Gun control

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deleted15807

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And how do you suggest making a mentally unstable person take their meds especially once their an adult??? You cant and never will be able to control that. :rolleyes:

Exactly. Trying to control people will not work. Controlling access to dangerous things does work. Legally it is very very difficult to compel someone to take medication and then how do you police that? How do you ensure the meds are working? All this so that the gun nuts can can prove their toughness?


I can "make" statistics say anything I want them to...for example:
Apart from those kids still being alive.

touche
 

FuzzyKen

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While I don't agree with all your conclusions, and come from a different starting point as well, I'm grateful that you show a real attempt to wrestle with the proper response to this. I'd encourage you to avoid folding into the hopeless sentiments of your last sentence. This will go somewhere if you, I and others move past hopelessness into action, calling, writing, and organizing others to insist that our elected representatives pass laws to reduce the frequency and deadliness of these incidents. We will never elminate them, but just since Columbine we have now had more than 40 gun attacks at schools alone, with hundreds murdered. We can't accept this.

I actually welcome your response. My feeling is in no manner hopeless. At present the attitude on the part of many is to be penny wise and pound foolish as to where we allocate our tax dollars.

The "shooter" back in Connecticut it appears had a long history and presented evidence for some time of mental problems. His Mother, and sadly one of his victims covered up for her Son's problems walking behind his issues with a mop erasing his tracks. This is now known.

The Mother in this case pursued a hobby of shooting and target practice and was it appears a gun collector. The combination of a gun collector and a mentally unstable Son one would think would have been if nothing else a red flag to "Mom" that she should at least keep her personal gun collection under lock and key.

Something was done that set this young man off and created the circumstance that sent him over the edge.

Right now again the question to me is the knowledge and skill level he had to have to accomplish what he did. Going in and killing a total of 20 elementary school aged children is a horrific act. Did the shooter go into a classroom and just spray bullets at everything or did he then stalk those children that were living to finish them off. The adults in this scenario had some time to react before they too were gunned down. Were the particular adults "targeted" because the shooter had animosity towards them in particular as opposed to others, or did he just pick people at random to kill before removing himself.

Because it is relevant to trial the "training" he had may not be disclosed. The fact is that he will not be on trial, but the case still has to be closed with accurate information.

In Columbine HS in Colorado the trigger was a "geeks vs jocks" situation which has been played out nationwide over and over again. Schools in some cases derive money from athletic programs. As a result of this sadly there are schools where student athletes are favored and in fact some of these individuals literally get away with murder at both HS and sometimes collegiate levels if they are good enough.

What stood out at Columbine was the disclosure of the "how". The shooter in that case had used the training he had learned from various war oriented video games with regards to shooting targets as a sniper and the training he received in this area was effective.

The United States Military and a few law enforcement agencies use exactly the same methods to train "sharp shooters". The personal computer in essence becomes a "simulator" for the mentally unbalanced individual teaching that individual the procedures and techniques necessary to sight in, stalk and "take out" his assigned target.

We have been a Country that has unfortunately in the name of profits without due consideration and probably without intent glorified violence towards others. Video games abound where this kind of thinking and training is a part of the game.

There is also a propensity in the movie industry to take certain subjects and stress one aspect while totally ignoring others. Some years ago, a movie set I believe in a Florida H.S. depicted a kid that was an underdog going up against the "rich kid" in a form of fighting. This movie went into the "fighting" underground and did that in many aspects. During this film, this kid the underdog was in "training" and nobody questioned the battered and bruised kid in the school system. The "bully" in this case, was the rich kid and the attitudes displayed portrayed the school system as stupid and out and out incompetent at any form of detection to this kind of activity.

It is from this particular form of violence portrayed without any grasp of reality of the potential legal consequences of these actions that literally had me up in arms over this particular film. This film was nothing more or less than "human dog fighting" and for a time it was a very popular film with the teens and early 20 somethings.

What must be changed is to begin to place detection systems within the school environments in the form of Psychotherapists, Psychologists, and others to begin to address the problems that these disturbed youth are facing.

Detect the problem and get these kids help before they become a danger to themselves and or others.

I will absolutely defend the rights to bear arms as laid down by the United States Constitution. I do believe that there are certain weapons designed for the military should not be in private hands simply because even responsible collectors with the best of security and the best of intentions are targeted by their polar opposites to get those weapons because those weapons equal power in a big way. The issue is not the ownership of the AK-47 it is the danger that the legal owner of that AK-47 is placed in if some other less than honest individual finds out that the figurative "he" has it.

