Gun control

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by ital8, Jan 14, 2007.

  1. ital8

    ital8 New Member

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    I've been recently reading in the newspaper that some cities in America(Baltimore, New Orleans, and Newark, NJ to name a few) are dealing with a rise in homicides mostly due to gun violence. At the same time, there was or still is (not quite sure) a seriel killer in England who was/is stalking on prostitutes. When I was watching the news about that ordeal a commentator mentioned how serial killers are more of an American issue. British police don't even carry guns for that matter. That got me thinking to why America has such a higher gun violence than other industrialized nations.

    I know some of you may be saying its because it is so easy to buy and carry a weapon in America. But some parts of this country that have lack laws about gun ownership have lower crime rates than other parts of the country. Canada has a much lower gun violence rate than America, yet Canadians are permitted to buy guns.

    Some may say it is because of violence on TV, music, movies, etc. But most industrialized nations watch and listen to the same things that Americans listen to.

    Growing up in NJ my whole life, I always watched the NY news. I remember how atrocious the crime rate was in NYC in the early nineties. I believe in 1990 the homicide rate hit a record of close to 2,000. Now 17 years later it has dropped to somewhere in the 560-ish range. The lowest since the early sixties. It has steadily dropped (although recently risen slightly) over the past decade. Many say this is due to new and more efficient police tactics. Mayor Guiliani cleaned up Time Square, Grand Central Station, and got rid of the squeegie men who constantly harrassed drivers coming in and out of the city. But as great as this accomplishment is, the murder rate is still much higher than compared to London, which has about the same population. Unfortunately, I don't have any statistics to back me up, but I remember reading somewhere that it was lower. If someone can confirm this then that would be great.

    But what I'm trying to get at is what causes such a high spike in gun violence in America? I have watched Bowling for Columbine. I didn't completely buy it, though. When Michael Moore went to Toronto to show the viewers what a ghetto looked like, he showed an average looking area of the city. I've been to Toronto twice, and I have seen much worse areas than the one that he showed. Also, is it really true that Torontonians leave their doors unlocked day and night?

    The only rational reason I can think of is poverty. There are some parts of America that are extremely safe. I know some who leave their keys in their cars without any fear of it being stolen. Murder is unheard of in certain towns. But on the flipside there are other areas of this country where gun violence is a daily occurance.

    Some thoughts?
     
  2. Rikter8

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    First of all....

    Guns don't go off by themselves. The gun is only the means to the murder.
    It's the person BEHIND the firearm that is at Fault.
    Gun Control Laws need to be re-vamped for the law abiding citizens.

    Why is there high crime rates with Firearms?

    1. Ease of use. You can be a total weakling and put down the biggest of bruits.

    2. TV shows, movies, and all the hype: Kids see this, and try to re-inact on it.

    3. LACK OF TRAINING or experience with firearms.
    I laugh every time I see some "Gangsta" pointing his gun sideways - what a joke.
    Theyre supposed to be these big bad boys... and they point the gun sideways so it doesnt have as much kick.
    Pussies.

    4. POOR PARENTAL mentoring, upbringing, and LACK of care of their firearms.

    5. Un-equal gun control laws. A criminal can get a gun off the street in seconds. Law abiding citizens must wait a period of time before they are authorized to carry a handgun.

    6. NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE SHOOT BACK! - Start shooting back at these dumb shits and less will be on the streets.
    Don't duck and run. Ready, AIM, Fire!
     
  3. B_dxjnorto

    B_dxjnorto New Member

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    I'm not a fan of guns. Most people aren't trained. Most normal people won't be able to use them with deadly force in a bad situation. They are more likely to be injured by their own firearms than they are to foil a robbery or a carjacking.

    A friend's three year old nephew put a bullet in his brain at a friend's home during a party during an unsupervised moment. He didn't die. He'll be mentally retarded for the rest of his life.

    Toy guns look so much like real guns now, people like probation officers won't even let those they supervise keep toy guns in the house. They can't tell the difference. Kids can't tell the difference.

    But the right to bear arms is written into the U.S. constitution so any gun control laws require a constitutional amendment I believe. On the other hand, the argument that gun control laws will result in guns being only in the hands of criminals is valid too, but I don't know if that is worse than the trigger happiness of a broader population.
     
  4. viking1

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    Poverty does not help the violence any but the others lower crime areas of
    the world you mentioned also have poverty. Do not let anyone tell you that they are any better off poverty wise.

    A lot of it is environmental conditions. People raised in an inner city environ
    are more likely to be in gangs, on drugs, and so on. It is a vicious circle.
    Some cities are worse than others. Those with a high drug trade like D.C. or Richmond Va are usually worse. Poor parenting is also a big contributor and that is also more likely in a big city ghetto environ.
     
  5. SpeedoGuy

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    My opinion: Guns or otherwise, America is a culture that thrives on violence, real or latent. In some areas its covered under a veneer of civility but in other areas it boils over into high visibility. But its always there.
     
