurable of human activities...sex.

Or it could be a disease that evolved from Mother Nature herself. She's done worse. This may just be one of her most potent things yet.

I don't know it's origins. I don't want to argue it's origins. What I do know is: it's fucking us up as a species.

That's what we need to be focused on more. The reality of it's existence and how to fight it.

The problem isn't that our government can't do things. A bunch of these parallels don't fit because they are known. The Manhattan Project wasn't a conspiracy. It may have 'operated in secret', but again it was response to the fear of the Nazis, or someone else, getting nuclear weapons. Not to mention it was only secret because they didn't want the enemy stealing their research and plans. Not to mention they tested one of those bad boys on our soil, so I'm sure they weren't too concerned about people wondering what was going on, so long as the enemies didn't catch wind of the technology.

Then of course The Manhattan Project wasn't just us, others were involved as well.

 

[HyperHulk]

Of course, I trust my own suspicion just as he trusts his, or imagines he does. Meantime, I took several people off Ignore today, and your incredible tortured 'logic' is boring fuck out of me, so it looks like there's room in the inn. I frankly am not too worried about the deeper manifestations of this Thread of Profundity, but yes, I am fairly sure, that despite all, he is talking about the U.S. You know, anything goes when the first person starts in on a new Conspiracy Theory. And one thing that always marks the initiator is that they say the burden of proof is on them, then promptly put it on someone else, while simultaneeously indicating their own extreme identification with powerlessness. It's a kind of club, but you I'm through with, you're not even a clever sophist.

Becoming--I was asleep while you were debating this, so I wasn't able to comment. First, let's return to the what I wrote in the OP--I'm not claiming any of this as fact. These were notions that bounced around in my head for years that resulted from various things I've heard or read and I thought I'd use this forum to put them out there and challenge them and learn new perspectives. So far, I've learned quite a bit. Thanks to everyone for contributing.

Second, I never said the US government because this wasn't about the US government. I merely believed some government had a hand in the creation of HIV/AIDS. Unlike Rev Wright, I do not believe that HIV was created to wipe out Blacks. My original theory was that a government created HIV as a form of germ warfare and tested it in Africa. If I was pressed to name the government most likely to do this, it wouldn't be the US--there is another major super-power that makes far more sense to me.

One of the cool things that came out of the discussion is that someone provided an article, which not only traces some of the various origins of HIV but also supports the notion that the idea that a government had a hand in the creation of HIV is not far-fetched at all. That article is here:

Blaming Gays, Blacks, and Chimps for AIDS--- Are species-jumping animal virus experiments responsible for the HIV Holocaust?  by Alan Cantwell, M.D.

Feel free to check it out and share your thoughts with me. I'm not here to fight anyone about this issue. I wanted to expose a belief that I am not vested in but nevertheless have always wondered. I'm glad to have the opportunity to challenge these beliefs and learn and grow and I'm thrilled that others have engaged me in a reasonable and mature manner. Thanks guys.

 

[homelessmandril]

Well I suppose it IS possible, isn't it?

But wouldn't you think that if the technology existed in the 1970s to engineer the HIV virus, we would have a viable cure by now? Especially since HIV afflicts so many is so many countries. I have shit all knowledge of immunology, or whatever field it is we're dealing with, but it seems to me you would have to have a more or less encyclopaedic knowledge of an organism to manipulate it on a genetic level (which I think is the gist of the conspiracy theory). And in possession of that knowledge, wouldn't it then be relatively easy to engineer a vaccine? The current state of technology, which as far as I'm aware stretches to some fairly sophisticated retrovirals, suggests a superficial understanding of how the virus perpetuates itself, rather than a comprehensive one.

That is of course, provided that the conspiratorial geniuses responsible haven't suppressed details of some cure they've developed. But then you get to thinking why would they: HIV is worthless in a military sense, and afflicts both black and white people alike (so the eugenics argument goes out the window really). Besides, if HIV were really a plot to depopulate Africa, someone ought to have considered the implications for foreign aid commitments; it would certainly be an expensive and protracted way of going about it.

Admittedly the rogue-monkey-bites-human story does sound a bit spurious. That said, viruses evolve faster than just about any other organism on earth (I think I read that somewhere), so we can't rule out the possibility that HIV was just a mutant aberration somewhere. That's the most boring explanation, which probably makes it the truest.

 

[D_Thoraxis_Biggulp]

Sure, you would think that they would have developed a cure by now if they were the same people responsible for engineering or even spreading the virus. But it's strongly possible, with statements such as yours as evidence, that we're talking about two different parties when we discuss the engineering of the disease and the engineering of the cure. And with how much it evolves along with the nature of it, it makes sense to have not found a cure yet.

