Grenfell tower

[Jason]

@dandelion, people blame politicians for the weather.

 

[185248]

nothing to do with the topic but liktly to stimulate thought/amalysis/negativity

assocuation,and thinking outside the square that we are not supposed/encouraged to enterrtain according to some
we havent overly progressed sincethe Roman days,when STUPID HUMAN errors are made like Grenfell, in 2017

Why modern mortar crumbles, but Roman concrete lasts millennia

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/07/why-modern-mortar-crumbles-roman-concrete-lasts-millennia

Hey rb...my mortar does not crumble.....only guys who use Waverly cement in their mix does......the wave the bag past the mixer.

 

[rbkwp]

smile
patent sell it v sounds brilliant

met a young Tradie Brickie Brit hitching NZ earrly 80s
trained by his Tradie Brickie father
he had that beautiful Northern uneducated sounding British accent
he layed/bricked my courtyard in Parnell, a most exclusive suburb in Ak
still standing to this day,fresh as the day he made it/we sourced ye ole fire bricks
no 'permit' requied those days
days that were turmoil free/no thought of WW3 those days even

Hey rb...my mortar does not crumble.....only guys who use Waverly cement in their mix does...

btw
throwing in hints of the British class system there
bc i think its a possibility re Grenfell
the toffee nosed honchos vs the commoner
maybe/if they rebuild,wont be a tower block for commoners that will be placed there

 

[185248]

smile
patent sell it v sounds brilliant

met a young Tradie Brickie Brit hitching NZ earrly 80s
trained by his Tradie Brickie father
he had that beautiful Northern uneducated sounding British accent
he layed/bricked my courtyard in Parnell, a most exclusive suburb in Ak
still standing to this day,fresh as the day he made it/we sourced ye ole fire bricks
no 'permit' requied those days
days that were turmoil free/no thought of WW3 those days even

Hey rb...my mortar does not crumble.....only guys who use Waverly cement in their mix does...

btw
throwing in hints of the British class system there
bc i think its a possibility re Grenfell
the toffee nosed honchos vs the commoner
maybe/if they rebuild,wont be a tower block for commoners that will be placed there

Am a lic builder now, but one thing I enjoy is to drive past a job, brickwork I did 40 years ago and it still looks as good as the day when I laid the first brick.

I suppose when dealing with rock, clay and mortar is the pride attached. To know if you do a good job, it will be there for many generations. I don't think my work will see the thousands of years as some of the architecture does because of modern day expansion. But to know and be a part of a fraternity that has not changed much in 1000's of years, nor the tools or materials, can't but help feel a little bit of pride well up

I learned my trade through Italians, and they are some of the best tradies out.

Have built a few cavity brick homes (double brick) for myself and family through the years...I am living in one now which I helped build 38 years ago...It still looks great, and have just set a fire in the fire place I built at that time.

 

[rbkwp]

can only imagine the deserved pride
when people earnt there living
heard that re the Italian craftsmen of old
must be a truth,i was the proud owner of a Benelli 650 ha,reminisce'
keep that homefire burning,be over in 3 hours or so ha

Am a lic builder now, but one thing I enjoy is to drive past a job, brickwork I did 40 years ago

edit

I learned my trade through Italians, and they are some of the best tradies out.

 

[185248]

for fellow tradies

can only imagine the deserved pride
when people earnt there living
heard that re the Italian craftsmen of old
must be a truth,i was the proud owner of a Benelli 650 ha,reminisce'
keep that homefire burning,be over in 3 hours or so ha

Am a lic builder now, but one thing I enjoy is to drive past a job, brickwork I did 40 years ago

edit

I learned my trade through Italians, and they are some of the best tradies out.

I suppose also I respect my trade when working on or repairing buildings a few hundred years old. Touching or finding traces which previous tradies have left behind for fellow tradies in the future to find.

 

[dandelion]

Seems the fire experts have caught up with my earlier comments about insulation. It wasn't simply the cladding and if fireproof insulation had been used the fire might not have been nearly so bad. The insulation behind the cladding fed the fire and also produced poisonous cyanide gas.

