Gun control

phonehome

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And while the last ONE used just handguns this is the exception

The one before used shotgun, being how he managed to kill 10 people lets assume he was using 00 buckshot, that is pretty darn lethal at 25 yards even 50 and while shotguns do not have the "can't miss spread" that some would want you to believe it is like a foot or so out to 25 yards so if the shooter gets off 4 or 5 rounds and you are talking 9 "projectiles" per shot that 1rst grade teacher with a 38 revolver or even a 9MM auto is at severe dis-advantage to say nothing about if that shooter has an AR-15 type rifle like most of the rest have had and can easily in mere seconds spray more than dozen extremely lethal 223 rounds in the general direction of the 1rst grade teacher and one round a "lucky hit" from even 50 yards can kill or otherwise take you out of the equation
 
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Brodie888

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A simpler point: Teachers aren't paid enough to teach. Why would a sane teacher accept the additional responsibility of defending the class they partially have to finance out-of-pocket with both their lives and lethal force? That's a lot to ask for less than $50k/year, plus accepting full responsibility for your kids during the day, yet having no real power to actually do anything for (or about) them.

Are they going to offer these teachers additional "danger pay?" If so, where is that money coming from exactly? Chicago can't seem to afford textbooks and calculators for summer session. That seems pretty basic. So, if they can't do that, how are they going to buy guns n' ammo and then properly train these people, not to mention compensate them adequately for both teaching and playing good cop on the side?
Yep. That was my earlier point.
 

Brodie888

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Shot placement.

Have you ever been a student of an advanced shooting school?


If you're happy to go head to head against an AR15 with a revolver then good for you.

But why do you think most teachers let alone schools around the world don't need guns for defense but we do?
 

TexanStar

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Not from that schmuck. Gov Abbot made some decent remarks.

Texas published their action plan (the outcome from the roundtable discussions they had). Obviously no moves to ban firearm possession in this state (duh), but there's several policy changes in here that I think are definite steps in the right direction. Some require legislative changes so we'll see how well they get on the ball with implementation.

https://gov.texas.gov/uploads/files/press/School_Safety_Action_Plan_05302018.pdf
 

Nudistpig

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If you're happy to go head to head against an AR15 with a revolver then good for you.

But why do you think most teachers let alone schools around the world don't need guns for defense but we do?

Work it out. Revolvers are useless. 100% useless. Even those trained to use them well shoot not the target often and frequently kill or injure not the target. A teacher shooting that off in a crowded room is idiocy. Only folks who have zero experience with firearms think handguns are useful at all. Most handgun deaths are owners in their own homes. 2015 unintended shootings in 2017. Toddlers shoot people often. Dogs. There were two separate dog shootings of people recent years past. I have owned guns all my life learned to shoot at 6 (go Dad) and live one of the highest gun violence hoods downtown Toronto. Number of guns? Zero. They are at mom's locked in the gun safe. Ammo is in a separate room in a separate safe. What am I going to hunt in a major city?
 
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Nudistpig

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And while the last ONE used just handguns this is the exception

The one before used shotgun, being how he managed to kill 10 people lets assume he was using 00 buckshot, that is pretty darn lethal at 25 yards even 50 and while shotguns do not have the "can't miss spread" that some would want you to believe it is like a foot or so out to 25 yards so if the shooter gets off 4 or 5 rounds and you are talking 9 "projectiles" per shot that 1rst grade teacher with a 38 revolver or even a 9MM auto is at severe dis-advantage to say nothing about if that shooter has an AR-15 type rifle like most of the rest have had and can easily in mere seconds spray more than dozen extremely lethal 223 rounds in the general direction of the 1rst grade teacher and one round a "lucky hit" from even 50 yards can kill or otherwise take you out of the equation

30 kids in the classroom. Power down. Hundreds in the hall. How to find shooter how to target shooter shooter already knows which rooms are armed suicide mission.
 

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Only folks who have zero experience with firearms think handguns are useful at all. Most handgun deaths are owners in their own homes. 2015 unintended shootings in 2017. Toddlers shoot people often. Dogs. There were two separate dog shootings of people recent years past.

I dunno that the numbers bear this out. For people who only own one gun, handguns are about 3 times the prevalence of rifles. Similarly, when looking at firearm homicides (not suicides or accidental death), handguns are used about 3 times as often as rifles (actually more than 3 times as often).

What that says to me is that in the big picture, when attempting homicide, handguns are every bit as effective as rifles.
 
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Chrysippus

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Work it out. Revolvers are useless. 100% useless. Even those trained to use them well shoot not the target often and frequently kill or injure not the target. A teacher shooting that off in a crowded room is idiocy. Only folks who have zero experience with firearms think handguns are useful at all. Most handgun deaths are owners in their own homes. 2015 unintended shootings in 2017. Toddlers shoot people often. Dogs. There were two separate dog shootings of people recent years past. I have owned guns all my life learned to shoot at 6 (go Dad) and live one of the highest gun violence hoods downtown Toronto. Number of guns? Zero. They are at mom's locked in the gun safe. Ammo is in a separate room in a separate safe. What am I going to hunt in a major city?

