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Greek Tradition
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No, I doubt that's true in 2008... BC08 maybe.
It is true of some south American jungle tribes however. Until a man is 'a man' it's perfectly normal for them to sexual relationship with other males. I'll see if I can find their name.
Also, Greek and more so Italian cultures, 'giving' is not considered to be a overly gay act, it's the 'receiving' that is.
So you're straight if you fuck your wife and your best mate up the arse and only gay if your the best mate being fucked up the arse, wife or not.
It is true of some south American jungle tribes however. Until a man is 'a man' it's perfectly normal for them to sexual relationship with other males. I'll see if I can find their name.
Also, Greek and more so Italian cultures, 'giving' is not considered to be a overly gay act, it's the 'receiving' that is.
So you're straight if you fuck your wife and your best mate up the arse and only gay if your the best mate being fucked up the arse, wife or not.
Sexual initiation of young males died in the early days of Athenian culture.
The Etoro tribe in New Guinea apparently still practices it though.
Etoro - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I remember we studied them in Anthropology.
The Etoro tribe in New Guinea apparently still practices it though.
Etoro - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I remember we studied them in Anthropology.
midlifebear
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Ahhhh, those plucky Etoros! I remember studying about their sexual rituals, too; back when I was a young and innocent Anthropology undergrad. I remember thinking to myself that if I ever had the means and the time I would like to travel to New Guinea and check out this research for myself. I've now the time and the money, but not the interest. I attribute no longer having the interest to sort out if the Etoros are still up to their wiley ways upon discovering a seemingly endless queue of young (18 years) and older men enthusiastically willing to volunteer to relieve me of my "life force" long before I was an undergrad.
Still, a nature vacation in the cloud forests of New Guinea would be green and lush. Does Quantas fly to New Guinea?
Still, a nature vacation in the cloud forests of New Guinea would be green and lush. Does Quantas fly to New Guinea?
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It needs to be noted that there was no "initiation" involved in classical Hellenic pederasty. While there may have been in its origins, which may or may not be from the pre-classical Minoans from Crete, by the time the Athenians, Spartans (properly to classical Greece, the Lakedaimonians) and the Thebans were practicing it there was no trace of initiation left. Further, a male citizen would never be caught (or admit to) being penetrated before he reached the age of majority. There were serious consequences for this, especially in Athens. Also, men over 30 typically did not take eromenoi. Once a man was married (typically around 30) he was expected to quit practicing pederasty, though random slaves and prostitutes were acceptable. Teenage boys usually became eromenoi around 14 and graduated to being an erastes around 17/18 - back then that's when you'd have hit puberty full on. Between 19 and 30 you would take your own eromenos (or two).
Further, anal penetration was excedingly rare. Men usually fucked each others' closed legs - between the thighs or "intercutially" (which Abraham Lincoln is rumoured to have preferred) - all lubed up with olive oil.
Basically, between 12 and 30 the only access to women classical Greek men had were pornai - the lowliest and cheapest of sex workers. If they wanted to have sex with someone attractive it had to be either on the lam or with each other. While there are many celebrated myths and actualy instances of older men engaged in what we would think of as "homosexuality" (between adults: Achilles and Patroklos, the Theban Band, Apollo and Huakinthos, to name a few) the evidence suggests that men were expected to "go straight" (again, an anachronism) once they were married - unless it involved sex workers.
Further, while pederasty appears to have been common among western Greeks, it never really caught on among the Ionian (eastern) Greeks, though if memory serves some evidence suggests the aristocratic Persians practiced it. A suggestion that has been made in the literature is that the Indo-European Dorians brought it with them when they invaded the Peloponessos in the pre-classical Dark Ages. Since the Persians were also Indo-European this would explain why they practiced it too. The Dorians, it is hypothesized, took the Greek mainland and pushed the pre-classical Greeks to the east.
Further, anal penetration was excedingly rare. Men usually fucked each others' closed legs - between the thighs or "intercutially" (which Abraham Lincoln is rumoured to have preferred) - all lubed up with olive oil.
Basically, between 12 and 30 the only access to women classical Greek men had were pornai - the lowliest and cheapest of sex workers. If they wanted to have sex with someone attractive it had to be either on the lam or with each other. While there are many celebrated myths and actualy instances of older men engaged in what we would think of as "homosexuality" (between adults: Achilles and Patroklos, the Theban Band, Apollo and Huakinthos, to name a few) the evidence suggests that men were expected to "go straight" (again, an anachronism) once they were married - unless it involved sex workers.
Further, while pederasty appears to have been common among western Greeks, it never really caught on among the Ionian (eastern) Greeks, though if memory serves some evidence suggests the aristocratic Persians practiced it. A suggestion that has been made in the literature is that the Indo-European Dorians brought it with them when they invaded the Peloponessos in the pre-classical Dark Ages. Since the Persians were also Indo-European this would explain why they practiced it too. The Dorians, it is hypothesized, took the Greek mainland and pushed the pre-classical Greeks to the east.