I also feel that we need to take another look at the way we disburse material that serves as instructional when it comes to how to kill our fellow man. We can teach our youth to hunt for food or survival as has been the way for many generations and is a tradition, or we can without intending it teach those with extreme mental issues how to effectively wipe out school rooms, teachers and commit mass killings with great skill because something intended for entertainment has been used as a learning tool based on it's realism. If we get rid of the "teaching material" and eliminate these kinds of "teaching aids" we are going to at least eliminate the nut cases that slip through the cracks. I absolutely despise censorship and I feel that there is a way to deal with this issue effectively without placing horrific restrictions on good honest and above all "sane" individuals.

Where I become apathetic is the wrangling over this that has been going on as these shootings happen. The first major red flag on this issue should have been Columbine and it was ignored. How many are going to have to die before we deal with those individuals are mentally ill and need to be placed in facilities where their illness can be treated. In the eyes of a politician we have to take the concept of "dollars and cents" out and in it's place we substitute "dollars and sense" which is sadly lacking and has been for some time.

In every case there are individuals who exhibit symptoms of extreme mental illness for a period of time and they then because their plight is ignored go on to commit heinous acts. The Holmes idiot that sprayed a movie theater is but one example of this. His Mother knew he was a ticking time bomb and from what has been released so far, it appears that she absolutely positively failed to even attempt to do anything about it. There is also some question of Holmes Mother having a position in the mental health industry which in some cases makes that woman what is called a "mandated reporter". The shooter in Connecticut and the shooter that sprayed a theater with bullets seemed to have at least one thing in common and that was a Mother who ignored facts and allowed disaster to strike.

Schools from Elementary to Collegiate level have a responsibility to the communities they serve. Problem students exhibiting symptoms that have potential to represent mental illness need to be examined carefully. Up until now this has not been the case and "thick 12" my friend, you are right, it is you and I who are ultimately responsible by not writing to our leadership about the severity of this issue and the need to increase funding for mental health in the nations school systems. The problem is that increasing funding on anything places life above money and extremist conservatives are going to squeal like stuck pigs at the barest mention of the allocation or spending of the funds required to prevent this kind of thing in the future via mental health intervention.
 
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BigBoy14

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How does less weapons = less victims?

I could use 1 weapon, purchased illegally, to kill 100 people...
 

ConanTheBarber

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Actually that would be a worthy worthy goal. I'm not sure how the American experience got so seduced by violence. I suppose part of it is Hollywood and exploiting the brain. Producers know what gets people to watch. Hate works well. Killing works well. Peace, knowledge and understanding works less well. The fact that it works 'less well' should be a part of the journey towards education and understanding that is or should be everyone's life effort. I would hate to think I'm the exact same person I was in my 20's as I would be in my 50's or 60's.
Changing attitudes would be very slow and, while I hope there are efforts to do so, I doubt that very much headway will be made.
But who knows?


The mental health picture could easily be fixed if we simply eliminated the tools that a deranged mind would use. How much money is going down the john to keep the nukes and biological weapons out of terrorists hands? To prevent another 9/11? Approximately 2700 people dies in 9/11 yet we triple that number every year with handguns while Japan has 10.
I agree that reducing the level of gun ownership is the most powerful strategy in reducing the number of deaths from firearms.
The other strategies, while necessary, are not quite as important, in my mind.
But it will all be very difficult and I'm not an optimist at all on this matter.
 

ConanTheBarber

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How does less weapons = less victims?

I could use 1 weapon, purchased illegally, to kill 100 people...
You can do that now.
But if there were fewer guns available, the overall incidence would be lower.
Not zero, but lower.
Why is this so hard to grasp? The whole world gets it. But not a certain slice of American society.
The Second Amendment may have been well meant and may have been justifiable in 1791, but its effect over time has been disastrous.
 

FuzzyKen

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Exactly. Trying to control people will not work. Controlling access to dangerous things does work. Legally it is very very difficult to compel someone to take medication and then how do you police that? How do you ensure the meds are working? All this so that the gun nuts can can prove their toughness?





touche

Though and I would probably agree on many issues this will not be one of them.

I have watched a situation that has gone on for many years. In Los Angeles there is a young man who inherited a form of schizophrenia from his Mother. As is often the case this young man started getting into trouble in his teens when the voices began to take over his life.

This young man who would not "take his meds" went into relapse after relapse and every time this happened people and property were sacrificed at a horrendous cost.

