Gun control

[B_4Aspiring2Porn0]

Shortly after his election, Prime Minister David Cameron visited China and made a speech there which contained a lot of criticism of China. He set out that there are some matters which we regard as universal values, not something that can be determined by a nation's culture, and that on matters around human dignity the UK found China to be wrong.

I think most non-Americans looking at the American "gun-culture" react with incomprehension. A culture that defines itself as a so-called "gun-culture" and which asserts a right to guns is simply wrong. The position is a universal value. A clear statement is one of the earliest: Thou shalt not kill. Or try love thy enemy. Or the rights of individuals to life, liberty and the purely of happiness. The practice of mass gun ownership so belittles Americans and the USA that there is utter amazement that America should seek to defend this immorality. There can be no defence - how many kids have to die to prove this? Or how many Americans have to die every year through shootings?

There are plenty of nations that assert individual freedom without gun ownership. The practice in the USA isn't just wrong, it is evil.

The large majority of Americans aren't evil. Most gun owners are normal people who like to hunt or are protecting their home. Just because you don't understand us, doesn't mean we're evil. That statement just shows your ignorance. Why punish innocent people because some people are crazy?

And I never understood how its America that's considered the gun culture, in Africa you can buy an automatic rifle for $20. Or what about the middle east where places like America and the UK arm gorilla fighters for political reasons? How many innocent kids do you think get caught up in the cross fires in Mexico? Yet nobody cares (the media is usually quiet when people of color are involved in shootings so there's no surprise about that)

 

[798686]

- Logistically speaking, banning, confiscating, or otherwise "getting rid" of firearms is nigh-impossible for us. We can't even control our drug problem, much less the 200 million+ firearms we have here.

- On top of that, say there was a ban or something of the sort implemented. Unlike other parts of the world, plenty of Americans (read millions) would refuse to be disarmed. Not only that, plenty would fight & die to keep their 2nd amendment rights.

- It still wouldn't do anything to prevent sick & violent individuals from doing sick & violent things.

Getting rid of the guns does seem a real, and extremely complicated problem. After listening to Balsary and Rem in particular I can see that there are other important issues that need to be tackled in conjunction with gun control (which I still think would be the most helpful) - mental health care and assessment, cultural attitudes, public safety, general violence and influence of the media (vid games, etc), the list goes on.

If it was to be tackled (and I guess it's in the balance whether it will be or not - altho Obama seems to be showing signs of wanting action on it), I guess it would need to be addressed on every front possible, to stand a chance of having a positive effect.

The issue about Americans refusing to be disarmed is a difficult one, too. If presented over time with overwhelming evidence that restriction of certain types of weapons, greater checks etc would drastically reduce the firearm homicide rate - would they be prepared to vote in favour of restriction... or not? Maybe a referendum is what's needed - after a long debate about the need for restriction and the pros and cons - so they can decide for themselves. I still wouldn't mind someone explaining to me exactly WHY Americans feel the second amendment is a basic human right, when much of the rest of the world feels the opposite?! :tongue:

As far as stopping crazy people goes, obviously you can't - but if they have much less access to lethal weapons the damage they have is obviously much less (as is borne out by the injuries in the recent Chinese knife attack vs. deaths in the Newtown shooting). Some will have the determination to wreak havoc anyway, but quite a few possibly may not (as seems to be the case in the UK and elsewhere).

Thanks for the personal experiences, Rem - pretty enlightening (and frightening). I guess - violent attitudes and a lack of safety across the board needs to be tackled (zero tolerance a la Giuliani?) so people feel, and are, much more secure.

It all takes a long time, and there are many obstacles in the way - but if it does ultimately have a beneficial result, it might be worth starting on the journey?

And I also am backing out now - at the 3rd attempt, lol.

Peace y'all.

 

[balsary]

Shortly after his election, Prime Minister David Cameron visited China and made a speech there which contained a lot of criticism of China. He set out that there are some matters which we regard as universal values, not something that can be determined by a nation's culture, and that on matters around human dignity the UK found China to be wrong.