 

[Jason]

Seems the fire experts have caught up with my earlier comments about insulation. It wasn't simply the cladding and if fireproof insulation had been used the fire might not have been nearly so bad. The insulation behind the cladding fed the fire and also produced poisonous cyanide gas.

Yes I think this is reasonably clear.

It's also clear from the head of the fire brigade that they had all the manpower and equipment they needed. The site is such that there was a limit to the number of people and equipment that could physically get access to the building. Presumably the Mayor of London and Corbyn will issue formal apologies for their idea that the deaths are attributable to an "underfunded" fire service.

Flats in Grenfell Tower that had sold in the private market were around £1,200,000. This is a super-luxury price. I suppose a commercial rent for flats such as these would have to be around £1,500pw. As far as I can make out almost all were local-authority owned, so the subsidy per flat per week was something in this order. Grenfell Tower was not on the face of it some example of poor housing but rather of housing way above that which most in the private sector can dream of. And the very expensive insulating job had been done without cost to most of the residents.

We all now know that the cladding was not right. However it seems that before the fire no-one new this. 600+ blocks were clad in it. It had the appropriate fire safety rating. The Mayor of London and Corbyn did not speak up BEFORE the event and say there was a problem. It's so easy to be wise after the event. Khan and Corbyn need to share the blame - they did absolutely nothing before the event to speak out. If they new something, why didn't they speak?

 

[dandelion]

Flats in Grenfell Tower that had sold in the private market were around £1,200,000.

Thats an odd statement Jason. I just checked some online valuation websits which record actual sale prices of homes across the UK. The land registry publishes this info. Rightmove has some sold in 2013 for £250,000. Mouseprice has flat 104 sold for £161,000 on 26 sep 2016.

Yes I think this is reasonably clear.

Its clear someone has not got their facts straight. Some of these websites value property according to the price of nearby homes of similar size. Thy are not very good at taking into account the actual differences between adjacent properties and tend to assume they are the same, which in many streest is a reasonable guess. But not if a Victorian private terrace is next to a council tower block.

It's also clear from the head of the fire brigade that they had all the manpower and equipment they needed.

It isnt to me. And their manpower includes backroom staff to investigate fire safety, not just the people who turn out in an emergency.

This is a super-luxury price. I suppose a commercial rent for flats such as these would have to be around £1,500pw. As far as I can make out almost all were local-authority owned, so the subsidy per flat per week was something in this order.

Not at all. My figures above suggest you are wrong as to their value, but if for arguments sake we assume this was the current valuation, so what? they cost a tiny fraction of that to build originally, and that was the cost to the taxpayer. The taxpayer has no doubt made a profit from the tower, or would have bar the fire. Maybe still has, after all the land is still publicly owned and will eventually be rebuilt on. The cost of new homes built there will be the cost of the bricks and work to construct them, not a massive inflated land cost. If the block is insured, they might get new homes for no cost to the taxpayer.

What you should have said jason is the staggering amount of public money which has been wasted by the conservative right to buy policy, which has given national assets away on a staggering scale.

We all now know that the cladding was not right. However it seems that before the fire no-one new this. 600+ blocks were clad in it.

Lots of people knew it. But they still chose cheaper systems of cladding. I wonder why.

It had the appropriate fire safety rating.

No, it didnt. It seems private fire safety inspectors have made some exceedingly dodgy justifications for classing it as safe. Newsnight just commented on one example where an aluminium system was certified as safe based upon fire tests on a ceramic system.

The Mayor of London and Corbyn did not speak up BEFORE the event and say there was a problem.

Boris Johnson you mean? At the last fire he promised steps would be taken to ensure it didnt happen again. That didnt work out well. Wonder what job they have given him now?

 

[Jason]

It isnt to me. And their manpower includes backroom staff to investigate fire safety, not just the people who turn out in an emergency.

So whom do I believe:
* The head of the fire brigade who has made a formal statement?
* Or Dandelion?

Momentum are busy with their theory that Conservatives eat children for breakfast and won't let the facts get in the way. When they are really going well they can misrepresent facts. For example every block of flats in the country has a surprising number that have sold for a tiny fraction of their market value, for all sorts of reasons, mostly dodgy. Yes you will be able to find examples in any block of some low priced.