Among his list of entertaining diversions we have arson, assault, battery, theft, causing automobile accidents that could have resulted in death, and all of these things happened because we couldn't make this fellow take his meds.

Each time he committed an act he was placed into a mental hospital where he remained for increasing periods of time. They would give him medication get him regulated and he would be fine and then as most of these do he would on his own stop taking the medication and his demons would return.

When his Father passed away through interesting circumstance he inherited the family home where he lives to this day. He has never in his entire life had any kind of job, he has never contributed a dime in taxes in his entire life, he has found numerous suckers to pay the taxes on that piece of real estate in the Los Angeles area now worth about $500,000, and he survives until the next time.

To prevent the attempt at causing an automobile accident when he threw a rock that weighed about 10 pounds through the windshield of a car traveling down the Pasadena Freeway at about 55 miles per hour I guess by your logic we should outlaw possession of rocks.

When God told him to burn down the family home he used matches and gasoline. Well then we need to outlaw matches and gasoline too.

When he physically assaulted a Los Angeles Police Officer and threw him through the window of a Taco Bell Restaurant onto a hot steam table I guess we need to find a way to outlaw Adreneline.

While your argument of outlawing guns sounds good it is sadly far too simplistic and in individuals who are mentally ill it will not prevent the problems. This fellow was creative he had no access to firearms and yet he in his delusional state managed to create incredible damage that could have been a great deal worse.

As I have already stated, I do believe in some controls specifically "assault weapons" and I do believe that maybe better background checks before allowing purchase might weed out a few more, but no matter what we do we are not going to get rid of all of these individuals and a few of the mentally ill no matter what you do are going to find ways to gain access to firearms and commit acts that are reprehensible.
 

ConanTheBarber

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To prevent the attempt at causing an automobile accident when he threw a rock that weighed about 10 pounds through the windshield of a car traveling down the Pasadena Freeway at about 55 miles per hour I guess by your logic we should outlaw possession of rocks.

When God told him to burn down the family home he used matches and gasoline. Well then we need to outlaw matches and gasoline too.

When he physically assaulted a Los Angeles Police Officer and threw him through the window of a Taco Bell Restaurant onto a hot steam table I guess we need to find a way to outlaw Adreneline.
Rocks, matches, gasoline ... none of these are comparable to guns.
How many deaths do those three cause?
As for adrenaline ... yes, you could do a lot by limiting the excretion of adrenaline in some people. But it's unachievable.
As reductiones ad absurdum go, this one is under the bar.
Odd for me, because your posts as a whole are outstanding.
 
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balsary

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I've just gone back through this entire thread, and I've noticed what I think is an interesting trend. The people most adamant about the US banning most if not all guns are not even from the US. Sargon, Conan, Jason, Joll, Drifterwood (moreso in the other thread), vibrationz, all of you claim to know what's best for Americans yet, you don't live here. I'm not saying that there aren't any Americans arguing the anti-gun side, but it has been overwhelmingly fought by foreigners.

In contrast, the people that claim the problem goes much deeper are Americans. And here's the kicker, most of us are Liberal Democrats.

How can you anti-gun folks not accept that there is a difference in culture? In a post earlier, I compared the US' individualistic culture to that of Japan's heirarchal culture. That was the wrong comparison to make (though hierarchy in Japan is different than in the US). It's the comparison of the individualistic culture of America vs. the collective culture of Japan that I meant to make. The below comparison comes from this site: Collectivist and individualist cultures - Psychology Wiki

"Traits of Collectivism

Each person is encouraged to be an active player in society, to do what is best for society as a whole rather than themselves.

The rights of families, communities, and the collective supersede those of the individual.

Rules promote unity, brotherhood, and selflessness.

Working with others and cooperating is the norm; everyone supports each other as a community, family or nation more than as an individual.

Traits of Individualism

"I" identity.

Promotes individual goals, initiative and achievement.

Individual rights are seen as being the most important. Rules attempt to ensure self-importance and individualism.

Independence is valued; there is much less of a drive to help other citizens or communities than in collectivism.

Relying or being dependent on others is frequently seen as shameful.

People are encouraged to do things on their own; to rely on themselves."

Japan and The United States are generally regarded as polar opposites on this spectrum. The argument that something works in Japan, therefore it would work in the US is completely naive and holds absolutely no water.

I personally would welcome the collective culture to America. I think it would go a long way to solving many of the problems that we regularly face, but the fact is, we are too deeply entrenched in our individualistic culture.

Anyone have thoughts on what I've actually said here?
 