 

[homelessmandril]

Sure, you would think that they would have developed a cure by now if they were the same people responsible for engineering or even spreading the virus. But it's strongly possible, with statements such as yours as evidence, that we're talking about two different parties when we discuss the engineering of the disease and the engineering of the cure. And with how much it evolves along with the nature of it, it makes sense to have not found a cure yet.

what i'm saying is if the conspiracy theory is true, HIV has obviously failed to serve whatever purpose it was intended for. It doesn't kill or debilitate effectively enough to be used as a weapon, and the black population of Africa is still growing......I don't know, what other objectives can we think of? So given the enormous financial incentives that exist to reveal a marketable cure, why wouldn't you go for it?

And if it WAS US government scientists who formulated the virus in the first place, wouldn't there be some pressure on them from the higher-ups, given what a large fraction of the US AID budget is absorbed by sub-Saharan Africa?

I can't buy it. Consider Resident Evil: even the Umbrella Corporation botherered to come up with an antidote for the T-Virus, and that barely made it beyond Raccoon City, let alone across the entire world

So to summarise my viewpoint, if HIV WAS purposively created, a cure would exist. And those responsible for it would have incentives to disclose said cure. I come down on the side of random mutation rather than intelligent design.

 

[D_Thoraxis_Biggulp]

Your first mistake is limiting it to just the US government.
Your second mistake is thinking that all governments think in such capitalistic terms.
Your third mistake is comparing the failure of the operation, all while assuming it's the US, to the success of an entity in a sci-fi franchise.

 

[HyperHulk]

what i'm saying is if the conspiracy theory is true, HIV has obviously failed to serve whatever purpose it was intended for. It doesn't kill or debilitate effectively enough to be used as a weapon, and the black population of Africa is still growing......I don't know, what other objectives can we think of? So given the enormous financial incentives that exist to reveal a marketable cure, why wouldn't you go for it?

And if it WAS US government scientists who formulated the virus in the first place, wouldn't there be some pressure on them from the higher-ups, given what a large fraction of the US AID budget is absorbed by sub-Saharan Africa?

I can't buy it. Consider Resident Evil: even the Umbrella Corporation botherered to come up with an antidote for the T-Virus, and that barely made it beyond Raccoon City, let alone across the entire world

So to summarise my viewpoint, if HIV WAS purposively created, a cure would exist. And those responsible for it would have incentives to disclose said cure. I come down on the side of random mutation rather than intelligent design.

Some of us have responded to the points you raised earlier in the thread, but yeah, I wouldn't want anyone to read through all the pages to get to that either.:biggrin1:

My original theory wasn't that HIV was created to depopulate Africa--there's no value in that--but that it was used on Africans as test subjects because for the most part, people ignore Africans--look at Darfur and what's happening in the Sudan.

As for the cure issue, that one is simpler: either it's mutated beyond control or a cure exists but isn't used. Which is not too different than the other forms of energy and fuel that have been created but bought up by oil companies so their control isn't destroyed. What I argued is: if you don't mind 3rd world deaths, gays dying, drug users dying, or people having unsafe sex dying and you love the enormous profits made from HIV (through drugs and medical attention) then there is less incentive to cure HIV.

The other part of my theory was that HIV was created under a logical premise--let's see if we can suppress the immune system in humans. And maybe then it got out of control before a cure could even be found?

Lots of different possibilities. Here's what we know, around the time of the cold war, HIV exploded on the scene out of no where and has now affected over 65 million lives globally in 30 years. All of that from someone eating a monkey in Africa?

 

[homelessmandril]

Your first mistake is limiting it to just the US government.
Your second mistake is thinking that all governments think in such capitalistic terms.
Your third mistake is comparing the failure of the operation, all while assuming it's the US, to the success of an entity in a sci-fi franchise.

hmmm, okay that's interesting.....who else should we be thinking of? I don't buy the USSR, they would have leaked the cure as a gesture of good faith when the wall came down......China? possibly to suppress resource prices through economic turmoil in Africa......North Korea? too incompetent.

let's hear some ideas then.....


PS, sci-fi?! please, survival horror! and i really do think the Umbrella Corporation is a good archetype for an insane, quasi-governmental menace. they were also selfish enough (or foresighted enough) to consider the possibility they themselves would become infected, hence all the effort to come up with an antidote.

 

[D_Thoraxis_Biggulp]

Personally, I think it was naturally occurring, but it's spread was the work of human hands with malicious intent. Perhaps Africa was a testing ground for what was meant to be a terrorist/extremist attack, but it got out of hand. As I've said before, since a cure apparently wasn't developed by those who spread it, we're looking at an organization with a high disregard for human lives, including their own. Thus these extremist organizations who regularly participate in suicide bombings are the best suspects, as far as I'm concerned.
If it was man-made, however, I think India has the capability to manufacture such a thing, even if by accident. I don't think they're responsible for spreading it, unless it was by mistake as a result of the testing in Africa. But they are in close enough proximity to known extremist territories that it could have been stolen.

Yeh, Umbrella is a good archetype, but their operations are a little too perfect. There would be far more complications than just Alice.