Grenfell tower

TurkeyWithaSunburn

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Grenfell Tower: cladding material linked to fire pulled from sale worldwide
The company that manufactures an element of the cladding believed to have contributed to the rapid spread of fire through Grenfell Tower has pulled the material from sale around the world.

Arconic said on Monday that is was discontinuing Reynobond PE, panels that are combined with insulation to form cladding that was revealed as flammable in the wake of the blaze that killed at least 79 people in west London.

The firm said it had stopped global sales of the material for tall buildings over concerns about the “inconsistency of building codes across the world”. Reynobond PE, one of several options offered by the company and not the most fire-retardant, has been banned for use on towers in countries including Germany and the US, but not the UK.

I read elsewhere that it wasn't recommended on anything taller than 32 feet and now they are withdrawing it from sale worldwide. If the manufacturer sells directly to the building industry, do you think if a massive order came in they would ask questions about how it's going to be used?
 
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rbkwp

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always appreciate those from other countries bothering to let us know whats happening elsewhere
this article, even if from an English newspaper is what the world also needs to know
how else are we to be informed?
thanks


NewGrenfell Tower: cladding material linked to fire pulled from sale worldwide

The firm said it had stopped global sales of the material for tall buildings over concerns about the “inconsistency of building codes across the world”.
 

rbkwp

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true

been following it more than BREXIT
and the initial crys from the residents complaining endlessly to the cladding people and whomever, about the dangers of standing outside having a cigarette and the F'n cladding caught on fire
months before it happened, and the a'holes did nothing
rings in the mind


It should never have been specified RB, and that isn't the fault of the manufacturer.
 

chrisrobin

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er, no. As far as I can see there have been no changes to the buildings regs, so if they dont meet them now, they didnt when they were installed.
Its always rewarding to get your answers when you say nothing new but repeat old platitudes and recycled information which is the only way you can avoid facing up to any truthful analysis of what really happened, and why and when the root causes began...
Of course come the revolution.... and there will be a brave new world of Corbynistas, McDonald will be in his element and Momentum the word and power on the streets...god help us!
 

dandelion

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Its always rewarding to get your answers when you say nothing new but repeat old platitudes
That the building regulations have not changed? They havnt changed. Someone fiddled the acceptance of materials which should not have been used.

In reality, what probably happened is that someone decided the cladding would probably be ok. After all, who sets fire to the outside of buildings? But we already had some fires where cladding was implicated, in particular in 2009. They were relatively lucky that time, but rports were written warning that something needs to be done. The 'something' failed to be done during the period of this current conservative administration. Not because they like burning people alive, but because of cuts. Someone would have had to sit down and do the work. More research and testing on panels for starters. Just what is happening now, buildings needing emergancy work. All very expensive. So they didnt.
 

chrisrobin

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That the building regulations have not changed? They havnt changed. Someone fiddled the acceptance of materials which should not have been used.

In reality, what probably happened is that someone decided the cladding would probably be ok. After all, who sets fire to the outside of buildings? But we already had some fires where cladding was implicated, in particular in 2009. They were relatively lucky that time, but rports were written warning that something needs to be done. The 'something' failed to be done during the period of this current conservative administration. Not because they like burning people alive, but because of cuts. Someone would have had to sit down and do the work. More research and testing on panels for starters. Just what is happening now, buildings needing emergancy work. All very expensive. So they didnt.
Ha, of course, the Corbyn line - cuts - but where's the proof, its all in the mind, semantics, but that's fine for the rabble rousers of the Corbyn/McDonald rent crowd can use it to spread falsehoods...
 

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Ha, of course, the Corbyn line - cuts - but where's the proof
I was recently looking into planning permission. Apparently local councils are now in the habit of automatically refusing planning permissions because they do not have staff to process them. But they offer people the option to withdraw them, and then discuss them with the council when officers become available, and then reintroduce the application to be properly dealt with when staff and time permit. No staff you see, cuts.
 

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I was recently looking into planning permission. Apparently local councils are now in the habit of automatically refusing planning permissions because they do not have staff to process them. But they offer people the option to withdraw them, and then discuss them with the council when officers become available, and then reintroduce the application to be properly dealt with when staff and time permit. No staff you see, cuts.

Staff numbers in council planning offices are a matter for each individual council. Every private business in the UK has over the last few decades cut staff while increasing quality. Councils must solve their problems.
 

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I was recently looking into planning permission. Apparently local councils are now in the habit of automatically refusing planning permissions because they do not have staff to process them. But they offer people the option to withdraw them, and then discuss them with the council when officers become available, and then reintroduce the application to be properly dealt with when staff and time permit. No staff you see, cuts.

Council planning departments are or should be self funding so if they have not got enough staff it is because they are poorly run locally.
 

dandelion

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Staff numbers in council planning offices are a matter for each individual council. Every private business in the UK has over the last few decades cut staff while increasing quality. Councils must solve their problems.
perhaps the difference lies in the nature of the job being done. You cannot mechanise social care, and clearing road drains or potholes doesnt lend itself well either. The partial solution has been to hire cheap foreigners.
 

Jason

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perhaps the difference lies in the nature of the job being done. You cannot mechanise social care, and clearing road drains or potholes doesnt lend itself well either. The partial solution has been to hire cheap foreigners.

Neither of these relate to planning offices. Councils charge fees for consideration of planning applications. They should be making some sort of profit.

One of the issues with UK housing is that planning is often absurdly slow. We need homes. Developers want to build. Council planning offices can take years to get to a decision.
 