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balsary

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Actually that would be a worthy worthy goal. I'm not sure how the American experience got so seduced by violence. I suppose part of it is Hollywood and exploiting the brain. Producers know what gets people to watch. Hate works well. Killing works well. Peace, knowledge and understanding works less well. The fact that it works 'less well' should be a part of the journey towards education and understanding that is or should be everyone's life effort. I would hate to think I'm the exact same person I was in my 20's as I would be in my 50's or 60's.


The mental health picture could easily be fixed if we simply eliminated the tools that a deranged mind would use. How much money is going down the john to keep the nukes and biological weapons out of terrorists hands? To prevent another 9/11? Approximately 2700 people dies in 9/11 yet we triple that number every year with handguns while Japan has 10.




You're offended? Too bad. You live by the sword you die by the sword. Should we feel sorry for someone that keeps pet rattlesnakes in their home then one day one turns around and bits them? They knew what they were when they brought them into the house. Fuck Nancy Lanza. I hope she's burning in hell.



'Nuff said'? Right. I suppose 10,000 people dead a year doesn't count as 'mass destruction' to you? If we throw in a few leveled buildings would that then pass muster with you? 10,000 people dead and countless interconnected lives destroyed but it's not mass destruction. Got it. All the mass shootings were not mass destruction Got it. We need to throw in some property. I'm with you. :rolleyes:

If the United States wanted to enact an outright ban it could. Yes it would be difficult but to say it can't be done is a capitulation to more mass shootings. It's a best practice that's been proven.

How did I know this is all I'd get back from you? Again, you've chosen to ignore every point I've made and are simply trying to force your view without substance. I won't be responding to you anymore in this thread. I will however leave you with this interesting bit of info. The article you posted earlier A Land Without Guns: How Japan Has Virtually Eliminated Shooting Deaths - Max Fisher - The Atlantic cites the article that I posted, you know the one you dismissed simply because it was from The Rifleman, as both current and relevant.Japan: Gun Control and People Control

From your article: "The process is detailed in David Kopel's landmark study on Japanese gun control, published in the 1993 Asia Pacific Law Review, still cited as current.". The Rifleman article is simply a condensed version of this article.
 
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Remington

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This will probably fall on deaf ears, but I'll just type this out anyway.

- Logistically speaking, banning, confiscating, or otherwise "getting rid" of firearms is nigh-impossible for us. We can't even control our drug problem, much less the 200 million+ firearms we have here.

- On top of that, say there was a ban or something of the sort implemented. Unlike other parts of the world, plenty of Americans (read millions) would refuse to be disarmed. Not only that, plenty would fight & die to keep their 2nd amendment rights.

- It still wouldn't do anything to prevent sick & violent individuals from doing sick & violent things. Especially when it comes to massacres. You cannot legislate "evil" away. It's not as if these things are just "spur of the moment" or done by the unintelligent. The "people" that do these acts are typically pathological, intelligent, and plan these attacks out. Going anywhere from the weapons used to the actual place, typically a very vulnerable one where their victims have little to no defense.

Now, onto the few individuals that believe that we don't "need" guns for self-defense, believe you can just count on the police to protect you, believing that they're only used for attacks, believing that everyone just carries guns to feel more like a "man" and other fuckery of the sort, etc. I'm going to summarize the three violent incidents that have happened to me. I am not doing this out of sympathy, or to sound "badass", just to inform.

- Some crackheads violently broke into my uncle's home while we were sleeping. Ransacking the place and causing myself, my mother, & my aunt to cower in the main bedroom while my aunt called the cops and my uncle guarded the door with his shotgun. They came upstairs and broke the bedroom door down while my uncle open fired on them, hitting one of them while the others bailed. Afterward, he kept his gun trained on the druggie until the police showed up, minutes later.

- Another "less" violent one happened while I was going in a 7-11. Where as I was entering, 4 guys jumped the hell out of me for my car, not even giving me the option to hand over the car keys. I was able to shove them off & draw my weapon, causing them to bail. No shots were fired, didn't even have to aim at them. The gun was enough.