I think most non-Americans looking at the American "gun-culture" react with incomprehension. A culture that defines itself as a so-called "gun-culture" and which asserts a right to guns is simply wrong. The position is a universal value. A clear statement is one of the earliest: Thou shalt not kill. Or try love thy enemy. Or the rights of individuals to life, liberty and the purely of happiness. The practice of mass gun ownership so belittles Americans and the USA that there is utter amazement that America should seek to defend this immorality. There can be no defence - how many kids have to die to prove this? Or how many Americans have to die every year through shootings?

There are plenty of nations that assert individual freedom without gun ownership. The practice in the USA isn't just wrong, it is evil.

Let me just say that while I defend the right to bear arms, I don't defend America's gun culture. I'm just realistic in knowing that too many Americans do identify with this gun culture and that trying to take away their guns would be suicide and impossible. Do we need automatic weapons? No, they are illegal already. Do we need assault rifles? No, I personally would support the banning of assault rifles. Is there a justifiable need for a civilian to own a gun? Yes, (at least for now) Remington's post above is a good example of why, as are the statistics that show guns save lives in the US. Until the other problems I've mentioned are solved (or at least addressed); culture, poverty, and mental health I don't see how simply removing guns will stop the senseless killing of our citizens. We have problems which cause some of us to pick up a gun and kill innocent people. We don't have innocent people that because they pick up a gun become killers.

 

[ConanTheBarber]

I meant to include Perados, as he's been one of the most adamant. I noticed all those other countries on the individualist list, and should have just addressed that in the original post. Let me do so now. I think we can both agree that the countries you highlighted are far less individualistic than the US is. All of them are more socialist than the US. As well, none of them are as strict as Japan is in their gun laws. In a previous post, you can see that I don't attribute all of our problems to culture. It is one of many factors. Also, I'm sure you can agree that none of the nations you've highlighted have ever had near the gun culture that the US does.

True, none has had the gun culture that the U.S. has. Nor has any other country in the world. Interesting, no?
One reason it's hard to relinquish is because you are now swimming in a sea of guns.
It's one thing to reduce access to weapons when they are accessible but nonetheless relatively rare. Quite another when 80 million of your compatriots own guns (NRA figure, I can't vouch for its accuracy).
Forty-nine of 50 states allow concealed carry, and the fiftieth is, I believe, soon to enact a law conferring the same privilege.
To most of the world, this kind of legal reality is simply mind boggling.
So I'm fine if you say there is a cultural difference.
And that does complicate matters.
I have never called for the U.S. to outright ban access to guns; we certainly haven't done that in Canada. But surely you can ban assault weapons, eliminate large capacity magazines, end the really quite ridiculous ease with which nutbars can buy very lethal weapons at gun fairs, and tighten up your whole registration process.
At some point, tragedy and common sense must trump 'culture.'
If even a self-described "bleeding heart liberal" fails to see this, what hope is there?
(I don't want to be too strong on this point, however. You are a good guy, balsary. I see that.)

In regards to Sargon, I too had always assumed that he was from the US. I had also assumed that he was rational and could engage in debate using reason and facts, not by attacking his opponent. He's proven me wrong on both counts in this thread.

Where is he from, then?

 

[Jason]

The large majority of Americans aren't evil.QUOTE]

Agreed. I called the practice evil. It is a direct breach of the morality of all the major world religions. It causes needless death and suffering. And it so damages people that they feel they can defend, though it is beyond defense. I've read some of the posts on this thread and heard some views on television with the same sort of revulsion that I feel when people seek to defend a practice such as female circumcision. I think Americans are so used to guns that in many cases they really do see nothing wrong, just as many in the Sudan see nothing wrong with female circumcision.

The problem in the Sudan is that we have a nation not properly engaging with the international community such that people there really do see nothing wrong with this barbarism. American exceptionalism can amount to a similar detachment. EVERY SINGLE first world nation has fundamentally different gun control to the USA. That the USA is wrong goes beyond an opinion. If you are part of the global village you find consensus with the global mores.