@dandelion, I am heartily sick of your narrative that the Conservatives are somehow to blame for this tragedy. I know this is the narrative of your leader and of his lynch mob Momentum, but it is simply not true AND YOU KNOW IT. I am not prepared to enter into discussion with you on this, because you are putting forward a view you do not believe. It's just nasty. Your leader denies there is anti-Semitism in what is now the anti-Semitic party, which demonstrates his tenuous grasp of facts. You don't have to follow him. We've had Corbyn the supporter of terrorists, but now we have a new nasty in Corbyn who sees the Grenfell tragedy and can only think about how to make political gain from it. It is utterly nauseating.

 

[dandelion]

Momentum are busy with their theory that Conservatives eat children for breakfast

While I am aware that in both world wars propaganda like this was used to incite hatred of Germans, perhaps the reason conservative support is now falling is precisely because people today have a wider education, both specifically in terms of qualifications and generally in terms of being more travelled and exposed to many more kinds of information. Voters do not believe your smears and they probably already became counter productive because they discredit the conservative party for pushing them.

So whom do I believe:
* The head of the fire brigade who has made a formal statement?
* Or Dandelion?

Nigel farage was on the TV yesterday arguing that no leave campaigner had ever said there was any kind of Brexit except hard. He challeneged his opponents to give him concrete examples where they had. Yet I distinctly recall soft Breit was touted as an option. We debated its merits. As to firemen they did say publicly there was low water pressure and difficulty getting equipment to the site. Whether this lead to additional loss of life or added destruction I couldnt say. Given that they asked people to stay in the burning building and await rescue, it well might have.

For example every block of flats in the country has a surprising number that have sold for a tiny fraction of their market value, for all sorts of reasons, mostly dodgy.

I didnt ignore high prices. Thats what was listed. These published lists are usually quite reliable. If they are based on land registry figures that will be the actual sale price. If on estate agent offers for sale, they may overestimate prices because purshasers tend to negotiate down the price a property is advertised at.

Yes you will be able to find examples in any block of some low priced.

No doubt. But if you want to attack my argument based upon published facts, i suggest finding some facts of your own rather than stating a true but irrellevant observation. Did you get your numbers from a conservative press office briefing?

@dandelion, I am heartily sick of your narrative that the Conservatives are somehow to blame for this tragedy.

So am I. Doesnt change facts though. This fire happened because of incompetence. The building industry as a whole has cut corners on safety by using inflammable cladding on buildings. It is a classic mistake of the sort which always happens. People cut corners concerning high danger low probabilty events.

Chernobyl comes to mind, and for political balance five mile island. The UK winscale reactor fire was a little more forgiveable because it was an experimental setup, and people are less knowledgeable about risks in such a situation, whereas when a system is used commercially, it ought to have been thoroughly tested and the risks understood and avoided. To continue the nuclear analogy, the Japanese suffered a disaster at fukushima because when originally designed no one though of the risks of a tsunami. Yet in fact people had realised this risk between building and when the tsunami hit, probably because of experience with other tsunamis. There was even a plan to Tsunami proof the reactors, but the power company hadnt quite got round to doing something because it was expensive for such a trivial risk.

There was already a fire in 2009 and government ministers have been repeatedly asked to investigate fire safety because of it. They didnt. They chose to cut the corner of fire safety in order to save money, and the fire risk bit. Councils are legally obliged to go for low cost bids, and low cost always means using cheap materials. If the safety insepectorate has been corrupted by demands of private business to certify materials as safe which patently are not, then unsafe materials will be used, and it is the fault of government. The ethos of this government is to make government smaller and put private enterpise in charge. This is untenable in a modern society where the public demands respect for safety issues, and indeed for government to act to stop individuals being fleeced by private industry.

Conservative principles are at work here and led to this fire. It was a multiple failure caused by the drive for small government and privatisation.

