Granting Abdulmutallab U.S. citizen rights will cost lives

[SilverTrain]

I find it highly contradictory that the same mentality that so loudly and vehemently decried opposition to the US entering into a war in Iraq on the grounds that such opposition was "un-American", traitorous, etc., is now loudly and vehemently denouncing those who seek to preserve civil rights enumerated in the US Constitution. The ultimate irony is that those who oppose the preservation of rights granted by the Constitution have the gall to insinuate that those who seek to uphold the rule of law are somehow taking part in some leftist, pinko manuevering.

A pathetic load of bollocks, and a sad state of affairs, indeed.

 

[B_starinvestor]

I find it highly contradictory that the same mentality that so loudly and vehemently decried opposition to the US entering into a war in Iraq on the grounds that such opposition was "un-American", traitorous, etc., is now loudly and vehemently denouncing those who seek to preserve civil rights enumerated in the US Constitution. The ultimate irony is that those who oppose the preservation of rights granted by the Constitution have the gall to insinuate that those who seek to uphold the rule of law are somehow taking part in some leftist, pinko manuevering.

A pathetic load of bollocks, and a sad state of affairs, indeed.

No one is 'denouncing' civil rights to U.S. citizens.

I am, however, suggesting the validity of enhanced interrogation measures on a NON-US citizen that just tried to murder 300 people.

Just so there's no confusion.

 

[Jason]

I'm a Brit, not a citizen of the USofA. Most of the time the UK supports the USA and most of the time Brits are hapy about this. There are two areas that strain this relationship:
1) Use of what the poster above calls "enhanced interrogation measures". You mean torture. And water-boarding was torture - seemingly sometimes purely a recreation for sadists - sanctioned by the last US president. The US waterboarded some poor guy over 150 times. Can any of us get our heads around the horror of this? This is beyond any effort to extract information, just torture for the fun of torture. At least in the middle ages torture victims died before it got this bad.
2) The death sentence. The world has grown up and America needs to also. "Thou shalt not kill" means thou shalt not kill. The death sentence is counterproductive, leads to miscarriages of justice, is beyond defence in a civilised society. Rather it is social vengeance perpetrated because the political leaders are too big a lot of wimps to lead the change in popular views.

Get these two issues sorted out and Brits could like the USA a whole lot more. Right now I'm very happy that the USA did not torture a non-US citizen who (presumably) tried to murdr 300 people. Such action would have been the action of a rather stupid and immature regime.

 

[vince]

No one is 'denouncing' civil rights to U.S. citizens.

I am, however, suggesting the validity of enhanced interrogation measures on a NON-US citizen that just tried to murder 300 people.

Just so there's no confusion.

We've heard your griping. So what's your solution? Haul him off the airplane and have the FBI put a bullet between the eyes?

Oh wait.. I just re-read your pea-brained rant... They should dip him in hot lava until he rats out his comrades.

You are either trolling or you're truly an idiot. Scared, easily duped little minds like your's are a bigger threat to freedom than al Quida.

 

[B_starinvestor]

I'm a Brit, not a citizen of the USofA. Most of the time the UK supports the USA and most of the time Brits are hapy about this. There are two areas that strain this relationship:
1) Use of what the poster above calls "enhanced interrogation measures". You mean torture. And water-boarding was torture - seemingly sometimes purely a recreation for sadists - sanctioned by the last US president. The US waterboarded some poor guy over 150 times. Can any of us get our heads around the horror of this? This is beyond any effort to extract information, just torture for the fun of torture. At least in the middle ages torture victims died before it got this bad.
2) The death sentence. The world has grown up and America needs to also. "Thou shalt not kill" means thou shalt not kill. The death sentence is counterproductive, leads to miscarriages of justice, is beyond defence in a civilised society. Rather it is social vengeance perpetrated because the political leaders are too big a lot of wimps to lead the change in popular views.

