Guitar players?

Qua

Legendary Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2007
Posts
1,604
Media
63
Likes
1,268
Points
583
Location
Boston (Massachusetts, United States)
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
Qua?, Squier Strats are popular by professional players. The thin wood they use for the neck creates a "tinnier" sound than a standard American Stratocaster would make.

Jeff Healey is a blind guitarist who uses Squier. They simply put very expensive pickups in there. Listening to Jeff Healey then switching to SRV is night and day. I think you guys listen to too many shredders.

Yes, I don't like many blues players very much beyond their granted skills of expression, and I've already outlined why. Their music simply doesn't do it for me musically. Zakk Wylde also does nothing for me, because he simply shreds on the same pentatonics and blues scales. Note that it's called music, not musical expression. Most "soul" in playing is varying pitch inaccuracy, hence a human voice sounds soulful and a player who uses wide vibrato and bends is more soulful than a shredder. Pianos are never fully in tune, and neither are 12 string guitars, which gives them their signature sound.

I'm not a big Vai fan, just wanted to use that one as an example.

It is true that when using lots of gain, the tone of the guitar itself becomes far less important, so I can see how you'd come to that misguided conclusion about my tastes. I myself use a $500 PRS singlecut that has a funamentally purer jazzier clean tone than every LP I've tried. The fact that most of us are trying to point out is vintage gear is pricey and sought after simply because it's ballyhooed. Hotrocker's claim of getting his Ibanez or Jackson to sound indistinguishable from an old LP is a little tough because of different scale lengths (which you called radii) wood combos etc, but I know I could get my cheap PRS and Fender Blues Jr pretty damn close, as I've played 70s LPs through the same rig and actually preferred the PRS.

I will also say that yes, my strat is new, however I went and tried EVERY SINGLE strat in the store before coming back to it. Strats are famous for their individual variation, and before you go blanketing SRV's guitar as good because it's vintage, maybe you'll take note of that. Believe me when I tell you I pay the dearest attention to every component, knob and gain stage of my rig, and I've realized that much of the mojo pieces are people listening for something they want to believe is important. I'm not disputing the performance of tube amps vs solid state, or high quality woods vs low quality, simply vintage vs modern gear with no other variables taken into account.
 

Skull Mason

Expert Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2006
Posts
3,035
Media
6
Likes
110
Points
193
Location
Dirty Jersey
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
The fact that most of us are trying to point out is vintage gear is pricey and sought after simply because it's ballyhoed. Hotrocker's claim of getting his Ibanez or Jackson to sound indistinguishable from an old LP is a little tough because of different scale lengths (which you called radii) wood combos etc, but I know I could get my cheap PRS and Fender Blues Jr pretty damn close, as I've played 70s LPs through the same rig and actually preferred the PRS.

Agreed.
 
6

66057

Guest
I will also say that yes, my strat is new, however I went and tried EVERY SINGLE strat in the store before coming back to it. Strats are famous for their individual variation, and before you go blanketing SRV's guitar as good because it's vintage, maybe you'll take note of that. Believe me when I tell you I pay the dearest attention to every component, knob and gain stage of my rig, and I've realized that much of the mojo pieces are people listening for something they want to believe is important.
But you guys are answering your own questions. You just explained the variation in an individual Strat. That is true........but it's also the reason a '62 pre-CBS American Standard Stratocaster will sound better than a 2001 Squier Stratocaster or 2004 Ibanez JEM.

Besides, it sounds like pure denial or even envy. I've played hundreds of guitars. I've owned tons. Including Squier Strats and Ibanez guitars, Washburns, and PRS. Nothing comes close to my '70 Les Paul Custom. That's not an accident, that's not a mistake, that's not me being "delusional." You all are delusional for thinking that it makes no difference. Go to a guitar forum and try telling someone that your 2000 + Ibanez JEM is a more quality-made instrument than a '70 Gibson Les Paul Custom. The price alone for a new one these days is double that of a JEM, partly because of the wood alone, partly because of the circuit designs they have to mock when trying to recreate that tone. The Custom was $800 in the 70's. Mine has been appraised at over $5,000. You're telling me that the components my guitar is built with are easily accessible and copied?