The following statements from nudistpig are unwarranted opinion:
1. Revolvers are useless. 100% useless.
Revolvers are not useless, and he offers no supporting evidence/data for this assertion.

2. A teacher shooting that off in a crowded room is idiocy. Is ‘that’ a revolver or a handgun or a bazooka? NP doesn’t distinguish. Improper pronoun reference—but what would I expect from the likes of np?

3. Only folks who have zero experience with firearms think handguns are useful at all.
Sorry, not the opinion of trained and qualified policemen I took my home-defense courses from. But the np thinks he’s is his own delphic oracle.

4. What am I going to hunt in a major city? You’re not, so why ask a rhetorical question?

Your post is opinion, not fact—or remotely informed.
 

Nudistpig

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The following statements from nudistpig are unwarranted opinion:
1. Revolvers are useless. 100% useless.
Revolvers are not useless, and he offers no supporting evidence/data for this assertion.

2. A teacher shooting that off in a crowded room is idiocy. Is ‘that’ a revolver or a handgun or a bazooka? NP doesn’t distinguish. Improper pronoun reference—but what would I expect from the likes of np?

3. Only folks who have zero experience with firearms think handguns are useful at all.
Sorry, not the opinion of trained and qualified policemen I took my home-defense courses from. But the np thinks he’s is his own delphic oracle.

4. What am I going to hunt in a major city? You’re not, so why ask a rhetorical question?

Your post is opinion, not fact—or remotely informed.

No professional with a brain says handguns in classrooms are a good idea and your self assurance on this most ridiculous assertion is proof of some kind of desire to be entirely wrong. It's a terrible idea through and through and the notion you would even consider it demonstrates an inability to reason critically. No, the solution to guns is not always more guns and no, finding the magic classroom with the best trained teacher with the best drill so Rambo High Takedown Edition can happen is the worst hypothetical to rest your laurels on. Stop. I know you have to try to make this into your defense of a ammosexual love of the second amendment or whatever it is you are doing but please, come up with better bullshit. This is not hamburger hill don't die on it.

Yes, cops are not included in the discussion as they are required by law in most jurisdictions and no, cops hate the idea of folks with guns for safety overall. Especially the Black ones. Remember Philando Castille? Consumers who have handguns overwhelmingly kill themselves or others. That is a fact. The number of crimes solved by shooting at stuff blindly is next to zero. I'm sure you have an example ready but the stats are the stats. Handguns are for crimes, either planned or accidental. Except in the South, where a toddler of 2 can get into an unlocked car and open an unlocked glove compartment and get an unlocked revolver and shoot himself and have the cops say no one could have prevented this. This is what you're defending. I'm glad you took the time to point out the fact that cops have guns. Surely I missed that. What is the name of the cop what department and was this an nra program? What evidence based knowledge did the man who has a HS education and who is not an expert in home safety at all because cops aren't trained in that. I am the oracle of Dodona get into it.

I'll point out you took a don't shoot your foot off course on how to keep dangerous men out of your house from officer barbrady offering no evidence but your own humble estimation of his munificence and take his opinion at word when he is not a expert in home safety, unless you care to share his name and credentials. How long was this course? Was it free or paid? How much if so? How many modules? What did the training pedagogy consist of? What were your outcomes and how were you evaluated? Did it give you any new rights or permissions? It seems the oracle of anecdote needs to spend more time on his evidence and less trying desperately to show you have knowledge of classical antiquity which is not relevant here anyway.

Thanks for answering the question. I have owned a nightclub and worked in the underbelly. That was gallows humour and the point is that handguns are for crimes. We determined this already, either ones planned or caused by idiots with tools. My firearms experience includes my family of hunters of course, the rcmp, the experts at cfb gagetown (that's army here son) and my award for marksmanship is for 99% on standard five bulls with a .22 at 100 yards. There are two of those .22 and I have a .303 from WWI. I've fired a grenade launcher and heavy artillery which was fun but no expertise there. As I said, these are hunting guns and I am not hunting much since my Dad died.

Which firearms are you proficient in, what do you own, and why have you no evidence? Your post is opinion, it's as far as I can tell you being upset you had to read something I wrote and spilling the first chunks of travesty in your brain out on a page. Look your penis is bigger and you're not gay. You win. Just don't talk about this topic unless you have some data and some actual experience to relate beyond the police officer told me not to leave open windows. I use a bat to ward off problems it works very well. Only once here in 10 years but he took it good. Oh, yes, I've had a gun pulled on me three times and all three times my mouth got me out of it. But if I had actually been shot you'd complain I didn't die so it doesn't count.
 

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I dunno that the numbers bear this out. For people who only own one gun, handguns are about 3 times the prevalence of rifles. Similarly, when looking at firearm homicides (not suicides or accidental death), handguns are used about 3 times as often as rifles (actually more than 3 times as often).