Get these two issues sorted out and Brits could like the USA a whole lot more. Right now I'm very happy that the USA did not torture a non-US citizen who (presumably) tried to murdr 300 people. Such action would have been the action of a rather stupid and immature regime.

If I can point this quote out again, "a non-US citizen who (presumably) tried to murdr 300 people."

Presumably?? Do you think that 300 people on one plane are all involved in a conspiracy, along with the perp's father to invent this event? LOL. Whatever.

Secondly, I completely disagree with you on the death penalty. If someone exists that wants nothing else than to murder people and already has murdered people - why should we be burdened with paying upwards of $35,000 per year for his food/shelter/care etc? He offers no benefit to society and nothing but inflicting horror and violence. If it happens to be a 21 year old terrorist, it would cost us $2.1 million if he lives to age 81.

Waste of money. Waste of air. Waste of space. All risk/no benefit whatsoever. Destroy it.

In every walk of life, every job, every family there are miscarraiges of justice and people that do things wrong.

That doesn't mean you just eliminate every walk of life, every family and every job. You do the best you can and try to improve the system. Just because 'one guy' presumably got waterboarded 150 times doesn't mean enhanced interrogation is ultimately ineffective. It means one guy misused the system. Presumably.

 

[slurper_la]

what a dumb ass

'Foriegn nationals' and 'known member of Al Queda who indisputably tried to fry 300 innocent people' can be placed into two different camps without much trouble.

yet he was in the airplane toilet for twenty minutes complaining of a stomach ache before returning to his seat where he could been easliy seen by those around him. if he truly intended to blow up the plane why not set off the bomb while in the toilet? perhaps he's just a media whore?

The latter:
1. Is not a citizen - no but he was granted a US visa under the Bush administration and has traveled to and from the US three times in the past five years
2. Is a killer - well, no, actually he failed at that
3. Is a terrorist - yes he is, trained by 5 of the 13 terrorists Bush released from Guantanamo and sent to Yemen
4. Didn't even check baggage - doubtful/ only intention was mass murder - failure
5. Does not deserve 'due process' or anything of the sort. Deserves to be dipped in lava until he gives more details about the next attacks. - as if. if we knew torture was an effective means of obtaining useful information you'd be hog tied right now.

One other thing to keep in mind - that guy gets that bomb detonated and kills those people, and Obama is laying around in a beach chair in Waikiki watching locals in thongs....would be more fallout than reading childrens books to young pupils during a terrorist attack; no? _ Actually, following the attempted "shoe bombing" Bush was on vacation in TexASS and didn't bother to comment for SIX FUCKING DAYS

Please shut the hell up you pathetic tool

 

[B_starinvestor]

We've heard your griping. So what's your solution? Haul him off the airplane and have the FBI put a bullet between the eyes?

Oh wait.. I just re-read your pea-brained rant... They should dip him in hot lava until he rats out his comrades.

You are either trolling or you're truly an idiot. Scared, easily duped little minds like your's are a bigger threat to freedom than al Quida.

Well we disagree. People that precalculate and try to murder hundreds of people don't deserve 'freedom' in my book.

In yours, obviously, these people are very important and aren't much of a threat.

Good day.

 

[B_starinvestor]

what a dumb ass



Please shut the hell up you pathetic tool

If that red writing in your last post was your response; you must live in the trunk of somebody's car. You are incorrect on almost every word of the response.

 

[Qua]

No one is 'denouncing' civil rights to U.S. citizens.

I am, however, suggesting the validity of enhanced interrogation measures on a NON-US citizen that just tried to murder 300 people.

Just so there's no confusion.

He's a captured criminal. He is subject to the rights of any captured criminal held on US soil. If you are for compromising our national integrity over an incompetent Nigerian criminal who may have information marginally helpful for our security, please remind me what is conservative about violating our founding principles (philosophical ideals which are not temporally exclusive to 1789).