 

[balsary]

True, none has had the gun culture that the U.S. has. Nor has any other country in the world. Interesting, no?
One reason it's hard to relinquish is because you are now swimming in a sea of guns.
It's one thing to reduce access to weapons when they are accessible but nonetheless relatively rare. Quite another when 80 million of your compatriots own guns (NRA figure, I can't vouch for its accuracy).
Forty-nine of 50 states allow concealed carry, and the fiftieth is, I believe, soon to enact a law conferring the same privilege.
To most of the world, this kind of legal reality is simply mind boggling.
So I'm fine if you say there is a cultural difference.
And that does complicate matters.
I have never called for the U.S. to outright ban access to guns; we certainly haven't done that in Canada. But surely you can ban assault weapons, eliminate large capacity magazines, end the really quite ridiculous ease with which nutbars can buy very lethal weapons at gun fairs, and tighten up your whole registration process.
At some point, tragedy and common sense must trump 'culture.'
If even a self-described "bleeding heart liberal" fails to see this, what hope is there?
(I don't want to be too strong on this point, however. You are a good guy, balsary. I see that.)


Where is he from, then?

It appears you're at the least starting to see my point. I agree with The bold part, and I imagine we're going to see it happen soon.

At one point there was a post of Sargons which I thought he referred to Americans as "you guys" or something similar. I'm not able to find that post now so maybe I'm wrong.

 

[ConanTheBarber]

It appears you're at the least starting to see my point. I agree with The bold part, and I imagine we're going to see it happen soon.

My view hasn't changed.
Here's one of my posts from the Pleistocene era:

Banning assault weapons, screening those who apply for gun licences more closely, trying to soften the glorification of violence in the media … these strategies and others would probably only be promoted from the starting assumption that guns are too freely available.
Which, through several threads, has been my point and that of many others.

Now, returning to the rest of your post:

At one point there was a post of Sargons which I thought he referred to Americans as "you guys" or something similar. I'm not able to find that post now so maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe he was referring to Americans who hold conservative views on restricting gun ownership.

 

[balsary]

My view hasn't changed.
Here's one of my posts from the Pleistocene era:


Now, returning to the rest of your post:


Maybe he was referring to Americans who hold conservative views on restricting gun ownership.

I was speaking in regards to cultural differences.

Maybe he was. Regardless, he's lost one in his audience.

 

[redneckgymrat]

We have problems which cause some of us to pick up a gun and kill innocent people. We don't have innocent people that because they pick up a gun become killers.

Beautifully stated.

A shame, that the distinction will be lost on many in this thread.

 

[deleted15807]

I won't be responding to you anymore in this thread.

God I hope so. Apparently you've got diarrhea of the keyboard. You should have that looked at.

 

[balsary]

God I hope so. Apparently you've got diarrhea of the keyboard. You should have that looked at.

I guess I lied, as I find myself responding to you once again. You've shown above far better than I ever could have why I've chosen to ignore you. Care to clear up where you're from, or can I not even get a straight answer to that?

 

[ConanTheBarber]

Care to clear up where you're from, or can I not even get a straight answer to that?

He's got to be American or he couldn't have the detailed knowledge of what goes on in the States that he's shown through thousands of posts.

 

[redneckgymrat]

He's got to be American or he couldn't have the detailed knowledge of what goes on in the States that he's shown through thousands of posts.

I can debunk that with a single word. Expat.

He's shows a consistent hatred of America, and his stated views are so counter to normal life in America, that it seems improbable that he, assuming he ever was an American, would choose to remain one.

 

[ConanTheBarber]

I can debunk that with a single word. Expat.

He's shows a consistent hatred of America, and his stated views are so counter to normal life in America, that it seems improbable that he, assuming he ever was an American, would choose to remain one.

You offer a possibility.
But he's pretty up to date on most things.
Easier done stateside.
But who knows?

(I think his distaste is mostly for all things Republican. Hatred of America itself? That hadn't registered on me.)

 

[Dakota Kid]

You offer a possibility.
But he's pretty up to date on most things.
Easier done stateside.
But who knows?

(I think his distaste is mostly for all things Republican. Hatred of America itself? That hadn't registered on me.)

My bet is he's a professor at an American university indoctrinating our youth with his views.
Probably not even an American to boot

.

 

[ConanTheBarber]

My bet is he's a professor at an American university indoctrinating our youth with his views.
Probably not even an American to boot

Hold your tomatoes: He's a frustrated American idealist.
I have no clue, DK. None at all.