The same thing goes for any American-built Standard Stratocaster before 1966. go do your research before you tell me your new 2008 Stratocaster is the same as a 1966.

This is lack of experience, and/or knowledge of guitar-construction history.
 
6

66057

Guest
Guess it would be too pompous of me to suggest a '72 Standard.

According to everyone else though, it doesn't matter. You can just grab one.
 

Qua

Legendary Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2007
Posts
1,604
Media
63
Likes
1,268
Points
583
Location
Boston (Massachusetts, United States)
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
Guess it would be too pompous of me to suggest a '72 Standard.

According to everyone else though, it doesn't matter. You can just grab one.

It'd probably be better than most in the store, simply because of its age, but NO WAY IN HELL is it worth the price markup (actually, looking at the price guide 3-5 grand seems quite reasonable--far more than most other years). However, I did try out all the vintage instruments before deciding on my strat. Individual in every way, independent of year or age was what I was going at. And no, no way in hel can you just grab one. I was more saying don't just generalize on age when looking at strats. Try them all, regardless of age model, etc.

Mine's an 05 American Deluxe V-neck, with Samarium Cobalt noiseless pickups. A very good pickup, and the bridge is tempered enough for distorted applications. I will say that the V-neck strats of this model sound vastly superior the the standard C-necked variants. However, out of those I've tried, the Eric Johnson signature seems to be the best of the current line. The ultimate fact is that vintage instruments aren't worth the money you pay for them in most cases. Sure, their sheer age as well as individual factors might lead them to be better than the best, most detailed current ones (IMO the Johnson strat if we're talking about Stratocasters) but the price markup is usually more than the actual sonic improvement. Myself, I'm leaning towards PRS guitars now, and my next will be a McCarty. More or less a perfect combination of Strat and LP features, and far better looking and feeling than either (IMO of course).
 
6

66057

Guest
I paid $750 for my '70 Les Paul. You paid much more for that 2005 Strat. the difference is, mine is worth it, because of irreplaceable specifications.

Your guitar is kind of like a box of Cheerios etc.etc. It's mass produced to net the most profit possible. The Stratocaster is the most known guitar shape in the history of electric axes, even though the Telecaster came first. They use the cheapest electronics, wood, and metal that they can get away with. Stratocasters are not hand-built like Les Pauls. Besides a few signature series Fenders, you aren't getting the love, care, and attention to detail that they gave in the '60's and '70's. A Les Paul's price in TODAY's economy is not worth the money.

I'll agree with you on that. Today you pay $3,899 for a Les Paul Custom. Inflation took it from $800 in the 70's. Yet, this is all relative. I think they're getting away with too much on that price, but you are lying to yourself and anyone you tell that a '70 Les Paul Custom bears little or no extra quality than a 2008 Les Paul Custom or a '64 American Standard Strat bears little or no extra quality than a 2008 Mexi-Standard.
 

circumstances

Just Browsing
Joined
Jul 23, 2005
Posts
265
Media
0
Likes
0
Points
161
Age
34
Location
South Florida
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
my main electric is the '94 PRS Custom 24. as i mentioned earlier, i have an '84 Jap Strat which i hand picked new after playing just about every strat in town (not just that store). it has been a solid axe for me for the past 24 years.

during the late 80's and 90's and early part of this decade there was a stigma regarding the 80's japanese strats (not made in america was probably the reason?).

at some point over the last ten years that has changed. there is demand for these early 80's japanese strats, and i have been offered more money than you'd think numerous times to sell mine.

i can see why the guitar is desirable (since i picked it, bought it, and have played it problem-free and with great results for nearly 25 years), but i have no idea what caused the change in opinion over time.

maybe the rest of the musician world caught on to what i already knew, but doubt it.
 
6

66057

Guest
Circumstances,

I own an 80's Jap Telecaster. It is quite a popular demand on ebay and in pawn shops.
 

Skull Mason

Expert Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2006
Posts
3,035
Media
6
Likes
110
Points
193
Location
Dirty Jersey
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
do fat strats still have the same clean tones as three single coils, or are you sacrificing versatility for those sparkling cleans of a traditional strat?
 