You are taking very liberal steps with the constitution, legal and moral precedent of this country. Please do not lay claim to the name of a conservative ideology if you do not follow its meaning and disingenuously preach the opposite. The very argument you use, that the principles of revolution do not apply today, is the same used by "libtards" to justify loose-constitutionalist creations such as the graduated wage tax, government funded abortion, affirmative action and every other program that takes liberty with the constitution. You cannot pick and choose where liberties should be taken and wear they shouldn't if you want to consider yourself a conservative.

Conservatism =\= Bush Doctrine. At all.

 

[HazelGod]

You are either trolling or you're truly an idiot.

The winning money is on both.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

The revolution? Because terrorists should be given due process? Please re-read some history books.

We do not "give" people due process. A RIGHT is not something you are given... it is something you have.
Everyone already HAS civil right... even if it take a court action to get the government or other citizens to agree.

Read Paine.
Read jefferson
Read Madison.


look, Star...you seem to be woefully undereducated in regards to actual reasoning.
Let me walk you thru this...
See, terrorism is a CRIME.
Waging war is not.
We can hold ( but not torture ) enemy combatants for as long as we have a declaration of war... and thereafter we HAVE TO RELEASE THEM. They can not be held indefinitely.

Secondly, we do NOT have a declaration of war, ergo, terrorists are NOT enemy combatants. ( no one to actually declare war on is a bit of impediment- you can not declare war on a tactic )

Third- classifying them as enemy not only legitimizes their actions, it exonerates them from accusations of Murder. An enemy combatant is NOT a murderer... he is waging a lawfully recognized war, defending his own side.


and here's the real kicker...

If you want to REALLY strip away a person's rights and hold them in prison for the rest of their lives, here in the US, you HAVE TO CONVICT THEM OF A CRIME.
The penalty for air piracy and terrorism is Life Imprisonment.

There is no such penalty allowed for in holding enemy combatants, unless you can convict them of a "war Crime" and - frankly killing or trying to kill the enemy is NOT a crime in war. Carrying out operations masterminded by your superiors is not a war crime either.

All those nazi and japanese fascist soldiers we captured in WWII?
WE LET THEM ALL GO.


So, please... wake up and bone up on some real law and real history and try to wrap your head around the fact that DUE PROCESS is the MEANS by which government denies a person the rights they already have.

And, seriously... given that he was caught red handed... what to you think is the likelihood of this guy being found innocent...

please, regale me with all the terrorists or hijackers ever caught ON THE PLANE who were found not guilty or let go on a technicality...


Stop listening to Fox News... it is literally eating your brain away.

Please try and THINK like an American.

You want to make SURE these guys NEVER walk the street again?
Convict them of a crime that has life imprisonment as penalty.

 

[vince]

Well we disagree. People that precalculate and try to murder hundreds of people don't deserve 'freedom' in my book.

In yours, obviously, these people are very important and aren't much of a threat.

Good day.

Your argument is so weak that now you are trying to put words in my mouth. I didn't say he deserved freedom. He deserves due process.

Where is it obvious that I think "these people are very important and aren't much of a threat."? Disregarding the contradiction in that statement, please point out where I wrote or implied that?

YOUR and liked minded people's, muddled understanding of your own nation's law, history and traditions and your willingness to throw all of it under the bus, is a HUGE threat to freedom.

You just don't get it do you?

Is the the judicial system in America so weak that it can't deal with a terrorist? I think not. Someone listed a half dozen or so that have been put to death or are locked up.

You may think the asshole deserves to die and that's fine. I don't care. You're entitled to your opinion. But to seriously argue that American law should be tossed out and some second set of rules should apply to foreigners is mad.

Really Star, on this one you are way out there. Give it up.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

No one is 'denouncing' civil rights to U.S. citizens.

I am, however, suggesting the validity of enhanced interrogation measures on a NON-US citizen that just tried to murder 300 people.