I know this is the narrative of your leader

Really Jason, I am not a labour supporter. But as we do not live in a democracy where I can vote for someone I would like to be in government, I recommend everyone to vote Corbyn. Best chance we have to rescue something from the disaster that is brexit. You seem to be stuck with the tory tactic that if you cannot dispute his policy, you attack someone personally.

 

[chrisrobin]

Just take a step back and look at the support groups for Grenfell Tower.
A good hard look.
Justice for Grenfell - has links to the hard left Radical housing Network group. One coordinator lives 2 miles away in a £650,000 house, another in a flat in Ladbroke Grove, a mile away, valued at £700,00 while an activist for them lives 6 miles away in Tufnell Park. Other workers for the Justice for Grenfell addressed a Socialist Workers rally in July. No representatives of Grenfell Tower involved!
The Grenfell Action Group does have a blog written by a resident, but even he admits its mainly made up and written by the Radical Housing Network - so - truly a voice for the people!
At various meetings the real residents had vented their anger at other residents they accuse of not wanting to listen to council reprentatives but to accuse them of lies and plots.
Meanwhile there are many "help the residents" appeals, some without any connection to Grenfell while those that are "legal" don't seem to be co-ordinated as to how to disperse of the money raised - again the political aspect gets in the way.
Meanwhile the BBC is doing its best to help the socialist cause of injustice going by devoting several nights last week to the failings - all seen in hindsight - of various authorities and bodies. Not once in any interview was a "happy" resident shown but rather those who have an axe to grind and to show the government and local bodies is as bad a light as possible - acolytes of Momentum?
There are groups who are doing their best to balance these extreme views, the Lancaster West Residents Association and the Silchester Residents Association, and others all of whom want to see the enquiry get going as soon as possible.
While there are groups associated with this disaster who are shown and known to be of political differences to the authorities, who's aim is to thwart and delay as much as possible, to cause embarrassment and dismay to the real victims then the truth will be delayed from coming out and those who have really suffered, not the Corbyns, McDonalds and Lammys of this world, but real people - till the enquiry starts and ends there will be no justice - the delays being forced by this political intrusion will only extend the person agony for many.

 

[Jason]

Labour's Momentum Marxists are seeing Grenfell as the best thing that could possibly have happened for them as it gives them a way of advancing their view that Theresa May eats babies for breakfast. It is an utterly vile campaign by an utterly vile group. They have no interest whatsoever in what is good for the Grenfell victims or for the people of this country.

I think we have to wait until the media cycle changes, until the media start reporting Labour's willingness to exploit suffering. The biggest single problem is of course the BBC, which is no longer a balanced organisation. I don't know what a hung parliament can reasonably achieve. We need an end to the license fee. We need public sector broadcasting to be paid for by central government, but put out to any operator who is able to run with it. I understand we are very soon getting release of BBC (and other) salaries. Good. Maybe this will be the first step in getting the BBC albatross taken away from the necks of taxpayers.

Things have their day. Trump has called out the BBC as "fake news". It is a politically biased left-wing pro-EU organisation, and it costs every UK household £145 a year. I would love to be able to stop paying £145 and stop receiving the BBC.

 

[rbkwp]

no reason not to keep the important issues alive

The Voices of Grenfell

In this moving poem by Trevor Hensley, we hear the voices of ordinary people express the tragedy that is the Grenfell Tower Block Fire. Verse Films

http://therealnews.com/t2/story:19626:The-Voices-of-Grenfell

 

[jacenx]

I have a clear memory of the fire at the 12th floor of the Aon Center at 707 wilshire blvd, LA in 1988.
What intriguing me is that fire burned for 4 hours without collapsing, and the Grenfell burned like hell.

 

[Jason]

I have a clear memory of the fire at the 12th floor of the Aon Center at 707 wilshire blvd, LA in 1988.
What intriguing me is that fire burned for 4 hours without collapsing, and the Grenfell burned like hell.

There was no collapse at Grenfell - indeed the building is still standing and the structure is pretty robust. While the various inquiries haven't yet formally reported, I don't think there's any reasonable doubt that the fire was spread by the cladding - in effect once it caught fire it did burn, and gaps between the cladding and the exterior walls acted as a chimney spreading the fire. The same or similar cladding has been used on 600+ towers, most of them residential, and is now being taken off them very quickly indeed (I think most or even all have now had this done.)