What that says to me is that in the big picture, when attempting homicide, handguns are every bit as effective as rifles.

OK, this is true however I am not trying to argue that these weapons aren't good murder tools, I'm trying to argue they are not useful for self defense and the stats bear that out entirely. Some of which are in the murder column.
 

Nudistpig

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The following statements from nudistpig are unwarranted opinion:
1. Revolvers are useless. 100% useless.
Revolvers are not useless, and he offers no supporting evidence/data for this assertion.

2. A teacher shooting that off in a crowded room is idiocy. Is ‘that’ a revolver or a handgun or a bazooka? NP doesn’t distinguish. Improper pronoun reference—but what would I expect from the likes of np?

3. Only folks who have zero experience with firearms think handguns are useful at all.
Sorry, not the opinion of trained and qualified policemen I took my home-defense courses from. But the np thinks he’s is his own delphic oracle.

4. What am I going to hunt in a major city? You’re not, so why ask a rhetorical question?

Your post is opinion, not fact—or remotely informed.

You also neglected to include the context of my comment and the quoted post it responded to obviously because you think removing the context is logical. If you're not going to read before you spout your inanities and insist on uncharitable readings in the attempt to show your superior man knowledge of weaponry all the while deciding to No True Scotsman handguns into classes because obviously that's an idea we need right along with eating radium and drinking paint. But no, you don't need to follow any rules because you, philosophe nouveau, have found a fatal flaw in the argument that handguns don't protect homeowners or students despite the pile of bodies to the contrary and scant evidence that they do. IT'S over 2000 people shot dead of home safety lessons in 2017. TWO THOUSAND. Are you completely and utterly bereft of common sense? Now you better tell me you got that gun because otherwise I will think you not only stupid, but weak. Also, you shouldn't have a gun. You're going to shoot someone you love.
 

Klingsor

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You also neglected to include the context of my comment and the quoted post it responded to obviously because you think removing the context is logical. If you're not going to read before you spout your inanities and insist on uncharitable readings in the attempt to show your superior man knowledge of weaponry all the while deciding to No True Scotsman handguns into classes because obviously that's an idea we need right along with eating radium and drinking paint. But no, you don't need to follow any rules because you, philosophe nouveau, have found a fatal flaw in the argument that handguns don't protect homeowners or students despite the pile of bodies to the contrary and scant evidence that they do. IT'S over 2000 people shot dead of home safety lessons in 2017. TWO THOUSAND. Are you completely and utterly bereft of common sense? Now you better tell me you got that gun because otherwise I will think you not only stupid, but weak. Also, you shouldn't have a gun. You're going to shoot someone you love.

You might better served arguing against people who actually disagree with you. :rolleyes:
 

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You might better served arguing against people who actually disagree with you. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry you don't think Chryshippus disagrees with me, or you think I am responding to you. He default disagrees with me. Or am I missing something obvious?
 

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I'm sorry you don't think Chryshippus disagrees with me, or you think I am responding to you. He default disagrees with me. Or am I missing something obvious?

My point was that neither Brodie888 nor Chrysippus, so far as I can tell, have advocated the proliferation of handguns (or guns of any sort). Ultimately, then, aren't you all on the same page?

But hey, I've been wrong before.
 

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Brody I agree with was adding to his comment, there is no disagreement, the stats I added corroborate his suggestion that a handgun isn't effective against an AR-15 assault rifle modded for auto fire (the bullets fire so fast they boil your insides) and that somehow handguns are needed everywhere in the USA yet nowhere else. I shared how many people die from accidents in an effort to highlight the Good Guys vs Bad Guys stuff is nonsense. Almost never do handguns stop crime in civilian hands.

Chryshippus's previous stance is immaterial as I assure you, he is incapable of passing by anything I post without issuing some grandiose and silly rebuttal. I have made it into a blood sport. You can read it fwiw. He's made a great victory by arguing for something that has no data to support it and the absurdity of armed teachers. That can never ever ever be a rational solution and the fact that he is even entertaining it as a gedanken to prove me wrong is absurd.
 

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Almost never do handguns stop crime in civilian hands.

If by this you mean that armed civilians rarely stumble across a crime in progress and use their gun to stop it, you're probably correct. I imagine this is because most criminals try to commit their crimes out of sight of the general public.

But how many stalkers give up and stop stalking when they see their victim post photos on facebook of practicing at the firing range, and getting her concealed-carry license?

How many home-invasion/robberies never happen in poverty-stricken neighborhoods, because it's known on the block that a homeowner is armed?

How many sex workers aren't murdered because they carry a pistol in their purse?

The answers are unknowable, but the questions are worth asking.

You people who disparage private gun ownership always seem to come from progressive countries, where I'm guessing the police may not actively enforce racism, sexism, hatred of LGBT people and oppression of the poor. You don't understand what it's like here, so you don't understand that some people truly have no one to protect them but themselves.