Gunman kills 22 at US college

Gun control

  • Rescind the constitutional provision

    Votes: 12 13.6%
  • Introduce a gun control system (such as the UK)

    Votes: 39 44.3%
  • Do nothing - it's nothing new

    Votes: 32 36.4%
  • Other....hence the thread

    Votes: 5 5.7%

  • Total voters
    88

Knoxworth

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There is a video which was sent to NBC News in the period between the 7AM shootings and the later shootings. It features the killer himself. Refuse to watch these kinds of things. Can you imagine how many more murders there would be if every killer was guaranteed a slot on prime time television?

Shameful media and their 'scoops'. They are further victimizing the survivors by harassing them day in and day out. They are clamoring over dead bodies for scraps of information to get an edge. But airing a mass murderer's dying wish is too far. And the media thinks that we want to see these kinds of things.

At one point Fox was going to publish OJ's "If I Did It Here's How" book through their sister company Harper Collins. Is there any question to why someone would do this? Seung- Hui has gained your attention. He found an audience. Refuse to watch and encourage others to show dissent toward the decision to broadcast murderers.
 

nudeyorker

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I think this country is long over due for reform of gun laws. I have heard all the arguments, but I've never met a hunter who carried a semi-automatic weapon!
 

HazelGod

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I think this country is long over due for reform of gun laws. I have heard all the arguments, but I've never met a hunter who carried a semi-automatic weapon!

You're kidding, right?

Would you care to enumerate precisely how our existing gun laws failed us in this scenario? Once you've tackled that, please enlighten us as to the mannerisms of this reform for which you suppose we are long overdue.

Do you even know what semi-automatic means?

I'll say it again for the peanut gallery: the weapon is not the problem, people.

EDIT:
I sincerely hope that none of the 8 geniuses who voted for the first option don't live in the USA.


 

rubberwilli

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This is going a little off topic here...but did anyone see the Daily Show last night when Jon Stewart interviewed Ali Allawi, the Former Minister of Defense for Iraq?

He did a great interview focusing on his book and the situation in Iraq, but, getting back on topic, at the very end of the interview he very gracefully put Virginia Tech into a global context by asking how Iraqi citizens deal with bloodshed and death on a much larger magnitude each and every day. I think, but can't remember, that on the same day as the Virginia Tech incident, over 100 people were killed in Iraq in a mass suicide bombing.

Allawi spoke about 6 of his aides being killed who had worked for him and that many Iraqi's have left the country rather than stay as their best alternative to deal with the ongoing violence is just to leave the country. Not saying that US citizens should leave our country, but trying to put a perspective on some of this. It's horrible yes, but we're not the only ones who face these types of horror each day.

I'm mangling Jon Stewart's words, but in effect Virginia Tech was only a drop in the bucket compared to what Iraqi citizens experience everyday since we invaded. I can't even begin to imagine what it would be like if there were hundreds of these guys walking around in my own neighborhood ready to kill or explode on a whim how psychologically damaged we'd all be.
 

stretcher74

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This is going a little off topic here...but did anyone see the Daily Show last night when Jon Stewart interviewed Ali Allawi, the Former Minister of Defense for Iraq?

He did a great interview focusing on his book and the situation in Iraq, but, getting back on topic, at the very end of the interview he very gracefully put Virginia Tech into a global context by asking how Iraqi citizens deal with bloodshed and death on a much larger magnitude each and every day. I think, but can't remember, that on the same day as the Virginia Tech incident, over 100 people were killed in Iraq in a mass suicide bombing.

Allawi spoke about 6 of his aides being killed who had worked for him and that many Iraqi's have left the country rather than stay as their best alternative to deal with the ongoing violence is just to leave the country. Not saying that US citizens should leave our country, but trying to put a perspective on some of this. It's horrible yes, but we're not the only ones who face these types of horror each day.

I'm mangling Jon Stewart's words, but in effect Virginia Tech was only a drop in the bucket compared to what Iraqi citizens experience everyday since we invaded. I can't even begin to imagine what it would be like if there were hundreds of these guys walking around in my own neighborhood ready to kill or explode on a whim how psychologically damaged we'd all be.

I think that was pretty much my point earlier. Gun Control is Citizen Control. Why should everyone else lose their rights because some Korean-American Skitzoid can't hold his fudge ? Maybe if you're committed like this guy apperently was, and haven't shown up for treatment, you should take a time out.

If you listen to the anti-gun lobby you'd think that guns were the best way on earth to kill large numbers of people. Well I think about 250 civilians got blown-up in Iraq yesterday in "bombings", on top of the 100+ who get killed daily by the death squads because they aren't carrying and can't shoot back.

My car has as much or more potential to kill large numbers of people as a gun. And hey if you really wanted to kill scores of people you'd just ... (well I think that thought is better kept to myself)
 

madame_zora

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While I don't entirely disagree, Zora, the problem with the level of generalization that these are angry and depressed kids is that it describes most American males at some point in the lives. Bullying is a HUGE issue in schools, but that hardly explains a shooter since it is almost a universal experience but most of us wouldn't consider striking back at our tormentors let alone thirty complete strangers. It is not an adequate explanation. Emotional disaffectation does not = murderous rampage.