  6. B_dxjnorto

    B_dxjnorto New Member

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    America. Do you mean the U.S.? Violence is definitely a common component of the darker aspects of human nature.
     
  7. Sklar

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    Gun control is hitting what you aim at.
     
  8. Wyldgusechaz

    Wyldgusechaz New Member

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    We have a lot of mental illness, untreated, in America. Guns are not inherently bad, rikter is right, they don't go off by themselves.

    Also the entertainment media substitutes violence for sex. The average kid in America has seen a 1000 murders on TV by the teen years. Thats not very healthy IMO.
     
  9. B_big dirigible

    B_big dirigible New Member

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    Partying with guns? Sounds like somebody was already mentally retarded. But you'll blame the hardware, no doubt.
     
  10. B_big dirigible

    B_big dirigible New Member

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    Go ahead, blame it all on poor people. Everybody does. They're such ideal victims of those who jump to conclusions.
     
  11. ital8

    ital8 New Member

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    I didn't mean that on a personal note. I'm sure there are some very good, honest, decent poor people. But let's face it, most violent crime occurs in poor neighbors. I would much rather walk around mid-town Manhattan at night as opposed to the South Bronx.
     
  12. OKFarmer

    OKFarmer Member

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    I grew up in a household that didn't have a gun. We weren't taught that they were bad to have, but neither were we taught gun safety. The funny thing is both of my parents grew up on farms and had shot many times growing up.

    If you hadn't guessed it yet, I do live on a farm. I can't imagine what it would be like to live out here without firearms. Abandoned dogs kill stock, so they have to be put down or at least encouraged not to come back.

    Multiple times out here I've had to choose between putting stock down or letting it die slowly and painfully. I'm glad I was able to end the animals suffering.

    The nearest law enforcement for us with jurisdiction is 30 miles. I wouldn't want my family unprotected from criminal activity. A crew of "blacktoppers" came around offering to pave driveways with "spare" blacktop. The next day they would come back and demand more money for a job with the threat of violence. Its funny how when they came to my house on the original run, and were met with a person holding a 12 gauge, they decided not to bug us.

    All of our firearms are kept very responsibly with gun locks or in gun safes that the children can't access. When they are mature enough to learn to fire a firearm they will be allowed to. Until then, any toy gun has to be treated as if it were a loaded real gun.
     
  13. B_denis11

    B_denis11 New Member

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    Does anyone know how to start a NEW thread on here? I'm clueless. Dennis
     
  14. B_big dirigible

    B_big dirigible New Member

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    All right, obviously you farmers have no idea what the numbers are.

    Nobody knows how many guns there are in America. Estimates start at 200 million. If we're all so trigger-happy, we should have millions of gun homicides every week. But we don't. BATF knows of nearly a million machine guns, perfectly legal, and in civilian hands. But nobody's ever been shot with one of those, either. Those are real machine guns, not what the press breathlessly calls "assault rifles."

    Just under a million guns change hands in the US every month. That estimate comes from calls from gun stores to the NICS (National Instant Check System). That includes new and used guns. Nobody knows how many are sold privately. A private seller can't use the NICS even if he wants to.

    It is impossible for anyone but the rich and famous to get handgun licenses in New York City. The NYC police believe that there are at least a million illegal handguns in the city. These are not necessarily in the hands of criminals, but are kept by small businessmen such as diamond merchants and pawnbrokers to protect their businesses and their employees from thugs. (Note that they do not have to shoot anyone for protection to be effective. Recall the Miami rape cases - rapes dropped by about 85% after it became known that a small percentage of would-be victims were armed, and it happened without there being any dead bodies lying around.)

    Gun deaths in the US have been slowly declining since a peak in the '70s. The last published figures showed just under 30,000 annually. That's everything - police shooting bank robbers, women shooting rapists, turf war shootouts, gangland rubouts, hunting accidents, etc. Over 20,000 of them are suicides, most of those old men in failing health with no families. The 30,000 figure was released by the Center for Disease Control, a genuine government office which has been infiltrated by anti-gun zealots who have been funding junk-science studies which purport to show that guns are plotting to murder us all while we sleep. (I exaggerate only slightly. Dr Kellerman's numerous papers are the creme de la creme of junk science and bogus statistics. Most of these appeared in the New England Journal of Medicine and are not online. Kellerman is a buddy of the disgraced Prof. Bellesiles, who was encouraged to resign for fudging data in a gun-control book which some socialist leftoid professors had already awarded the Bancroft Prize in American History - it was in all the papers, and for quite a while; huge embarrassment all around). The situation was so bad that Congress estimated how much money CDC was wasting on that stuff and axed its budget accordingly. So I don't think the CDC fudged the death toll downwards.

    So far as America being a "violent society" - the rate of knife murders in Mexico exceeds the murder rate with all weapons in the US. So they get around that by limiting the stats to "industrialized" countries. Unfortunately for them that includes Russia, which has a much higher homicide rate than the US, so they just lie about Russia. In fact the US comes in about average if you don't try to fudge the numbers around by deciding if a country is "industrialized" or not. Re Canada vs. the US, the famous study comparing Portland and Vancouver comes to mind.