Just so there's no confusion.

You don't honestly think we couldn't figure that out with your OP? Seriously star, just how dense do you think people are on this board?

Be honest... the real issue isn't about how many people he tried to kill, regardless of how large of a font you use. It's all about the person being a "Non-US Citizen" that gets to you, and much to your chagrin, there's still a process that needs to be adhered to. The same process that Bush had to do when the Shoe Bomber, another "Non-US Citizen", tried to kill hundreds of people on a plane with a similar tactic. Funny how several people have pointed this out to you, and you've yet to address it.

So, get to the REAL reason why this bothers you. You think we should treat non-citizens differently? You feel as if we should have a right to torture this guy for what he tried to do? Pissed off that our government is seeking out a more humane approach to dealing with the situation? And if your answer is yes to any of this, are you willing to accept the fact that Bush also made a mistake when prosecuting the Shoe Bomber? Lots to think about, I know... but please do.

All I know is that you can come out of your bomb shelter. The terrorists weren't after you back during the Bush Administration, and they're not after you now.

 

[B_starinvestor]

He's a captured criminal. He is subject to the rights of any captured criminal held on US soil. If you are for compromising our national integrity over an incompetent Nigerian criminal who may have information marginally helpful for our security, please remind me what is conservative about violating our founding principles (philosophical ideals which are not temporally exclusive to 1789).

Do you have any idea how many times our founding principles have been altered/amended/changed since the drawing of the original document?

You are taking very liberal steps with the constitution, legal and moral precedent of this country. Please do not lay claim to the name of a conservative ideology if you do not follow its meaning and disingenuously preach the opposite.

We did not have planes, nor did we have suicide bombers, nor did we have Al Queda when the constitution was inked.

Jefferson, Madison, Adams, et al didn't have Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab in mind when they determined who the recipients of due process should be. They had U.S. citizens in mind - and created a framework in which the gov't couldn't become too powerful for the best interests of its citizens.

The very argument you use, that the principles of revolution do not apply today, is the same used by "libtards" to justify loose-constitutionalist creations such as the graduated wage tax, government funded abortion, affirmative action and every other program that takes liberty with the constitution. You cannot pick and choose where liberties should be taken and wear they shouldn't if you want to consider yourself a conservative.

Perhaps you have a point here. Yet you are stipulating that the liberals did in fact get those 'interpretations' written into law; but I, as a conservative shouldn't have the right to question why another cannot be added to protect the lives of hundreds or thousands?

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Do you have any idea how many times our founding principles have been altered/amended/changed since the drawing of the original document?

Everything our founding fathers wrote in the Constitution was created with the facility to amend when necessary. It was never intended to be a set of unalterable rules. To complain about how many things have "changed" is ridiculous.

 

[B_starinvestor]

Everything our founding fathers wrote in the Constitution was created with the facility to amend when necessary. It was never intended to be a set of unalterable rules. To complain about how many things have "changed" is ridiculous.

i think you missed the context of the post. My point is that so many things have been altered/amended, that there shouldn't be a 'constitutional' battlecry on the issue of enhanced interrogation.

 

[Jason]

Presumably?? Do you think that 300 people on one plane are all involved in a conspiracy, along with the perp's father to invent this event? LOL. Whatever.

Secondly, I completely disagree with you on the death penalty. If someone exists that wants nothing else than to murder people and already has murdered people - why should we be burdened with paying upwards of $35,000 per year for his food/shelter/care etc? He offers no benefit to society and nothing but inflicting horror and violence. If it happens to be a 21 year old terrorist, it would cost us $2.1 million if he lives to age 81.

Waste of money. Waste of air. Waste of space. All risk/no benefit whatsoever. Destroy it.

In every walk of life, every job, every family there are miscarraiges of justice and people that do things wrong.