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There are lessons to be learned, and its not easy to admit for local authorities or even governments.
Since the introduction of high rise accommodation regulations have changed, materials have changed and expectations changed.
So Blocks built and designed in 1970's would have one set of criteria which at the time was deemed correct. However since then testing has got better, materials have changed and cosmetic alterations taken place which have moved faster than the regulations and testing regimes.
The easy thing to make political capital is to blame the party currently in charge when in fact if there is to be a blame then its should be spread over many years of accumulated regulation changes which have not always been applied.
Scare mongering is always a good way of getting attention especially to false information, once the idea is out there it ferments and festers and becomes an urban truth. David Lammy with his story about more deaths than reported actually came from non residents talking to residents (could this be the same rent a mob for McDonald?), I could also mention there was a party with over 40 people in one of the flats where candles were used, or so I was told by a friend who got it from someone who knew someone who was there! Corbyn blames the lack of checks on the government cuts to the fire serve when in fact it was Labour who changed the regulations so they could be carried out by "responsible people" - there was not necessity to have a fire service certificate. So in one fell swoop councils were responsible for checking their own safety as gust houses and hotels were placed in charge of ensuring they met with perceived safety regulations and also fails to recognise that Labour where responsible for the building of many of these high rise apartment blocks..
Actually if anything Grenfell Tower has shown that the regulations have become an dreadful tangle This should be a wake up call and any cross party wrangling should stop, concentrating instead on making safe that which has become less protected, looking after those who have been made homeless.

Perhaps I have not been clear. Being in the construction game and a licenced builder with a bricklaying trade background, I have new material sent to me all the time regarding changes in construction and fire related materials.

Once upon a time, fire walls were either constructed from concrete or brick. Now with the advent of modern fire rated materials, more timber is used in apartment block construction.

I'll cut is short, the new so called fire rated material is only as good as it's installation and what it is fixed to. Call me old fashioned, biased whatever. But I have seen enough of what others do in my life time not to trust either of the latter.

I myself recently just sold a home which I added a 2 bed annexed unit too. Yes, it would have been cheaper for me to use the modern fire rated system between. But after looking at it, investigating it and the so called "laboratory testing". Knowing that collapsing and burning material can break through what I would call it, "flimsy" fire wall construction.

Call me old fashioned, and sceptical again I went with ye old brick. Because I like to sleep at night.

This is a new 6 storey apartment block which was under construction. Would you move into and live on top of a stack of firewood? I had the timber industry all the time try to push me into using more timber in unit construction....I sent them not this vid, but that of another set of timber units under construction going up in seconds and a worker waiting to be rescued. I never heard from them again.http://abc7ny.com/news/monstrous-fire-engulfs-building-in-downtown-raleigh/1805101/

I'm not being alarmist, but the building industry is also susceptible to keeping costs down. Causing a flood of new "fire rated products" to be used, which really yet, have not had the test of time. My kind of testing.
 
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dandelion

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Neither of these relate to planning offices. Councils charge fees for consideration of planning applications. They should be making some sort of profit.
.
But they are probably spending it on social care because those people are more urgently in need.

Yesterday's council meeting ended in chaos and councillors refused to continue to discuss the matter in public. They claimed 'it might prejudice the enquiry'. Dont see how, could only mean more facts come into the public domain. Seems kensington chose the cladding they did rather than an alternative based on zinc, which the news suggest was more fireproof, saving £300,000.

I seem to remember Kensington council were the people who knocked down their old town hall just days before it was due to become a listed building. Stod there as a pile of rubble for years afterwards.
 

chrisrobin

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Staff numbers in council planning offices are a matter for each individual council. Every private business in the UK has over the last few decades cut staff while increasing quality. Councils must solve their problems.
Council productivity has moved on as science and innovation come into being, gone are the days of quill pens that Dandelion seeks to go back to, his mod would probably have banned the wheel as being satanic!
 
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The building was designed and constructed, probably along with the others in late 60's early 70's. I can't seem to find if there have been any fires reported in the time to this day. There probably have been in 45 or more years with the amount of apartments, but my search can't seem to come up with any.

It was a "modern" day material which has caused this disaster, it's supply and installation and failure to adhere to "manufacturers"instruction. Not the construction of the building itself in the seventies.

Many of the buildings constructed in that time...and I started my apprenticeship in 1974, where constructed of far better fire rated materials than I see on the market now.

And I will say again, the Fireies would be absolutely gutted and heartbroken to think they may have missed something which their training has taught them to look for. The unexpected.
 
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dandelion

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Council productivity has moved on as science and innovation come into being!
Ah but there has also been much instruction creep. Councils actively control much more than they used to. Whereas once they might not have cared about your garden shed, now they are much more likely to get actively involved. perhaps becaues garden sheds these days tend to be house sized. Didn't cameron just build one?
 

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But they are probably spending it on social care because those people are more urgently in need.

You are showing the socialist's fundamental failure to understand profit. Every planning application yields a profit which is more money for other things, including social care.
 
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You are showing the socialist's fundamental failure to understand profit. Every planning application yields a profit which is more money for other things, including social care.
Does not matter which government is in control. At the end of the day multiple governments over many years fail to address issues which have only been further compounded by lack of employment choice.

What democratic governments face these days is they are expected to pull money out of their arses to pay for an ever increasing population. A population that has less resources and job capability to pay for.

So governments go into debt to pay for infrastructure with not much hope of paying for it. This is the dilemma of all western nations.
 
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