Gun control

balsary

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Yes i know about oklahoma... And as i said, to bann guns wouldnt safe all victims.
You cant prevent everything but if you can you should do it

And the way I see it, if you ban guns, the only thing you accomplish is that there are no legal guns. Criminals willing to use a gun to kill are certainly willing to own one illegally.

Another example: In prison, obviously inmates are not allowed to own or carry guns. It hasn't slowed the rate in which inmates kill each other. Here are a few examples of weapons made in prison, in Germany in fact.

15 deadly improvised prison weapons and tools

These are people with almost zero resources yet they are capable of constructing a double barrel shotgun. What do you think Americans not restricted by confinement could come up with? I personally have no doubt that I could build a working firearm capable of firing ten or more rounds semi-automatically. What could Timothy McVeigh have constructed had he the desire to use a gun instead of a bomb. We are a violent nation. I hate that fact as much as anyone, but taking guns away does nothing to take away the will to kill.
 

balsary

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own a sword... No problem. Every american can if he wants.


And cause your aware of the dog in the city you carry all the time a gun with you? - very plausible

If you are as often in the wilderness as it sounds you should know how to behave, that you wount get attacked...
And again its not very plausible that you will get attacked. Just a few animals would attack a human and they are quite rare

Farmers have livestock attacked by animals regularly. Shall they lie in wait with their sword ready to attack the next coyote or fox that takes away their livelihood?
 

citr

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own a sword... No problem. Every american can if he wants.


And cause your aware of the dog in the city you carry all the time a gun with you? - very plausible

If you are as often in the wilderness you should know how to behave, that you wount get attacked...
And again its not very plausible that you will get attacked. Just a few animals would attack a human and they are quite rare

Violence in general is not very plausible. Getting your computer hacked and your information stolen isn't very likely. It's still better to be prepared.

I don't think you even know what you're talking about regarding animals. "If you're often in the wilderness," lol. Just stop.
 

Perados

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Violence in general is not very plausible. Getting your computer hacked and your information stolen isn't very likely. It's still better to be prepared.

I don't think you even know what you're talking about regarding animals. "If you're often in the wilderness," lol. Just stop.
I already posted at the "etc" part, at the thread about the school attack.
I guess you would confirm my posts. The parents are to blame for the death of their kids. They didnt prepared them. Not a single childe carried a gun...
 

Perados

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Farmers have livestock attacked by animals regularly. Shall they lie in wait with their sword ready to attack the next coyote or fox that takes away their livelihood?
Use a fency, maybe even with electricity...
Get them in a building...
Or hundret years ago we used dogs...

Just to name three other options ;)
 

Remington

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1. To bann guns means to own them is illegal. The state would have to care and collect

2. They woul sell guns at the same place as marijuana, cause? - those who smoke also need guns?

1) A lot of states can barely afford to fix their own roads and fund public services, nevermind fund something like that. That's if you can get the LEOs to cooperate.

And you have the populace that aren't so ready to just turn in their guns and will fight to keep them, there are lots of people that truly live by the "from my cold, dead hands" mentality.

2) It's all the black market. Just because you might not be able to get weed & a firearm in the same place, doesn't mean you still won't be able to get one despite whatever laws are in place.

own a sword... No problem. Every american can if he wants.


And cause your aware of the dog in the city you carry all the time a gun with you? - very plausible

If you are as often in the wilderness you should know how to behave, that you wount get attacked...
And again its not very plausible that you will get attacked. Just a few animals would attack a human and they are quite rare

1) Just today over in China, some crazy fucker stabbed 22 people. Someone could easily do that or worse with a sword.

2) In my neck of the desert (which isn't by any means rural), we have problems with coyotes, stray (and often rabid) dogs, snakes, and wild & feral pigs. While the coyotes & snakes aren't "that" bad, the pigs & dogs are quite aggressive and will go after people. Often while they're getting in or out of their cars or heading inside their home or a business. And they aren't that rare, either.
 

citr

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I already posted at the "etc" part, at the thread about the school attack.
I guess you would confirm my posts. The parents are to blame for the death of their kids. They didnt prepared them. Not a single childe carried a gun...

And with this post you have jumped the shark. Have fun talking to yourself . . .
 

balsary

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1) A lot of states can barely afford to fix their own roads and fund public services, nevermind fund something like that. That's if you can get the LEOs to cooperate.

And you have the populace that aren't so ready to just turn in their guns and will fight to keep them, there are lots of people that truly live by the "from my cold, dead hands" mentality.

2) It's all the black market. Just because you might not be able to get weed & a firearm in the same place, doesn't mean you still won't be able to get one despite whatever laws are in place.



1) Just today over in China, some crazy fucker stabbed 22 people. Someone could easily do that or worse with a sword.