That doesn't mean you just eliminate every walk of life, every family and every job. You do the best you can and try to improve the system. Just because 'one guy' presumably got waterboarded 150 times doesn't mean enhanced interrogation is ultimately ineffective. It means one guy misused the system. Presumably.

The media coverage suggests that it is most likely that this guy is guilty. But until due process (ie the verdict of a trial) says that he is guilty we have only presumption of guilt and it is usual to reflect this in the language used. After all none of us have seen the evidence that will ultimately be looked at by a court and there is a small possibility that the media might somehow have got their facts wrong - it has been known.

In society we all pay the costs of crime, including the costs of keeping criminals in prison. In most cases the assumption is that the time in prison will be a certain term and that the individual will return to society. There should be an element of retraining and re-education within a prison system - this seems to be stronger in the UK than in the US (and it is not particularly strong in the UK). The position is more complicated for people on a life sentence. Miscarriages of justice aren't as rare as we would like to think and a capital sentence does not reflect this. There are also concepts of mercy, as recently applied to a terrorist by a Scottish court (incidentally a decision I disagree with, but an interesting one nonetheless). It is an old fashioned concept, but someone who has committed a terrible crime needs time to repent before they face God's judgment and it is not for erring mankind to hurry the process. A more pragmatic point is that the death penalty in some states of the USA is doing damage to the USA and to its allies.

Torture is torture and against international law. The USA has damaged its reputation around the world. I cannot think of a clearer recruiting call for Islamic terrorists than evidence that the "great satan" practices recreational torture against Islamic zealots. Has Guantanamo Bay created thousands of new Islamic terrorists? Or tens of thousands? Or is it even more? It is hard to imagine a greater own goal for the USA.

As a Brit I don't have to support Republican or Democrat. I do have to say that Bush's authorisation of torture crosses lines and only questions of scale distinguish this from the actions of nasty regimes around the world. And I do have to say that Obama's prompt ending of torture by the CIA is a right action.

With a bit of luck the UK will have a new government in the next few months. That Conservative government will be able to deal well with a USA that acts as the USA is now acting. By contrast there would be immediate fireworks if Guantanamo Bay was still torturing human beings. The proposed British "Bill of Rights" which looks like being part of the Conservative manifesto would require the UK to condemn torture anywhere.

 

[B_starinvestor]

As a Brit I don't have to support Republican or Democrat. I do have to say that Bush's authorisation of torture crosses lines and only questions of scale distinguish this from the actions of nasty regimes around the world. And I do have to say that Obama's prompt ending of torture by the CIA is a right action.

I am in complete agreement that a lot of the interrogation methods went too far under Bush, and now the entire system has a stigma that has fucked up the entire thrust of these methods - to the point that we can't even use them in the most extreme of circumstances.

Obama's prompt ending of torture was a popular action; but not necessarily right, IMO.

 

[B_ccc888]

Outlaw any cults that believe

1. Women are less equal than men
2. Polygamy
3. Non believers should be persecuted and annihilated.
4. The answer on criticism on their cult dogmas is
nothing but death penalty.
5. Brainwashing their followers to blow up anything
to please their FALSE IDOL.

It's ridiculous for all our Politician and Media to remain silently on so many Muslim extremists and say none to any Islamic nations that still using Islam to incite hatred and to justify apartheid policies in their nations.

and here at home we have Christian fundamentalists who mind about "gay marriage" and yet hypocritically silent to see all immoralities happening on the straight couples.

Unbelievable.

 

[mitchymo]

I am in complete agreement that a lot of the interrogation methods went too far under Bush, and now the entire system has a stigma that has fucked up the entire thrust of these methods - to the point that we can't even use them in the most extreme of circumstances.

Obama's prompt ending of torture was a popular action; but not necessarily right, IMO.

I can't see ANY circumstances so extreme that warrant any kind of method that forces someone to talk. This kind of thing allows abuse. Sure you might get critical info from someone about such and such that is of benefit but the same method can be used to force a confession for something not committed.