After the event we all know that the cladding was faulty, but I don't think this present knowledge can be projected back in time. There wasn't a lobby of people saying "don't use it". There certainly were lobbies saying "clad our tower". It was seen as a good thing because it improved insulation in buildings like Grenfell which had pretty poor insulation. It also made them look better. This was a secondary issue, but it was seen as part of improving the living environment for people in the block and in the vicinity. There was talk after the fire that a more expensive cladding might have been less flammable. However tests on this have shown minimal difference. I think the problem is with any cladding.

With the benefit of hindsight we should probably have looked at demolition rather than upgrade. Presumably this logic goes for the 600+ residential towers which have been clad. With the insulation taken off we are back to towers with very poor insulation, ie to cold flats. Some also have water penetration problems, ie damp.

The UK has quite a challenge. Towers typically accommodate 70-120 families, so we're looking at new homes for 60,000 families, say 150,000 people. I suspect in the short run we will have no choice but continuing with existing towers, accepting the poor insulation. Possibly local authorities can make some sort of heating allowance.

 

[185248]

There was no collapse at Grenfell - indeed the building is still standing and the structure is pretty robust. While the various inquiries haven't yet formally reported, I don't think there's any reasonable doubt that the fire was spread by the cladding - in effect once it caught fire it did burn, and gaps between the cladding and the exterior walls acted as a chimney spreading the fire. The same or similar cladding has been used on 600+ towers, most of them residential, and is now being taken off them very quickly indeed (I think most or even all have now had this done.)

After the event we all know that the cladding was faulty, but I don't think this present knowledge can be projected back in time. There wasn't a lobby of people saying "don't use it". There certainly were lobbies saying "clad our tower". It was seen as a good thing because it improved insulation in buildings like Grenfell which had pretty poor insulation. It also made them look better. This was a secondary issue, but it was seen as part of improving the living environment for people in the block and in the vicinity. There was talk after the fire that a more expensive cladding might have been less flammable. However tests on this have shown minimal difference. I think the problem is with any cladding.

With the benefit of hindsight we should probably have looked at demolition rather than upgrade. Presumably this logic goes for the 600+ residential towers which have been clad. With the insulation taken off we are back to towers with very poor insulation, ie to cold flats. Some also have water penetration problems, ie damp.

The UK has quite a challenge. Towers typically accommodate 70-120 families, so we're looking at new homes for 60,000 families, say 150,000 people. I suspect in the short run we will have no choice but continuing with existing towers, accepting the poor insulation. Possibly local authorities can make some sort of heating allowance.

I'm sure Buckingham can accommodate a few families , now that most of the kids there have grown up and moved out. No cladding, insulation, damp or heating issues there. The tenants and corgis would complain most noisily, eh what?

 

[chrisrobin]

I'm sure Buckingham can accommodate a few families , now that most of the kids there have grown up and moved out. No cladding, insulation, damp or heating issues there. The tenants and corgis would complain most noisily, eh what?

I would suggest shipping them all to Queensland...

 

[185248]

I would suggest shipping them all to Queensland...

Well, that's what you guys did once upon a time wasn't it....?

Thanks to those Britain sent here, mostly convicts for stealing a loaf of bread, trespassing on a Lords ground, those who were very poor, in the short 237 years we have done pretty well don't you think?

I suppose it shows that if you give someone, or most who are not privileged to be born into wealth, half a chance to build a future, they will grab a hold of it and run with it.

Now we find it difficult to hold onto our well trained Paramedics because you guys are offering so much money to them for not having your own? Don't know why that is.....

 

[jacenx]

I suppose it shows that if you give someone, or most who are not privileged to be born into wealth, half a chance to build a future, they will grab a hold of it and run with it.

It depends on how you view it. There are things worse than others. I'm sure Buckingham should have everyday jobs like everyone else, not sucking the money from the taxpayers. Buckingham struts around the planet and do nothing to build a future.