2) In my neck of the desert (which isn't by any means rural), we have problems with coyotes, stray (and often rabid) dogs, snakes, and wild & feral pigs. While the coyotes & snakes aren't "that" bad, the pigs & dogs are quite aggressive and will go after people. Often while they're getting in or out of their cars or heading inside their home or a business. And they aren't that rare, either.

Perhaps Perados would like to be the one to go door to door collecting everyone's guns. I know I damn sure would never take that job. I think he'd be lucky to make it to 10 doors in some parts of the country. He'd collect a few bullets anyway.
 

Remington

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Perhaps Perados would like to be the one to go door to door collecting everyone's guns. I know I damn sure would never take that job. I think he'd be lucky to make it to 10 doors in some parts of the country. He'd collect a few bullets anyway.

Most of the LEOs I know would never agree to doing that simply due to how suicidal trying to take peoples' guns would be.

If Perados or anyone else wants to attempt that, they're welcome to try. Although I would never recommend it.
 

Bardox

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While I consider myself a liberal, I agree with the OP. The ideas on Gun Control being to simply get rid of guns period is not only naive but just plain stupid. The Only thing Gun Control laws would do is hamper law abiding citizens. The criminals would get them one way or another. Cocaine is illegal, but people still get it.

Putting a leash on the general public won't do shit. The only kind of gun control legislation that might do any good is tight regulations on gun manufaturers and restrictions on who can buy/sell guns. Right now you can goto any "gun show" and buy a small arsenal from private sellers with no background check or ID. Cash is all you need. A schizophrenic with an federal agent stand right beside them could go to a gun show and buy an AR-15 and a thousand rounds of ammo from a private seller with no questions asked and the agent wouldn't be able to do a damn thing. That is legal... Feel safe yet?

Gun crimes and criminals with guns are just a symptom. You want to treat the cause you have to goto the source. A law that would hold gun manufacturers liable for injuries and lives lost due to their products (as it is with every other industry in the world) would be the only new law I can imagine that would have any real effect. And by liable I mean paying large sums of money to the state government that said gun crime was commited... heeey... that might just be what the states need to solve those funding issues. Give the states the money to hire in the public sector, fund contracts with the private sector for repairs to the infrastructure, and drive down gun crimes in the process. Wouldn't that be nice? :D
 

Penis Aficionado

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If the point of this discussion is how to prevent things like today's horrible school shooting, I think a better answer is to make schools the equivalent of courthouses, security-wise. Very limited number of entrances and exits. As soon as you walk in you go through a metal detector. Armed guards everywhere.

That would suck, but it would suck less than the state coming to "collect" people's guns. A lot of schools are like this anyway -- actually I'm surprised the one in Newtown wasn't, considering it's a very affluent area.
 
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798686

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Repost... (since it wasn't answered in the other thread).

Why wouldn't much harsher restrictions lower the chances of this kind of thing? Where there are less guns in circulation, there are less gun deaths. Last time I checked, US murder rate was 4x higher than the UK - whereas the gun death rate was something like 80x higher, so it obviously has a big impact.

Sure - it'd be extremely difficult, especially if the number of civilian hand guns is correct (88 per 100 people?). But it does seem time to try to tackle the issue seriously. Tighter age restrictions, limits on how many and types of gun you can own - also how and where you keep them, and what they're used for. Gradually taking them out of circulation (or cutting off supply over time) would mean, at the very least, there were less accidental gun deaths.

There's obviously the problem where you don't want an undefended public unprotected against gun-wielding crims - so the Police would need to be armed for the forseeable future (or permanently?). And the amount of guns in the criminal community would have to be tackled too - how? I dunno. But surely it's worth giving it a try, rather than seeing this kind of thing happen 3 times a year or more?

No, it probably wouldn't remove the risk of this sort of thing entirely - but you could probably make big inroads into the annual gun deaths figure - and save many many lives.

So how about it?
 

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Repost... (since it wasn't answered in the other thread).

Why wouldn't much harsher restrictions lower the chances of this kind of thing? Where there are less guns in circulation, there are less gun deaths. Last time I checked, US murder rate was 4x higher than the UK - whereas the gun death rate was something like 80x higher, so it obviously has a big impact.

Sure - it'd be extremely difficult, especially if the number of civilian hand guns is correct (88 per 100 people?). But it does seem time to try to tackle the issue seriously. Tighter age restrictions, limits on how many and types of gun you can own - also how and where you keep them, and what they're used for. Gradually taking them out of circulation (or cutting off supply over time) would mean, at the very least, there were less accidental gun deaths.