- Last one involved myself & my (at the time) adolescent, female cousin having an unfortunate run-in with 4 white-power minded types that took heavy offense to "some niggers riding around in a fancy rice rocket" at a stop light. They took even more offense when I rolled up my window to quell their verbal abuse. So much that they threw a hammer at it, showering myself & my cousin in glass and hitting me in the side of the head, which has caused me permanent hearing damage and mild balance issues. Then proceeded to push my car off into the closest thing we have to a ditch and assault the car with constriction tools while pulling both of us out of the. All while whooping, hollering, threatening death & hurling racial obscenities. They gave me no choice but to draw & open fire, hitting one of them. Which did cause them either to stop or bail. Afterward, there were some good Samaritans that helped tend to my cousin and keep the fuckers detained & at bay until EMTs and police showed up, minutes later, after the carnage was over.

I do hope that whoever reads this, takes notice that my attackers didn't have guns. Just the mindset to hurt. And that things like this happen the world over, not just in the US. Main difference, we (and some other nations) do have the ability to legally defend ourselves from violent attackers with firearms. And can say in my case, if I wasn't armed, I probably wouldn't be here today or I'd be in much worse shape.

As far as our situation goes when it comes to dealing with massacres, I don't have all the answers. The only things I can suggest is that we tackle the issue of the mental heath of our people, and harden up our vulnerable "gun-free" zones or just get rid of them. I believe that will do a lot more good than even attempting to legislate a ban or anything of the sort. Further control isn't going to solve this issue and disarming us not only isn't an option but would cause even more issues (I.e more crime) and leave us even more vulnerable than what we are.

I'm going to leave this thread now. If someone wishes to speak to me on this subject, contact me by other means.
 
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One thing I realized over the years is that the will of a human being is very under rated. Someone who truly wants to be a doctor will find a way to be a doctor. Someone who wants to be an athlete will find a way to be an athlete. Someone who wants to be a scientist will find a way to be a scientist.

This apply's to crazy people as well, if someone wants to kill a bunch of people, they will find a way to do it. The only reason guns keep getting used is because it's the easiest way to do crazy shit. Is that a problem? Yes, I believe so. But it is not the biggest issue, the biggest issue is the crazy people doing crazy shit. If all guns were somehow disappeared from society, the guy who did the mass shooting would have found a way to do his damage if he really wanted to do it. Outlawing guns won't lower crime one bit, it will only change how crime is done.

History repeats itself because people, for the most part, are dumb. Before guns everyone used swords and knives to do their crazy shit. In the future when guns become obsolete people will use whatever replaced guns to do their crazy shit. "Controlling guns" will be about as effective as "the war on drugs". And for those saying guns should be illegal, if anything, making guns illegal will only make it easier for crazy people to get access to them. If you think that is bs, think about this. Now a days, its easier for a 16 year old to get crack than to get beer, no drug dealer is going to take ID. All they want is money, the same rules will apply to guns if it were to be illegal. Instead of registering guns and filling out paperwork etc just to get a hand gun, you can just go to a shady back ally, make a few phone calls and boom, now you have a fully automatic AK47 to add to your collection. Hell, now a days guns are pretty much sold in that fashion anyway, and if you think I'm not serious, go on youtube and watch some Chief Keef music videos. This kid is like 17 years old and he's waving automatic rifiles in his videos like its legal.

Pandoras box has been open, live with it
 

balsary

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Thank you for posting! This is exactly how i feel about guns. I just dont see their value whatsoever!

Yes, because YOU don't see their value they should be banned. Nevermind the millions of Americans that do see their value, or the many reasons for owning a firearm that have been brought up throughout this thread. This seems to be the underlying argument for the anti-gun crowd. "My situation in life doesn't facilitate the need for a weapon, so EVERYONE else's situation must not either."
 

ConanTheBarber

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I've just gone back through this entire thread, and I've noticed what I think is an interesting trend. The people most adamant about the US banning most if not all guns are not even from the US. Sargon, Conan, Jason, Joll, Drifterwood (moreso in the other thread), vibrationz, all of you claim to know what's best for Americans yet, you don't live here. I'm not saying that there aren't any Americans arguing the anti-gun side, but it has been overwhelmingly fought by foreigners.

In contrast, the people that claim the problem goes much deeper are Americans. And here's the kicker, most of us are Liberal Democrats.

How can you anti-gun folks not accept that there is a difference in culture? In a post earlier, I compared the US' individualistic culture to that of Japan's heirarchal culture. That was the wrong comparison to make (though hierarchy in Japan is different than in the US). It's the comparison of the individualistic culture of America vs. the collective culture of Japan that I meant to make. The below comparison comes from this site: Collectivist and individualist cultures - Psychology Wiki

"Traits of Collectivism

Each person is encouraged to be an active player in society, to do what is best for society as a whole rather than themselves.

The rights of families, communities, and the collective supersede those of the individual.

