Gun control

[950483]

There is already a legal standard to declare one mentally ill or incompetent and these people are already prohibited from owning or possessing firearms.

Was that an aeroplane?

 

[Industrialsize]

There is already a legal standard to declare one mentally ill or incompetent and these people are already prohibited from owning or possessing firearms.

Trump Overturns a Mental Health Regulation on Gun Purchases

Within his first two months as president, Donald Trump repealed without public display an Obama administration gun regulation that prevented certain individuals with mental health conditions from buying firearms. Prior to Trump’s overturning the rule on February 28, four Democratic senators and an independent who are up for re-election in 2018 had sided with their Republican colleagues by voting to revoke it.
he Social Security Administration finalized the standing rule in December under President Barack Obama. With the regulation, the SSA was required to identify and report to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) individuals who are unable to work because of severe mental impairment and can’t manage their own Social Security financial benefits, and therefore were ineligible to buy guns. The thought was that those certain Social Security recipients could pose a danger to themselves or others.
The repeal is a significant step for gun advocates. The GOP-controlled Senate in mid-February voted in favor of revoking the resolution, 57-43. Democratic Senators Joe Donnelly (Indiana), Heidi Heitkamp (North Dakota), Joe Manchin (West Virginia) and Jon Tester (Montana), along with independent Senator Angus King (Maine), voted with the Republicans. The National Rifle Association applauded the Senate’s decision, calling the existing regulation “Obama’s unconstitutional gun grab.”
http://www.newsweek.com/trump-set-overturn-guns-mental-health-regulation-557237

 

[Chrysippus]

I am still waiting to hear Tight_N_Juicy's comprehensive gun control plan. So far the only person who has put forth a plan is Industriallies, a gun ban and repeal of the 2nd Amendment.

Before we get to guns and gun sales, changes must include
1.) digitization of ATF records and subsequent organization of the data into a database publicly accessible to all.
2,) allowing, without restriction, the CDC to study weapons crime/violenece as psychopathy/sociopathy
and the formulation of psychiatric profiles of perpetrators of weapons violence for use in comprehensive presales background checks of nonmilitary weapons purchasers.
3,) Conversion of ‘shall issue’ to ‘may issue’ gun permits by states that includes a comprehensive pre-sales background check before permit issuance.
4.) Imposing the same limits on gunshow weapons sales that are in place for retail store/online sales, including background checks and waiting periods between purchase and transfer.
5.) Elimination of plea-bargaining for proven weapons crime in the criminal justice system.
And that’s just a start.

 

[BULLDOG00]

Trump Overturns a Mental Health Regulation on Gun Purchases

Within his first two months as president, Donald Trump repealed without public display an Obama administration gun regulation that prevented certain individuals with mental health conditions from buying firearms. Prior to Trump’s overturning the rule on February 28, four Democratic senators and an independent who are up for re-election in 2018 had sided with their Republican colleagues by voting to revoke it.
he Social Security Administration finalized the standing rule in December under President Barack Obama. With the regulation, the SSA was required to identify and report to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) individuals who are unable to work because of severe mental impairment and can’t manage their own Social Security financial benefits, and therefore were ineligible to buy guns. The thought was that those certain Social Security recipients could pose a danger to themselves or others.
The repeal is a significant step for gun advocates. The GOP-controlled Senate in mid-February voted in favor of revoking the resolution, 57-43. Democratic Senators Joe Donnelly (Indiana), Heidi Heitkamp (North Dakota), Joe Manchin (West Virginia) and Jon Tester (Montana), along with independent Senator Angus King (Maine), voted with the Republicans. The National Rifle Association applauded the Senate’s decision, calling the existing regulation “Obama’s unconstitutional gun grab.”
http://www.newsweek.com/trump-set-overturn-guns-mental-health-regulation-557237

More misleading crap from Industriallies... The regulation is unconstitutional and the things you mention are not legal standards for mental illness or incompetence. You want to take grandpa's antique gun collection because his kids manage his finances. You are a sick man.

 

[BULLDOG00]

Before we get to guns and gun sales, changes must include
1.) digitization of ATF records and subsequent organization of the data into a database publicly accessible to all.
2,) allowing, without restriction, the CDC to study weapons crime/violenece as psychopathy/sociopathy
and the formulation of psychiatric profiles of perpetrators of weapons violence for use in comprehensive presales background checks of nonmilitary weapons purchasers.
3,) Conversion of ‘shall issue’ to ‘may issue’ gun permits by states that includes a comprehensive pre-sales background check before permit issuance.
4.) Imposing the same limits on gunshow weapons sales that are in place for retail store/online sales, including background checks and waiting periods between purchase and transfer.
5.) Elimination of plea-bargaining for proven weapons crime in the criminal justice system.
And that’s just a start.