There's obviously the problem where you don't want an undefended public unprotected against gun-wielding crims - so the Police would need to be armed for the forseeable future (or permanently?). And the amount of guns in the criminal community would have to be tackled too - how? I dunno. But surely it's worth giving it a try, rather than seeing this kind of thing happen 3 times a year or more?

No, it probably wouldn't remove the risk of this sort of thing entirely - but you could probably make big inroads into the annual gun deaths figure - and save many many lives.

So how about it?

We've tried prohibition with alcohol and drugs. Sadly not only does it not work for us, but it caused many more problems. (I.E black markets & more crime)

To a few more points.

-Logistically speaking, the gov. wouldn't be able to afford rounding up all the firearms. They can't even handle controlling drugs, much less controlling ~200 million guns.

- The whole bit of disarming the general population would end horribly. As I've said earlier, loads of Americans truly believe in the whole "From my cold dead hands" bit. Trying to disarm them would just be bloody.

- It would still do next to next to nothing to stop things like this from happening, seeing as how widespread firearms are and how criminals, the mentally broken, and the like do not follow the law. They'd either get a gun illegally or find some other way to cause mayhem (I.E bombs, fire, blades, blunt objects, etc.) and the people who follow the law would just be defenseless against it. Also there are areas of the US with strict gun control (I.E like Connecticut, Illinois, California), yet it hasn't done a thing to quell crime. In many cases, crime is worse in those areas.

- About the whole police bit, police are well armed enough, they just can't be everywhere. And (yet again) there are the logistical issues & recruitment when it comes to the police.

Now, one thing could be done, is if there's a "gun-free" zone (which is where most of these massacres happen), it better be backed up with some proper security. In example the high school that I went to and schools in my area have 2-4 police in the buildings. Some out here even have metal detectors and the like. There have been no shootings or any other act of extreme violence at these places. Main reason why these sick cowards go for vulnerable targets. You're probably not going to hear about a massacre happening at a NRA convention or a gun shop, mainly because in those places the people are very far from vulnerable.

Hopefully that answered some of your questions, Joll. Kind of sad to say that we live in a place with such violent, crazy people. But there's little one can do against them besides either deterring them, or defending against them. Banning or severely limiting guns will only cause more issues.

I think I'll step out now, before the drama train rolls in.
 
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h0neymustard

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Repost... (since it wasn't answered in the other thread).

Why wouldn't much harsher restrictions lower the chances of this kind of thing? Where there are less guns in circulation, there are less gun deaths. Last time I checked, US murder rate was 4x higher than the UK - whereas the gun death rate was something like 80x higher, so it obviously has a big impact.

Sure - it'd be extremely difficult, especially if the number of civilian hand guns is correct (88 per 100 people?). But it does seem time to try to tackle the issue seriously. Tighter age restrictions, limits on how many and types of gun you can own - also how and where you keep them, and what they're used for. Gradually taking them out of circulation (or cutting off supply over time) would mean, at the very least, there were less accidental gun deaths.

There's obviously the problem where you don't want an undefended public unprotected against gun-wielding crims - so the Police would need to be armed for the forseeable future (or permanently?). And the amount of guns in the criminal community would have to be tackled too - how? I dunno. But surely it's worth giving it a try, rather than seeing this kind of thing happen 3 times a year or more?

No, it probably wouldn't remove the risk of this sort of thing entirely - but you could probably make big inroads into the annual gun deaths figure - and save many many lives.

So how about it?
Please keep your ideas in the UK. BTW, how are those knife laws doing? Is knife crime down because of your laws?
UK Sees Sharp Rise In Fatal Knife Attacks

Whoops, I guess not.

That 88/100 number is flawed, because some people have more than one gun. I have two myself. And I've killed a lot of people.

Wait, I've actually never hurt someone before. I THOUGHT GUNS CAUSED CRIME?????!!!!!
 

ConanTheBarber

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Please keep your ideas in the UK.

This is an international board. Please keep your rudeness in your heart.

That 88/100 number is flawed, because some people have more than one gun.

It's exactly what it claims to be ... a ratio of guns owned to total population.

Wait, I've actually never hurt someone before. I THOUGHT GUNS CAUSED CRIME?????!!!!!

Willfully obtuse.
People injure, murder or commit suicide with the means at hand.
Guns are a deadly means.
Where there are vastly fewer guns, there are vastly fewer problems.
 
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798686

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Please keep your ideas in the UK. BTW, how are those knife laws doing? Is knife crime down because of your laws?
UK Sees Sharp Rise In Fatal Knife Attacks

Whoops, I guess not.

That 88/100 number is flawed, because some people have more than one gun. I have two myself. And I've killed a lot of people.

Wait, I've actually never hurt someone before. I THOUGHT GUNS CAUSED CRIME?????!!!!!
Ridiculous.