Hotrocker

Expert Member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Posts
836
Media
0
Likes
113
Points
238
Location
Anchorage (Alaska, United States)
Sexuality
No Response
Sorry dude. I'm never one to down on other guitar players, but I just can't take you seriously after saying that. I've been playing a long time, and I've played tons of different equipment.

If you'd ever felt a'70's Les Paul Custom, which by the way is $3,899 new in 2008 models, you'd take this claim back immediately. My "vintage" guitar that you say sounds no different from a Jackson is the complete opposite craftsmanship of what a Jackson is supposed to sound like.

My Custom is layered with two solid slabs of wood, mahogany and maple. I have '75 dimarzio super distortion and p-90 pickups in it. My ax employs actual ivory binding, which hasn't been in product manufacturing for decades. All tuning peg casing is solid gold plating, as is my fret inlays real mother of pearl.

All these aesthetics you take for granted actually add to my sound simply because I got the good stuff that came from a good year. My wood is heavier and warmer because it's simply more expensive wood and it's aged over the years and expanded.

Sorry, but your Jackson is laughable next to my ax. It's valued at $5,300, and that's with half the paint missing off of the back of my body. You are using cheap materials that are on the assembly line in Japan, China and Mexico. If you're lucky. You get worse wood, worse metal, and worse construction. This is why your guitar is cheaper. Humans hands barely touched it.

And no, I don't mistake Jacksons for Strats. I also think that when you tell someone John Petrucci has the best tone, you need a little more opinion than "recording out of 2x12" gives the best sound.

That makes no sense. Anyone who records on a 4x12" can split their head or just power one side of their amp to one side of the cabinet, thus only using 2 of the speakers. Besides, it still doesn't matter, because my amp gets louder than yours with 4x12"s, and when I record a track, I can have 4 mics on in different setup placements around my 4 speakers. This only affects my tone in a good way. You don't even really mention what kind of cabinets or speakers, as if you don't know or don't care. I could hand you a 2x12" line 6 tolex box with 2 Celestion gt-75s in it and it would sound like a piece of garbage next to my cab with 4 Celestion Vintage 30's. There are limitations to what you can do with little money and limited access to professional equipment. I hate to use my love and experience of guitar related shit as some kind of bragging rights, but I just don't agree with much of what you said. Sounds like you're just trying to convince me you kick ass and shred, rather than have a good knowledge of tone.

I think you're too caught up in your brand. I own a Les Paul Studio carved top... and I know its made out of mahogany. Thing is, so is my Ibanez S, and the only difference I notice is the sustain lasts longer on my Les Paul due to the through- body set neck. I think you've read a good deal about tone... but you're sounding too biased to know what you're talking about. Tone is very reproducible, but there are too many ignorant people about thinking that their "vintage Les Paul that cost me four grand" has this almost unreachable tone on a mythical level. I think thats horse shit. And thats also what I think of your closed minded babble, ampblaster. "I'm never one to down on other guitar players, but I just can't take you seriously after saying that." Isn't that downing on another player? That kinda like saying "Now I'm not prejudiced, but whats with all the niggers and their rap?" I think you should've spent your 15 or so years learning to communicate on a mature and respectable level. Music is unique to the individual, as are the theories on tone people have acquired over their respected years of practice. I have never heard a tone that seemed unreachable by using a lower model guitar such as a lower model Les Paul or a similar humbucking guitar. A guitar's tone is mostly in the neck, strings, fingers and electronics. Obviously, a guitar being a hollow- body will change the tone drastically, but on solid- bodied guitars, those aforementioned factors are the main reasons a tone is what it is. I think that if you think people can't get the tone they're looking for with lower end guitars, I think you should study your technique more and learn to make that tone using what you have. You yourself said tone is in the fingers.

And as for recording, what good is a half- stack or a full stack if you cant get its tone without cranking it a good bit up? You can get a better tone out of a modeling tube amp like a Mark IV or a Blue Angel (both Mesas) on a lower power setting than you would with a stack. Mic both your speakers with condenser mics on the smaller amp and thats all you'd need.