Rules promote unity, brotherhood, and selflessness.

Working with others and cooperating is the norm; everyone supports each other as a community, family or nation more than as an individual.

Traits of Individualism

"I" identity.

Promotes individual goals, initiative and achievement.

Individual rights are seen as being the most important. Rules attempt to ensure self-importance and individualism.

Independence is valued; there is much less of a drive to help other citizens or communities than in collectivism.

Relying or being dependent on others is frequently seen as shameful.

People are encouraged to do things on their own; to rely on themselves."

Japan and The United States are generally regarded as polar opposites on this spectrum. The argument that something works in Japan, therefore it would work in the US is completely naive and holds absolutely no water.
I agree with you that you cannot transplant holus bolus what works in Japan to American shores. But the distance on the collectivist-individualist spectrum is in that case extreme.

You list me, Sargon, Jason, Joll, Drifterwood and vibrationz as people who, given their countries of origin, could not understand American individualism. (You don't quite say that, but you do seem to assume we don't understand American culture, which is individualistic.)

I don't know where Sargon is from. I always assumed he was American, though, on reflection, I don't know why.

But Jason, Joll and Drifterwood are all from the UK. Vibrationz is from Australia. And I am from Canada.

You could also have mentioned Perados, who is from Germany.

Let me give the list of individualist countries given in the article you cite. I will highlight a few interesting entries.


  • Germany
  • Canada
  • Australia
  • United Kingdom
  • France
  • Ireland
  • Turkey
  • United States
  • The Netherlands
 
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Jason

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I've just gone back through this entire thread, and I've noticed what I think is an interesting trend. The people most adamant about the US banning most if not all guns are not even from the US. Sargon, Conan, Jason, Joll, Drifterwood (moreso in the other thread), vibrationz, all of you claim to know what's best for Americans yet, you don't live here.

.........

How can you anti-gun folks not accept that there is a difference in culture?

Shortly after his election, Prime Minister David Cameron visited China and made a speech there which contained a lot of criticism of China. He set out that there are some matters which we regard as universal values, not something that can be determined by a nation's culture, and that on matters around human dignity the UK found China to be wrong.

I think most non-Americans looking at the American "gun-culture" react with incomprehension. A culture that defines itself as a so-called "gun-culture" and which asserts a right to guns is simply wrong. The position is a universal value. A clear statement is one of the earliest: Thou shalt not kill. Or try love thy enemy. Or the rights of individuals to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The practice of mass gun ownership so belittles Americans and the USA that there is utter amazement that America should seek to defend this immorality. There can be no defence - how many kids have to die to prove this? Or how many Americans have to die every year through shootings?

There are plenty of nations that assert individual freedom without gun ownership. The practice in the USA isn't just wrong, it is evil.
 
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balsary

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I agree with you that you cannot transplant holus bolus what works in Japan in American shores. But the distance on the collectivist-individualist spectrum is in that case extreme.

You list me, Sargon, Jason, Joll, Drifterwood and vibrationz as people who, given their countries of origin, could not understand American individualism.

I don't know where Sargon is from. I always assumed he was American, though, on reflection, I don't know why.

But Jason, Joll and Drifterwood are all from the UK. Vibrationz is from Australia. And I am from Canada.

You could also have mentioned Perados, who is from Germany.

Let me give the list of individualist countries given in the article you cite. I will highlight a few interesting entries.


  • Germany
  • Canada
  • Australia
  • United Kingdom
  • France
  • Ireland
  • Turkey
  • United States
  • The Netherlands

I meant to include Perados, as he's been one of the most adamant. I noticed all those other countries on the individualist list, and should have just addressed that in the original post. Let me do so now. I think we can both agree that the countries you highlighted are far less individualistic than the US is. All of them are more socialist than the US. As well, none of them are as strict as Japan is in their gun laws. In a previous post, you can see that I don't attribute all of our problems to culture. It is one of many factors. Also, I'm sure you can agree that none of the nations you've highlighted have ever had near the gun culture that the US does.

In regards to Sargon, I too had always assumed that he was from the US. I had also assumed that he was rational and could engage in debate using reason and facts, not by attacking his opponent. He's proven me wrong on both counts in this thread.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that I'm not in the least bit saying that any of you from other countries shouldn't have an opinion on the matter, nor am I trying to silence you guys. I just find it interesting that people from outside the US are the most adamant about banning guns here in the US. I've enjoyed most of what the non-US posters have had to say, and it has changed my views ever so slightly.
 
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