Do you want us to keep our gun death rate to ourselves, too? Or would you rather persist with yours?

Out of 600 UK murders in 2010 - 51 were gun related.
Out of 12,996 US murders in 2010 - 8,755 were firearm related. And that's before you add accidental gun deaths - which takes the figure to 30,000.

Do you think if you severely restricted guns, that those accidental gun deaths would become accidental knife deaths? Unlikely. Or even that those 8,755 firearm murders would relate to murders by other weapons? Still unlikely.

If you want the figures taking population into consideration: US has 9 gun deaths per 100,000 population. UK has 0.22

Stop making excuses for yourselves, and deal with the problem. How many more massacres are you willing to accept before taking action?
 
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798686

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We've tried prohibition with alcohol and drugs. Sadly not only does it not work for us, but it caused many more problems. (I.E black markets & more crime)

To a few more points.

-Logistically speaking, the gov. wouldn't be able to afford rounding up all the firearms. They can't even handle controlling drugs, much less controlling ~200 million guns.

- The whole bit of disarming the general population would end horribly. As I've said earlier, loads of Americans truly believe in the whole "From my cold dead hands" bit. Trying to disarm them would just be bloody.

- It would still do next to next to nothing to stop things like this from happening, seeing as how widespread firearms are and how criminals, the mentally broken, and the like do not follow the law. They'd either get a gun illegally or find some other way to cause mayhem (I.E bombs, fire, blades, blunt objects, etc.) and the people who follow the law would just be defenseless against it. Also there are areas of the US with strict gun control (I.E like Connecticut, Illinois, California), yet it hasn't done a thing to quell crime. In many cases, crime is worse in those areas.

- About the whole police bit, police are well armed enough, they just can't be everywhere. And (yet again) there are the logistical issues & recruitment when it comes to the police.

Now, one thing could be done, is if there's a "gun-free" zone (which is where most of these massacres happen), it better be backed up with some proper security. In example the high school that I went to and schools in my area have 2-4 police in the buildings. Some out here even have metal detectors and the like. There have been no shootings or any other act of extreme violence at these places. Main reason why these sick cowards go for vulnerable targets. You're probably not going to hear about a massacre happening at a NRA convention or a gun shop, mainly because in those places the people are very far from vulnerable.

Hopefully that answered some of your questions, Joll. Kind of sad to say that we live in a place with such violent, crazy people. But there's little one can do against them besides either deterring them, or defending against them. Banning or severely limiting guns will only cause more issues.

I think I'll step out now, before the drama train rolls in.
Great post, Rems - thanks. :smile:

You raise a lot of interesting, and real, points - it would be hugely expensive (prohibitively?), and prohibition didn't end well. So... what to do? Obviously, for a generation or two at least, it would have to be about gradual, but persistent restriction. Both in terms of who could buy them, what they could buy, how many and at what age. Also - how and where they could be kept, with what checks. Reducing the amount in circulation (even if it's only to one per household initially) could have an impact.

There are a huge number of hurdles to overcome - but I just think that the current situation is untenable. Yes there is the issue that you wouldnt want criminals armed, and civilians not... but ways to tackle that would have to be found (much tighter restrictions, and less in circulation would certainly help - after all, many of the recent massacres were by unhinged, everyday ppl who bought their guns legally - not hardened criminals).

I agree that gun-free zones need to be protected more vigorously. Security/police at places like schools is sad - but perhaps necessary at the moment, and for quite a while until the problem is tackled.

Also - there's no way the police could go unarmed for a long time yet (or ever?).

The only argument I disagree with really, is the 'criminals would use other weapons' one. Well - possibly, but they're unlikely to be as damaging, or effective at killing in great number. In countries where guns have been restricted/banned - I'm not aware that the gun death figure has then translated into knife or bomb deaths. It's self-evident that with less guns around, there's be less opportunity for lunatics to get hold of them. It would never prevent it completely - but a lot could be done to reduce the carnage.

I'm not sure what could be done to change attitudes, or prise guns away from the dyed-in-the-wool gun lovers. But... maybe with law changes, and persistent publicity over decades (as with drink driving, or changing attitudes towards homophobia etc) attitudes could be changed, so you get to the point where the majority are against it?

Good luck tho - it's a huge hill to climb. But kudos to anyone who dares to tackle it. :p
 
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Daisy

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1. Tougher gun laws. It's more difficult to adopt a dog from a shelter than to buy a gun

2. Mental health services (and better legislation for family who can see someone's gone off the deep end but can't do anything about it)

3. When you put out games where the object is to kill as many people as possible do we REALLY wonder why young people are desensitized to violence? Its on TV and movies and video games. Violence is fun!

I don't really care to debate politics about this. There are a lot of grieving parents today who just want something to be done.