D_Gunther Snotpole
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I am a Greek-American guy with strong connections to Greece and my Greek-heritage. While the "tradition" to which you refer had its place among the noble classes of Greece in antiquity (and notably Athens circa 500 B.C.), and to an extent during the Alexandrian period, I can assure you that nothing so formalized exists in the Greece of today- or the past 2,000 years. One-thousand years of conservative Orthodox Christianity during the Byzantine Empire (353-1453) largely did away with that, and of course during the following 400 years, during the Ottoman Empire (1453-1821), Greeks as a nation, Greek as a language in general were even further repressed- let alone the lofty idealistic masculine ties to which you refer: Greeks were lucky to stay alive, and live as serfs. With the re-birth of Greece as a nation in the late 1820s, Greece adopted most of the norms of the rest of Europe- while still holding on to some of the Turko-Asiatic traditions of the Ottoman period. The "development" of boys via older males via erotic channels was not something terribly acceptable in either sphere of influence.
Modern Greek history (up until the mid-1970s) has been quite turbulent, marked by many wars, periods of great poverty, emigration, betrayal by its allies, threats from its neighbors, etc. It has been a hard road, and as a result, for much of its modern history, Greeks had become somewhat "hardened." That being said, a certain machismo developed within the society, where the (strong) male was celebrated in general, but this was usually in an ultra-heterosexual context, with perhaps some strong homoerotic undertones. While friendships among men were/are perhaps more intimate and affectionate than in many other western European and North American societies, active engagement in homosexual relationships was greatly discouraged. Let's not forget also that it became- once again after its liberation in the 1820s- an orthodox Christian state.
Of course, even in the heyday of the macho Greek male- in the fifties, sixties, and seventies- the most macho Greek male, when asked, might refer back to the homoerotic relationships of antiquity with a vague admiration, with a certain sense of societal nostalgia; with a twinkle in the eye almost. Not in a perverted way; more as if to say "not right for me.....but, our ancient ancestors may have been on to something." Greeks in general are proud of their history, and put much faith in the (greater) knowledge that they perceive their ancient predecessors to have posessed. Of course, many of these "macho Greek males" could and would engage in clandestine one-off homosexual encounters, but they would never in a million years identify with being "gay," nor would they see themselves as being "mentors" to their male sex-partners in any way.
Greece since the seventies has progressed economically, politically and socially by leaps and bounds. The standard of living and way of life is indistinguishable in most aspects from that in the rest of Europe and the U.S. In many ways, it is now more progressive than the US -especially with regard to women's rights, and the assertion of women as a group in general: everyone now talks about how Greek women have "come alive" in the last few decades. Modern "gay" culture has also become accepted for the most part, especially in the larger cities and in places like Mykonos. But still, that is something quite different and apart from the "Greek Tradition" to which you refer. On the other hand, there has been relative peace and prosperity, and so society has "softened" in many ways. The hard, macho Greek male is slowly becoming a thing of the past as well.
Modern Greek history (up until the mid-1970s) has been quite turbulent, marked by many wars, periods of great poverty, emigration, betrayal by its allies, threats from its neighbors, etc. It has been a hard road, and as a result, for much of its modern history, Greeks had become somewhat "hardened." That being said, a certain machismo developed within the society, where the (strong) male was celebrated in general, but this was usually in an ultra-heterosexual context, with perhaps some strong homoerotic undertones. While friendships among men were/are perhaps more intimate and affectionate than in many other western European and North American societies, active engagement in homosexual relationships was greatly discouraged. Let's not forget also that it became- once again after its liberation in the 1820s- an orthodox Christian state.
Of course, even in the heyday of the macho Greek male- in the fifties, sixties, and seventies- the most macho Greek male, when asked, might refer back to the homoerotic relationships of antiquity with a vague admiration, with a certain sense of societal nostalgia; with a twinkle in the eye almost. Not in a perverted way; more as if to say "not right for me.....but, our ancient ancestors may have been on to something." Greeks in general are proud of their history, and put much faith in the (greater) knowledge that they perceive their ancient predecessors to have posessed. Of course, many of these "macho Greek males" could and would engage in clandestine one-off homosexual encounters, but they would never in a million years identify with being "gay," nor would they see themselves as being "mentors" to their male sex-partners in any way.
Greece since the seventies has progressed economically, politically and socially by leaps and bounds. The standard of living and way of life is indistinguishable in most aspects from that in the rest of Europe and the U.S. In many ways, it is now more progressive than the US -especially with regard to women's rights, and the assertion of women as a group in general: everyone now talks about how Greek women have "come alive" in the last few decades. Modern "gay" culture has also become accepted for the most part, especially in the larger cities and in places like Mykonos. But still, that is something quite different and apart from the "Greek Tradition" to which you refer. On the other hand, there has been relative peace and prosperity, and so society has "softened" in many ways. The hard, macho Greek male is slowly becoming a thing of the past as well.
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almost_4_inches YOU'VE touched a very important point, the cultural heritage that still remains. although not european, I was educated in southern europe, and the affection between men is a normal, daily thing.
kissing a men in public isn't nothing to have worries about. OK, admitting to have had sex with one IS, very much, a taboo. the 'machismo' still rules, and not like italians, wearing glamy, sparkly jewels is frown upon.
EVEN so it's interesting to see up to what point did our heritage left undeletable marks in our culture and ways of behaving.
kissing a men in public isn't nothing to have worries about. OK, admitting to have had sex with one IS, very much, a taboo. the 'machismo' still rules, and not like italians, wearing glamy, sparkly jewels is frown upon.
EVEN so it's interesting to see up to what point did our heritage left undeletable marks in our culture and ways of behaving.
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