"I hate to use my love and experience of guitar related shit as some kind of bragging rights, but I just don't agree with much of what you said. Sounds like you're just trying to convince me you kick ass and shred, rather than have a good knowledge of tone."

Lol, you talk ALOT of shit. Do you really think that all of the great guitar players out there who play with Jackson, Ibanez, and Ernie Ball Music Mans play them for their "shitty tones?" No... they make those guitar sing beautifully. They wouldn't use them if they had a shitty tone. Get your head out of your ass. The guitars speak for themselves.
 

Skull Mason

Expert Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2006
Posts
3,035
Media
6
Likes
110
Points
193
Location
Dirty Jersey
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Like I said before, EVH's tone (to me), is the holy grail and he found it with a piece of shit guitar. I have played plenty of cheap (usually acoustic) guitars under 1,000 bucks that didn't sound too much different than a more expensive one with a big name on it. Sometimes people get blinded by the name.

Well said above, by the way, hotrocker.
 

Hotrocker

Expert Member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Posts
836
Media
0
Likes
113
Points
238
Location
Anchorage (Alaska, United States)
Sexuality
No Response
Like I said before, EVH's tone (to me), is the holy grail and he found it with a piece of shit guitar. I have played plenty of cheap (usually acoustic) guitars under 1,000 bucks that didn't sound too much different than a more expensive one with a big name on it. Sometimes people get blinded by the name.

Well said above, by the way, hotrocker.

Ah, EVH's "brown sound." That tone is one of the most sought after, legendary of tones... and he got it by using a shitty Charvel- Strat knockoff and customized it. He called it the "frankenstrat."

The following according to Wikipedia:

"The brown sound is a legendary electric guitar distortion tone that musicians try to emulate using various effects pedals, tube amplifiers and modeling amplifiers. The term was coined by guitarist Eddie Van Halen to describe the sound of Alex Van Halen's snare drum, which he then attempted to emulate with his 100-watt Marshall amplifier running at full volume. Eddie would use a variac (a device that controls voltage levels) and run it at about 90 volts AC to the power input of the Marshall amp (normally the amp would have 120 volts input in the US; although the older Marshalls like Eddie's were designed in Europe with a 110 volt input rating) this allowed Eddie to lower the voltage input to his Marshall while allowing him to turn the amplifier's volume knob up all the way, this saturated the output tubes, without distorting the preamp tubes, and lowered the stress on the amplifier. Eddie would also use a dummy load on the amp output instead of going right to the speakers, then he would add his effects pedals (Eddie found the effects performed better this way) and then run the effects into a power amp usually an H&H V800 MOS-FET, then to speakers. He would set his Marshall Amp output resistance at 8 ohms and the dummy load at 20 ohms lowering the stress on the Marshall amp (the Marshall amp basically became one powerful preamp). This all helped to create his brown sound in conjunction with the single PAF pick-up and a high resistance volume pot he installed, without a tone control. Of course this was mainly his recording set-up; Eddies live setup was a little different. More than the appropriate number of user-submitted product reviews at the well known musician review websites claim that product X can replicate the Brown Sound perfectly."
 

Skull Mason

Expert Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2006
Posts
3,035
Media
6
Likes
110
Points
193
Location
Dirty Jersey
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
He put together the frankenstrat himself. He went to a guitar warehouse and pulled out a neck and body (pieces of shit he has referred to them) from the bottom of a stack of wood, slapped em together, rewound a pickup to his liking, and made history. I think he said he made it for like 150 bucks or something.
 

Hotrocker

Expert Member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Posts
836
Media
0
Likes
113
Points
238
Location
Anchorage (Alaska, United States)
Sexuality
No Response
He put together the frankenstrat himself. He went to a guitar warehouse and pulled out a neck and body (pieces of shit he has referred to them) from the bottom of a stack of wood, slapped em together, rewound a pickup to his liking, and made history. I think he said he made it for like 150 bucks or something.

You got that right, brother. Van Halen was well ahead of his time... but that just means that Allan Holdsworth and DiMeola were that much more ahead of their time in the 60's and 70's.
 