    Other favorite ploys are to pretend that all violence is "gun violence". Most homicides don't involve firearms of any sort. Blunt objects are still the favorite, followed by pointed objects. Also vital is the pretence that guns are bad and nothing good can come of them. Even the rabidly anti-gun Reno justice department admitted to at least tens of thousands of legitimate defensive uses of firearms every year. Here's a little factoid for you - in the US, a woman somewhere uses a firearm to stop a rape or sexual assault over 560 times every day. Note - this does not mean 560 dead rapist wannabees every day. It doesn't even mean that 560 are shot, or even fired at. They tend to lost interest in rape and run away when the gun becomes visible. Do you want to tell 560 women every day that no, sorry, we need more gun control, and you'll just have to lie back and take it? Screw that.
     
  15. B_big dirigible

    B_big dirigible New Member

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    Now now,don't sell yourself short. Go the the forum you want to post the new thread in - say, Et Cetera - it's at the top of this page, where it says
    LPSG.ORG > Discussion Forums > Et Cetera, Et Cetera > Gun control
    Click on Et cetera Et Cetera and you'll go there. Then the box for "New Thread" should be obvious.
     
  16. B_big dirigible

    B_big dirigible New Member

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    So the usual tactic is to eliminate "cheap" guns, thereby leaving those poor who aren't homicidal criminals disarmed. But who gives a shit, they're only poor people. (The poor are the major victims of violent crime, not necessarily the major perpetrators.) Nobody has ever demonstrated that gun control laws disarm the criminally inclined, as the Congress recently found to its embarrassment when the question of renewing the "assault weapon" ban came up a few years ago. Lacking any evidence at all that it worked, they sensibly didn't renew it.

    Any law which you see touted as eliminating "junk guns" or, even better, "Saturday Night Specials", is a law aimed squarely at disarming the poor, regardless of criminal affiliation.

    You did know that the Gun Control Act of 1968 was meant to make it difficult for the Black Panthers to get guns, didn't you? The pious noises about Bobby Kennedy et al were almost certainly a smoke screen to disguise the racist roots of the whole gun control movement.
     
  17. B_dxjnorto

    B_dxjnorto New Member

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    Big D, you really seem like you know what you are talking about. What is the reason we hear that gun violence is much less in Japan and Europe?
     
  18. ital8

    ital8 New Member

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    I never said let's disarm people in poor neighborhoods. I wish I had statistics to back me up on this, but let's take Philadelphia and Camden as an example. These are two cities that are seperated by a river. Both are urban developements. Philadelphia has a higher population than Camden, but if I'm not mistaken Camden has a higher homicide rate per capita than Philadelphia. In fact, I think a few years ago it was considered to be the murder capital of the country or at least in the top five. So why the difference? Is there less police presence, more drug trafficking, less social developments, more guns on the street?

    New Orleans is another example. N.O. was usually known for some gun violence, but ever since Katrina, according to the media, it has gotten worse. Why? I think if we found some answers than we may know how to combat this violence.
     
  19. Rikter8

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    I would imagine it's people trying to protect their homes with what little they have left from Looting. Same thing with stores, etc.
    When an area is majorly wiped out, you almost HAVE to arm yourself, and your family to make sure you can get food, water, supplies, etc.

    It's not to say that you couldnt get them otherwise, but it greatly decreases your chance that someone will dick with you.

    Has anyone here taken a CCW course?
    The first thing the State Police officer generally will tell you is that "You are on your own out there, whether you choose to believe it or not"

    That's a very strong statement made by our own government telling people, that they have the right to bear arms responsably.

    Never EVER pull a gun on anyone unless you intend to use it.
    And that includes big-shot cops.
    Once it's pulled - Its on.
     
  20. BobLeeSwagger

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    The right of a private citizen to bear arms has never been affirmed by the Supreme Court. Surprisingly, there have been only a few Second Amendment cases that the court has ruled on, and all concerned the "militia" clause. That doesn't mean the right doesn't exist, nor would it stop states from having their own right to bear arms (which many do). Quite a few people on both sides of the debate wish the Supremes would rule either way on the issue, but so far, no dice.

    It's not that gun control is pointless, it just doesn't seem to affect violent crime rates either way. Every time someone goes on a shooting rampage, there are numerous calls for stricter gun control. But each incident already breaks multiple laws. In almost every jurisdiction, there are only a handful of legal ways to fire a gun: hunting, approved gun ranges, and self-defense. Just about every other situation is already against the law.

    The gun control advocates ARE right that if there were no guns, then people wouldn't get shot with them. But passing more laws doesn't get rid of guns. As mentioned by others, only criminals would have guns if they became illegal. It's a violent culture and always has been. Occasionally you hear someone complain that back in the good old days people weren't shooting each other in the streets. They were. It just wasn't on TV every single day.
     
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