Gov't Eavesdropping Ruled Unconstitutional

JustAsking

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madame_zora said:
*fucks JA in the left ear.* Ahem, pardon me.
Oh! Pas de quoi, Madame.

I love this place. You make an angry political posting and suddenly find yourself in the middle of an orgy.

DC,
Yes, I was just amending your post with an example. Also, I was warming up to this:


If anyone has any doubt about the source of rights in America, they only need to look as far as the Declaration of Independence. To wit:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed..."


Teacher: "Now class, according to the Declaration of Independence, who endows men with their rights? "
Class: "Their Creator!"

Teacher: "What does that mean?"
Class: "Men are born with their rights."

Teacher: "Are these rights easily removed?"
Class: "No, they are unalienable."

Teacher: "And what does unalienable mean?"
Class: "incapable of being alienated, surrendered, or transferred!" (from Webster)

Teacher: "Very good! Now how do we secure these rights?"
Class: "We institute a government.'"

Teacher: "And where does the government derive its power?"
Class: "From the consent of the governed."

Teacher: "Very good!!! Class dismissed."
 

DC_DEEP

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Lex, Zora, you have to get in line. If JA ever decides to stray, I've got first dibs! He's mine, I tells ya, he's mine!
 

DC_DEEP

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Speaking of government eavesdropping and electronic surveillance, what do you guys think THIS site does to the NSA 'bots? People use lots of "hot-words" that the 'bots probably hit on a daily basis, like "hijacked thread" or "explosive orgasm."
 

JustAsking

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Thanks for all the good words, everyone. I was beginning to think I was just a thread-killer, but now I see that I am a thread-killer with a couple of fans.

DC, I think you are right. This board probably zings the NSA's AI all the time. I am thinking about encrypting my postings. I have a the latest encryption technology here at the JustAsking Institute:

- .... .- -.- ... .- --. .- .. -.
 

DC_DEEP

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JustAsking said:
Thanks for all the good words, everyone. I was beginning to think I was just a thread-killer, but now I see that I am a thread-killer with a couple of fans.
You are kidding me, right? I've been a big fan of yours since I first started reading your posts. I'm usually good at sharing, but if you ever decide to venture to the dark side, I'll claw Lex's and Madame's eyes out if they get in my way... LOL they can have whatever you have left after I'm worn out. (Just kidding and flirting, of course. I just have a fetish for guys with fully functional brains.)
DC, I think you are right. This board probably zings the NSA's AI all the time. I am thinking about encrypting my postings. I have a the latest encryption technology here at the JustAsking Institute:

- .... .- -.- ... .- --. .- .. -.
<in my best "idiot sheeple" voice...> Oh, so now your posting in morris coat. You must be one of them James Bond guys....
 

DC_DEEP

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JA, I'll be serious here for a moment...

I was politically naïve, and thought history was boring, until I took an American Government and History class in college, with a really good professor. We spent only the minimum time necessary with the "names and dates" part of it, and really delved into the "hows and whys". It opened up a whole new world for me. When it came time for a "writing assignment" (he didn't like the term "test"), only 5% was on memorized names and dates. The rest was all essay questions, like:

What was the public reasoning for the return to the gold standard, and what do you think was the actual reasoning? How did that affect the economy? Who profited, and who lost, because of this change? 10 points.

Until that time, I thought I didn't like essay questions, but I was never good at memorizing the laundry-lists that all my previous history teachers presented. It taught me to see beneath the surface of what's going on in the world around me.

Your posts are just like being back in his class. The amusing part of it is, everyone on campus knew his name, and most students were terrified of him and avoided any of his classes. Other students would get horror-stricken expressions when I disagreed with him in class, but I understood that at times, he would present a concept he WANTED disagreement on. The bad part was, if you disagreed with him in class, he required you to BACK UP your dissent with a logical debate.

It was the same in my Philosophy and Logic class. For the first couple of weeks, I was the only student in the class who would disagree with the professor - but he took obvious pleasure in our discussions.

It's just so refreshing to have that kind of discourse in this forum. Please give me more!
 

Lex

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A professor who challenged you to think critically and develop higher order thinking and expressive skills. A teacher who understood that authentic learning happens when skills are learned and applied in context, rather that memorized as rote fact. Refreshing.

My 9th grade U.S. Gov't teacher was like that: he had to drill dates into us because the curriculum demanded it, but he also challenged us to think and consider and apply the knowledge we were amassing within the legal context of the world around us. He would use concrete examples like our school's ludicrous dress code (no shirts without collars for boys) to discuss the limits of free speech and expression in schools. It was fascinating. I can still recall several of his classes.
 

JustAsking

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I agree that history is usually taught really badly. I think it is worse than math. I remember almost nothing from high school history. I don't even remember any of the classes or the teachers.

It is strange because it is an extremely dynamic and exciting topic. It has the full range of human drama and struggle around the world. You would think a good teacher could make the subject absolutely riveting.