 

[185248]

I've just gone back through this entire thread, and I've noticed what I think is an interesting trend. The people most adamant about the US banning most if not all guns are not even from the US. Sargon, Conan, Jason, Joll, Drifterwood (moreso in the other thread), vibrationz, all of you claim to know what's best for Americans yet, you don't live here. I'm not saying that there aren't any Americans arguing the anti-gun side, but it has been overwhelmingly fought by foreigners.

In contrast, the people that claim the problem goes much deeper are Americans. And here's the kicker, most of us are Liberal Democrats.

How can you anti-gun folks not accept that there is a difference in culture? In a post earlier, I compared the US' individualistic culture to that of Japan's heirarchal culture. That was the wrong comparison to make (though hierarchy in Japan is different than in the US). It's the comparison of the individualistic culture of America vs. the collective culture of Japan that I meant to make. The below comparison comes from this site: Collectivist and individualist cultures - Psychology Wiki

"Traits of Collectivism

Each person is encouraged to be an active player in society, to do what is best for society as a whole rather than themselves.

The rights of families, communities, and the collective supersede those of the individual.

Rules promote unity, brotherhood, and selflessness.

Working with others and cooperating is the norm; everyone supports each other as a community, family or nation more than as an individual.

Traits of Individualism

"I" identity.

Promotes individual goals, initiative and achievement.

Individual rights are seen as being the most important. Rules attempt to ensure self-importance and individualism.

Independence is valued; there is much less of a drive to help other citizens or communities than in collectivism.

Relying or being dependent on others is frequently seen as shameful.

People are encouraged to do things on their own; to rely on themselves."

Japan and The United States are generally regarded as polar opposites on this spectrum. The argument that something works in Japan, therefore it would work in the US is completely naive and holds absolutely no water.

I personally would welcome the collective culture to America. I think it would go a long way to solving many of the problems that we regularly face, but the fact is, we are too deeply entrenched in our individualistic culture.

Anyone have thoughts on what I've actually said here?

You started a thread on gun control on a public forum. I as a person living in a country that has guns decided to answer. No-where did you say only US citizens answer.

We at one time use to suffer from gun massacres, a couple of years after the last one we decided to put it to the people on what we should do. The people voted for stricter controls on firearms, on a national level.

To switch it around some US citizens think other countries do not have the same freedoms you do. Believe me, we have just as many as you do, if not more. On a side note, one thing I don't agree with here, is it is compulsory to vote but hey, that's another story.

I can drive from one side of Australia through all the states and territory, to the other, and know the same gun laws apply. We are a huge place, people hunt with guns, guns for sport, and guns for their hobbies.

Maybe we are a more stable culture here...at the moment. We will probably have some nutter get loose with a gun at some point again, but it has not happened since we introduced national laws. Guns are not banned, we just introduced laws that deterred us from becoming a culture dependent on guns. There is an old saying. Fire is a good friend but a bad master. The same can be said of guns. Australia decided to act as a collective conscience on an issue of importance to us all, but we can be as fiercely independent as you guys are.

Nothing can be done in your country in relation to firearms. From state to state it changes and as I said in a post earlier some of those states would find it unbearable to have national laws imposed on them. I balk at the thought of some of the reactions. It's the culture you guys have, if you were able to put it to a democratic vote you would, but you can't.

 

[deleted213967]

It's the culture you guys have, if you were able to put it to a democratic vote you would, but you can't.

What does that even mean?

You mean that American culture the rest of the world cannot get enough of somehow does not reflect Americans?

You are only a couple of clicks away from a slew of surveys of American public opinion. The right to bear arms is sacrosanct here.

You are confusing the bath water of highly-destructive weapons used by a completely disturbed (and dead) child-man with the baby of an inalienable right to bear arms enshrined in our Constitution.

 

[185248]

The only survey is the one at the ballot box. The right to bear arms, so when did that become the need to bear arms?

 

[deleted15807]

He's got to be American or he couldn't have the detailed knowledge of what goes on in the States that he's shown through thousands of posts.

Born: Washington D.C., United States of America
Current: Washington D.C., United States of America

I have a consistent hatred of the American Enterprise Institute, Heritage Foundation, NRA, the Weekly Standard, Fox News and Roger Ayers, Project for The New American Century and all their supporters.

I love Paul Krugman, Maureen Dowd, the New York Times, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, FDR and the New Deal, PBS and Bill Moyers.