1. What data?
2. Fine, as long as they have funding and aren't wasting tax payer funds.
3. Unconstitutional. Gun permits are issued at the state level. A comprehensive pre-sales background check before permit issuance is already done. I suspect many of the alt-lefters here would not pass.
4. Already in place.
5. That is the domain of prosecutors and judges. You want to take away their tools.

 

[Max_Polo]

I'm sure someone will promptly label him alt-right or something, but I think Henninger is spot on with this analysis.

GUN CONTROL AFTER LAS VEGAS

Anyone who disagrees with the liberals’ default position on guns is deplorable.

A senior lawyer for CBS destroyed her career after the Las Vegas massacre by posting on Facebook that “I’m actually not even sympathetic bc country music fans often are republican gun toters.” Naturally, CBS kicked her off the mother ship.

Consider the logic of her reductio ad absurdum conclusion. She justifies her withdrawal of sympathy by reasoning, “If they wouldn’t do anything when children were murdered I have no hope that the Repugs will do the right thing.”

The right thing, of course, is gun control. Indeed, the unrepulsive half of her Facebook post aligns her views with the editorial page of the New York Times , though I don’t think the Times is referring yet to Republicans as the Repugs.

Gun control is by now the oldest, most sterile, wheel-spinning issue in American politics. It has nowhere to go, but it keeps coming back. Even Democratic politicians have concluded that trying to push gun control beyond federal legislation already on the books is a waste of the party’s energies.

Nonetheless, on Monday night’s edition of “Democrats After Dark,” virtually every comedian— Jimmy Kimmel, Stephen Colbert, James Corden, Seth Meyers, Trevor Noah —made pleas for more gun control.

A podcast host for the Center for American Progress asked Hillary Clinton a rhetorical question about whether the National Rifle Association is complicit in gun violence. She outputted: “Of course they are. This is nothing but pure unadulterated greed motivated by people who want to sell as many guns as they can.”

Put differently, anyone who disagrees with the absolutist liberal default position on banning guns is deplorable.

Once again—this may be among the reasons the Democrats lost the 2016 election, have lost control of most state governments and could lose Senate seats next year.

The NRA and pro-gun sentiment doesn’t defeat them. What defeats them is that their compulsive moral condescension impedes their ability to see the country clearly.

Because this debate comes up every time a male brain convinces itself that it should murder masses of people, the opinion polls frequently plumb American opinion about it. The findings are more complicated than what passes for public debate about guns.

A Pew research headline in January 2011: “No shift toward gun control after Tucson shootings. Most point to troubled individuals, not broader societal problems.”

Pew found this in 2014: “Two years after Newtown, a shift in favor of gun rights. More say guns do more to protect than put people at risk.” This summer Pew published another significant survey that again reveals complex division and ambivalence about controlling guns.

The Roper Center has also compiled data on public attitudes toward gun control after incidents such as the Las Vegas massacre. For liberals, the results run counter to their expectations: “Although high-profile incidents can increase support briefly, the cumulative effect of the increasing number of mass shootings does not appear to be higher support for restrictions on guns.”

The highest support ever recorded for banning handguns was 60%—in 1959. As publicity for high-profile shootings rose, the pro-ban number ran downhill, landing at 26% in 2014. I used to think letting people carry a personal weapon was a bad idea. After Orlando and the Bataclan theater massacre in Paris, I don’t think that anymore.

Roper reports one other startling development. Most people no longer think the government is capable of doing anything about this sort of violence: “In a 2014 AP/GfK Knowledge Networks poll, just 8% of the country were extremely or very confident that the U.S. government can effectively minimize the threat Americans face from mass shootings, while 25% were moderately confident and 63% were not too or not at all confident.”

Why do progressives and the media keep plowing this ocean? Years ago, there was a best-selling book called “Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus.” Borrowing the book’s title, if not its theory, one may posit: Republicans are from Mars, Democrats are from Venus.

This is not to suggest, as former California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger once did, that Democrats are what he called “girlie men.” It is to suggest that gun control is really a proxy for a political and social divide on the broad, bedrock issue of security.