Unfortunately, there may be a good reason why it is not. The whole system of textbook manufacture, procurement, and distribution is basically broken. Every step of the way, ignorant people make all the important decisions on what subject matter gets in front of the student. The makers of textbooks want to sell as many as they can, so they make sure there is nothing controversial in them. They are pandering to the people who choose the textbooks. In some states there is one small committee who chooses the textbooks for the whole state. Whatever you do, don't read this book. It will really make you mad.

Then the teachers and school administrations are also trying to avoid controversy. We can't even teach science without looking over our shoulders these days. It's no wonder we get almost nothing out of history.

The sad thing is that a system of government like ours requires an educated and informed electorate to really work well. And since that is not happening, we find people all over the place who think its perfectly ok to say things like if we don't have anything to hide, why care about wiretapping. Or that we get our rights from the President, as if the French Revolution was never fought over the Divine Right of Kings.

Its good that you both had a good experience with at least one history teacher. My interest came later in life born out of a concern for social justice. I think it also may have grown out of seeds planted in me as a young hippie in the VietNam, Nixon and Watergate era.

I have one interesting story that changed the way I look at our amazing system of government. After college I worked for a university building scientific instruments for the chemistry department. I hung out with all the grad students and postdocs, most of whom were foreigners. One day while eating lunch we were discussing a topic that was in the news. Some parents had hired someone to kidnap their own daughter back from the Moonies compound and "deprogram" her from their influence. A couple of us Americans were debating whether it was Constitutional or not. The foreign guys were pretty silent during that part until one of them, a Jordanian, said, "Hey you guys actually take this Constitution seriously, don't you?" I don't know who was more surprised. The foreigners' surprise in seeing us regard the Constitution as a foundational document or our surprise at their surprise. They couldn't quite grasp the concept of a government of laws and not of men. Or that the President is a civil servant.

Ever since that day, I can't help think about how unlikely a document it is in that it goes against thousands of years of self-seeking human behavior. And I can't help thinking how incredible it is that once it was established it has lasted over 200 years, or how many people died throughout European and American history to bring it about, and how fragile it is as it gets its power only from our faith in it and our regard for it.

These days I am afraid for it, though. Its worst enemy is not Islamic terrorism. It is American self-ignorance.
 

DC_DEEP

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JustAsking, much as I hate to do it, I must insist that you stop posting altogether. I just simply cannot withstand such overload.

Actually, I agree in part with your assessment of the history textbook situation. I would have to say, though, that for the textbooks themselves to do what needs to be done, the kids would be carrying around the equivalent of a 20-volume encyclopedia. The real progress needs to be in training history teachers. That way, the books could present the factual information (the names and dates and events) and then the teacher helps the students understand all they "whys"... why is it important, why did it happen, all the other good stuff. That's really how my "good experience" happened. We used the textbooks a little, but mostly discussed and debated issues in class. The textbook was strictly "outside reading." Every previous history teacher I ever had would pretty much just recited from the textbook (or even at the worst, I had one whose class consisted of him saying "ya'll read chapter 11 and answer the questions at the end of the chapter.") Absorb trivia. Regurgitate trivia. Forget trivia 15 minutes after the test. Unfortunately, our whole educational system (thanks, government oversight and standards!) has gone to "teaching to the test" rather than "teaching to the knowledge." And that, perhaps, is what has set us up for the trap we find ourselves in, wondering how the hell we can escape it.

One of these days, I'm just simply going to have to make a trip to Ohio to spend a couple of days discussing philosophy with you.
 

SpeedoGuy

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DC_DEEP said:
Every previous history teacher I ever had would pretty much just recited from the textbook (or even at the worst, I had one whose class consisted of him saying "ya'll read chapter 11 and answer the questions at the end of the chapter.") Absorb trivia. Regurgitate trivia.

Rote memorization and regurgitation was pretty much my experience too. Actual thinking and discussing were not engaged much. What history I've learned has mostly come on my own reading and exploration.

Unfortunately this is symptomatic of so much of our education, particularly civics and history which are so important to our national character and well being. I mean no offense to educators but the "whys" that are explained by the teachers are every bit as important as the "whats" contained in the textbooks. Both are necesary to a good civics education and we're not doing a good job there, though we could if we wanted to.

JustAsking said:
These days I am afraid for it, though. Its worst enemy is not Islamic terrorism. It is American self-ignorance.

And proud, wilful ignorance at that. Most Americans have a strong opinion about the war in Iraq. Far fewer of them could actually locate Iraq on a map.
 

DC_DEEP

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SpeedoGuy said:
<...>
I mean no offense to educators but the "whys" that are explained by the teachers are every bit as important as the "whats" contained in the textbooks. Both are necesary to a good civics education and we're not doing a good job there, though we could if we wanted to...
And as a former educator, no offense taken. As for what's important, don't take that up with the teachers - take it up with Mr. No-Child-Left-Behind and with local school boards.

Most teachers really do want to do a good job; many of those are capable of doing a good job. What interferes is the federal government setting unrealistic and irrelavent goals, in unfunded federal mandates; and local school boards, rarely composed of professional educators, making school policy and allocating funds.

But the bottom line is still, the average American just really has no clue about what the federal government is, what it is supposed to be, what its rights and restrictions and responsibilities are, and what is dysfunctional with the current administration.