6

66057

Guest
Hotrocker, I appreciate how time and time again you try to come up with a reason that my setup sounds bad, but you're just wrong. You sound like all the kids in my high school that used to get into pissy arguments with me because they knew I owned better stuff and used it better.

I guess you can private message me, and ask for some recordings. This is my job brother. I do this for a living. Music Mans? Jacksons? Those are jokes in my world. The EVH models are out of production because they're pieces of shit and no one wanted to buy them. Who of any consequences uses Jacksons?

Randy Rhoads? The fucker's dead, and his tone is actually CALLED one of the worst tones in the history of guitar. If you think I'm blowing smoke, just type that in on the net. It's like you don't know what bad tone is. I mean, you obviously don't. Why would you be saying stupid shit like this if you did?

Argue it up from here on out, but everytime I've come back to see your response, it's devoid of information, reason, and accuracy.

I want to make a deal though. PM me. Let's get on a guitar forum. If we make a thread and everyone agrees with you about your tone preferences, I will start another thread here saying how much of an asshole I was, and I'll insult my guitar overtly.

Vice versa if they call you a moron, which is what I'm counting on anyway. When I showed my friend your responses to my posts, he just laughed. Real musicians aren't going to let people who have been playing for 2 or 3 years explain how to reach good tone with a 50 watt solid-state combo amp and a flat-neck Ibanez. They don't know how.

And drop your amplifier argument. I honestly don't know what the hell you're talking about when you try to talk about amps. You're not making any sense telling me all this mindless gibberish about recording with "2x12", as if the number of speakers you have matters when sticking a microphone on it.
 
6

66057

Guest
On another note, your EVH history is also false.

The Frankenstrat was a Charvel body AND neck when first created. The 3 pickups were ripped out and he put a humbucker in the bridge. Of course it's going to sound different from a Stratocaster. Charvel makes these original models (NOT THE FRANKEN-REISSUE) for $1,300 retail. And he didn't finish the Franken for $150. The body alone had cost him $200. The neck was rumored to be a piece of leftover from his friend's custom shop, and was either given to him with a Charvel decal, or he put it on there himself with their approval.

And, Grand Master hotrocker, you also forgot to mention than when EVH was pushing his amps past their power voltage during shows, he regularly blew them up and melted his capacitors. That is when he, and Carlos Santana, came up with the idea for the rectified circuit board. EVH also turned his amplifiers up to 10, which drained his tubes considerably but added to their burst. Your little hero Steven Vai will normally only throw his amp on 2 or 3 and mic it out the PA. Not every shredder does or has to do what EVH did, and it's mostly because the guy was an idiot with electronics. He'd be the first to tell you that. He once ruined a Gibson ES-335 because he tried to scallop the fretboard and didn't know what he was doing. He also used to try to install Bigsby systems on his Les Pauls and would destroy the bow of the beck constantly. Yes, EVH did play Les Pauls, before I hear any retarded rebuttals to that. He never knew what he was doing. It was all trial and error. The amp mod was a mistake, partly because it didn't work correctly, partly because it was obvious what extra power would do when it couldn't be handled.

Scallop an ES-335? Come on, now.

He biased his amps later in life. The tone you want, was EL84 power tubes in his original "modified" Marshalls, with British ECC83 preamp tubes. (known as 12ax7 in US.) This is standard today. There IS no reaching EVH's tone anymore because we've all got it. His claim to fame is the rectifier, basically. These amps are all over the place, and I can't begin to guess why you think it's so hard to sound like him. He doesn't even play his old guitars anymore. He often uses Peavey Wolfgangs live, even still, when I saw him in concert 2 years ago. His new amplifier, the 5150 III is absolutely unrelated to any circuitry setup he's had before (note: 6V6 tubes are the new craze for him), and the result is just another mediocre-sounding rock tone from the 2000's.

So once again, whatever you're smoking that makes you think you can just go get all this shit that was in production in 1975-1978 when he was building it, pass me that shit. This is the same old boring shit I see in Guitar World. You guys need to go look up some new players. Either that or that dude that posted stuff about Kotzen and Howe needs to come back in this thread and drown you out.

Then again, what do I know right? This is only my occupation, and everything I say about it is "babble."