Whether that security applies to one’s person, home, neighborhood, city or the nation, progressives and conservatives see humankind and the world it inhabits through a different mental lens. Progressives embrace the benign, while conservatives fear the malign. Liberals say, give peace a chance. Conservatives say, Annie get your gun.

But on this issue, the center in the U.S. has shifted. Conventional Democratic liberalism admitted the reality of security needs, an accommodation being displaced by a progressivism that is largely disdainful of security. So the division is more acute. No matter: The chance that the American people will ever disarm remains zero. Spin on.

 

[950483]

2,) allowing, without restriction, the CDC to study weapons crime/violenece as psychopathy/sociopathy
and the formulation of psychiatric profiles of perpetrators of weapons violence for use in comprehensive presales background checks of nonmilitary weapons purchasers.

I would like them to also profile anyone who owns a gun. If the majority of Americans do not own a gun, then what is it makes some decide that they need one?, the people arguing pro guns often don't seem to have the healthiest outlook on life.

 

[Max_Polo]

the people arguing pro guns often don't seem to have the healthiest outlook on life.

Evidence for this?

 

[Industrialsize]

1. What data?

This data:
Here's how cops actually trace a gun
Say there's a murder. Blood everywhere, a dead guy on the floor. The cops come in with their yellow tape, chalk line, the little booties, cameras, swabs, the fingerprint dust. One of them finds a gun on the floor. The gun! He lifts it with his pinkie, examines it, takes note of the serial number. Back at the station, they run a trace on the gun. A name pops up. It's the wife! Or: It's the business partner! It's somebody's gun, and this is so exciting because now they know who did it.

Except—no. You are watching too much TV. It doesn't work like that........
“It's a shoestring budget,” says Charlie, who runs the center. “It's not 10,000 agents and a big sophisticated place. It's a bunch of friggin' boxes. All half-ass records. We have about 50 ATF employees. And all the rest are basically the ladies. The ladies that live in West Virginia—and they got a job. There's a huge amount of labor being put into looking through microfilm.”

I want to ask about the microfilm—microfilm?—but it's hard to get a word in. He's already gone three rounds on the whiteboard, scribbling, erasing, illustrating some of the finer points of gun tracing, of which there are many, in large part due to the limitations imposed upon this place. For example, no computer. The National Tracing Center is not allowed to have centralized computer data.


“That's the big no-no,” says Charlie.

That's been a federal law, thanks to the NRA, since 1986: No searchable database of America's gun owners. So people here have to use paper, sort through enormous stacks of forms and record books that gun stores are required to keep and to eventually turn over to the feds when requested. It's kind of like a library in the old days—but without the card catalog. They can use pictures of paper, like microfilm (they recently got the go-ahead to convert the microfilm to PDFs), as long as the pictures of paper are not searchable. You have to flip through and read. No searching by gun owner. No searching by name.
http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-how-cops-actually-trace-a-gun-2016-8

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-how-cops-actually-trace-a-gun-2016-8

 

[BULLDOG00]

This data:
Here's how cops actually trace a gun
Say there's a murder. Blood everywhere, a dead guy on the floor. The cops come in with their yellow tape, chalk line, the little booties, cameras, swabs, the fingerprint dust. One of them finds a gun on the floor. The gun! He lifts it with his pinkie, examines it, takes note of the serial number. Back at the station, they run a trace on the gun. A name pops up. It's the wife! Or: It's the business partner! It's somebody's gun, and this is so exciting because now they know who did it.

Except—no. You are watching too much TV. It doesn't work like that........
“It's a shoestring budget,” says Charlie, who runs the center. “It's not 10,000 agents and a big sophisticated place. It's a bunch of friggin' boxes. All half-ass records. We have about 50 ATF employees. And all the rest are basically the ladies. The ladies that live in West Virginia—and they got a job. There's a huge amount of labor being put into looking through microfilm.”

I want to ask about the microfilm—microfilm?—but it's hard to get a word in. He's already gone three rounds on the whiteboard, scribbling, erasing, illustrating some of the finer points of gun tracing, of which there are many, in large part due to the limitations imposed upon this place. For example, no computer. The National Tracing Center is not allowed to have centralized computer data.


“That's the big no-no,” says Charlie.

That's been a federal law, thanks to the NRA, since 1986: No searchable database of America's gun owners. So people here have to use paper, sort through enormous stacks of forms and record books that gun stores are required to keep and to eventually turn over to the feds when requested. It's kind of like a library in the old days—but without the card catalog. They can use pictures of paper, like microfilm (they recently got the go-ahead to convert the microfilm to PDFs), as long as the pictures of paper are not searchable. You have to flip through and read. No searching by gun owner. No searching by name.
http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-how-cops-actually-trace-a-gun-2016-8

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-how-cops-actually-trace-a-gun-2016-8

The Feds are not allowed to have a gun registration database for obvious Constitutional reasons, but you don't give a fuck about most of the Constitution.

 

[Max_Polo]

No searchable database of America's gun owners.

Not entirely correct. And, without context sounds outrageous, even to me. A little research reveals though that the FOPA was passed in response to prior ATF abuses of law-abiding citizens. Not a huge Wikipedia fan, but here's some reasonabel information there:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act

And despite FOPA There Are Some Limited Government Gun Databases

In addition to the local authorities who may disregard the local law we also know that the ATF keeps at least 5 databases ofspecific firearms and their owners to include:

•Multiple Sale Reports. Over 460,000 (as of 2003) Multiple Sales reports (ATF F 3310.4 – a registration record with specific firearms and owner name and address – increasing by about 140,000 per year). Reported as 4.2 million records in 2010.
•Suspect Guns. All guns suspected of being used for criminal purposes but not recovered by law enforcement. This database includes (ATF's own examples), individuals purchasing large quantities of firearms, and dealers with improper record keeping. May include guns observed by law enforcement in an estate, or at a gun show, or elsewhere. Reported as 34,807 in 2010.
•Traced Guns. Over 4 million detail records from all traces since inception. This is a registration record which includes the personal information of the first retail purchaser, along with the identity of the selling dealer.
•Out of Business Records. Data is manually collected from paper Out-of-Business records (or input from computer records) and entered into the trace system by ATF. These are registration records which include name and address, make, model, serial and caliber of the firearm(s), as well as data from the 4473 form – in digital or image format. In March, 2010, ATF reported receiving several hundred million records since 1968.
•Theft Guns. Firearms reported as stolen to ATF. Contained 330,000 records in 2010. Contains only thefts from licensed dealers and interstate carriers (optional). Does not have an interface to the FBI's National Crime Information Center (NCIC) theft data base, where the majority of stolen, lost and missing firearms are reported.

 

[BULLDOG00]

I would like them to also profile anyone who owns a gun. If the majority of Americans do not own a gun, then what is it makes some decide that they need one?, the people arguing pro guns often don't seem to have the healthiest outlook on life.

Lets create a psychological profile on every British person, now that would be some scary stuff. It is amazing how sick and authoritarian you Brits are.

 

[BULLDOG00]

Not entirely correct. And, without context sounds outrageous, even to me. A little research reveals though that the FOPA was passed in response to prior ATF abuses of law-abiding citizens. Not a huge Wikipedia fan, but here's some reasonabel information there:

Industriallies is a master of lies, misinformation, and misleading propaganda but at least he is honest about his desire to ban all guns and eliminate the 2nd Amendment.

 

[Industrialsize]

Lets create a psychological profile on every British person, now that would be some scary stuff. It is amazing how sick and authoritarian you Brits are.

Do you know how to have a political discussion without ad hominem attacks?

 

[Chrysippus]

his desire to ban all guns and eliminate the 2nd Amendment.

Can you show me the post in which @Industrialsize advocated the repeal/elimination of the second amendment?

 

[950483]

Evidence for this?

Yes, that's what I want, that is what I said in my post, - evidence of this, because gun ownership does seem to be linked to paranoia, self-interest, fear, and various other kinds of cowardly and negative shit.

 

[BULLDOG00]

Do you know how to have a political discussion without ad hominem attacks?

Look at the post I responded too. Was that not an ad hominem attack? Of course you won't call out a member of the alt-left.

 

[950483]

Lets create a psychological profile on every British person, now that would be some scary stuff. It is amazing how sick and authoritarian you Brits are.

Are you still looking for that aeroplane? .
Has a British person stolen your scone?

 

[BULLDOG00]

Yes, that's what I want, that is what I said in my post, - evidence of this, because gun ownership does seem to be linked to paranoia, self-interest, fear, and various other kinds of cowardly and negative shit.

Industriallies will be posting a rebuke of your shortly for your ad hominem attacks.

 

[Max_Polo]

Do you know how to have a political discussion without ad hominem attacks?

Whataboutism at its finest.