Oh no, of course not! I don't agree with "zero tolerance" policies or any kind of all-or-nothing approaches. My own daughter was suspended from school for two months when someone found an old note from six months ago that she and a girlfriend had been passing in class that contained the line "I wonder if you cracked her open like a pinata if candy would come spewing out?" and decided she was a potential danger to society. She had to make up the time in summer school and really lost her desire to perform because of it. Was the school wrong? Well, I know her and she's never been in a fight of any kind, never threatened to hurt anyone, had plenty of friends and was getting a 96 in the class where she made a comment about the teacher. She and her friend were (cruelly) making fun of the teacher for being fat. They actually liked her, they were just being stupid kids. After writing her a five page letter of explaination as to why she understood how what she said was hurtful, and reassuring the teacher that she had the utmost respect for her, and being a bigger size person herself, she felt awful that the note had been brought to her attention, the teacher didn't respond at all, not even to say she got the note.

Julianna was interviewed by the police, two school counsellors, and we had a hearing before the school board to review her "mental stability". While it was unanimously decided that she was not unbalanced, the suspension was applied anyway as a punitive measure. I think losing nearly a quarter of the school year is a bit excessive for being rude. Everyone involved knew exactly what was going on, it was no mystery. They wanted to look "tough on crime" without having to confront any of the real problems.

Earlier that same year, another kid, a "dangerous one" that no one wanted to piss of, got suspended for two weeks for bringing a pipe bomb to school.

Several students had guns and knives confiscated from them, with no suspensions, just their parents had to come pick up the weapons.

What I'm saying is that in almost every case where actual violence does occur, there have been plenty of warning signs, as there were in this latest case. Several teachers, and even his counsellor knew of this boy's problems, and he had been removed from classes because of them. It surprised no one who knew him that he did this, his fellow students had reported him to teachers and the police. Why nothing had been done may eventually come to light, but there is a lot more to look at than just gun control.

The article you posted for me does present my view more closely. Note that the author also does not offer blanket solutions, but closes in stating that these issues will be debated for years to come. That's how it works. While we all crave a quick fix, we won't be getting one. There's the social pressure on boys to be "macho", there's the rampant bullying left unchecked that makes a certain few people feel exceptionally disenfranchised, there's the unwillingness of educators to act as police (which is understandable, they didn't enter law enforcement for a reason),
and like every other problem we have as a society, there's a complete lack of accountability. Parents just want to say "not my kid", even though they know the kid's been torturing animals and frightening girls or whatever. Teachers don't want to confront the truly dangerous, knowing there's no one around to keep them safe, and why should they? Schools don't want to allocate funds for school counsellors that would divert monies away from athletic programs, and society as a whole wants to punish the individual while ignoring the reality that for a multitude of reasons, our schools are becomming pressure cookers for underdeveloped minds who see school as the whole world.

I would like to see education focus at least some attention on the backgrounds of some of our historical figures and people of accomplishment- they are often NOT "popular" kids in school, but no one tells us that. To a young person, being a loser in school seems like a life sentence. Dorks often grow up to be very successful adults (Bill Gates), and didn't the geekiest Beatle get the prettiest wife? Drive back to your hometown and see how many of the football players and cheerleaders are still there, working at the pizza joint or changing oil. Nothing wrong with either thing, honest money, but when you realise that poor social skills often don't transfer well into the real world, then you understand that these bullies and braggarts are often covering up the fact that they lack substance. Let's talk about that.

By introducing into schools, and society, and increased awareness of what causes extreme pressure on our kids, at the worst we could get some kids who need a little more reassurance and direction some help. At best, it may prevent some of the episodes of violence. A counsellor is the proper person to walk with the kid through the issues going on in his/her life, and also lay out the consequenses of all the possible actions he might choose.
Too many schools have no guidance counsellors anymore, or too few. I HAD an on-staff guidance consellor at my school, as I suspect most people attending school in the 70s did. Funny how we cut budgets of these kinds of "fluff" positions, and we sentenced our kids to school conditions that are less regulated than some prisons.

The people who are saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" have a point, although not a conclusive one. Accidental gun deaths don't happen where guns aren't around, and easy access to guns leads many a depressed kid to shoot himself, some who may lack the resolve if it weren't so easy.

The article you posted was for research done prior to 2001 (thanks for that article, by the way), I wonder if anything has been done more recently? I don't really see the bush admin investing money into the fluff sciences, when they are so vigorously rejecting the more commonly accepted ones.:rolleyes: We all want answers, and the answers are that we HAVE to start paying attention to obvious signs, and reacting with intelligence, compassion, and firmness. It's just not okay to walk away from these events shaking our heads, but learning nothing. I get angry hearing people saying "Stop focusing on the killer, he's baaaaad- let's talk about the wonderful lives of the people he killed". Well yes, there is certainly a place for that, and I agree that killers should not be glamorised, but eulogising the victims gets us no closer to an understanding about what's going on, and what we can do to grow out of this insideous phase in our development.
 

FrenumFellow

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Here is an article that provides some clues as to why the shooter came to see himself as a victim and outsider. During grade school, he was apparently teased and bullied over both his difficulty learning to speak, and his ethnicity.

Based on reports starting to come out that he had speech problems even when he lived in Korea, it appears to me that he probably had some kind of speech impediment or disability in addition to whatever difficulty he might have had with english as a second language. His school should have been providing him help with any speaking problems that severe, and making sure that he had a supportive classroom environment - both teachers and students - for working on his problems, but there aren't any details about whether he received any of that or somehow fell through the cracks.

It also appears to me that the shooter probably suffered from the sort of mental disease that tends to have an onset in early adulthood, like schizophrenia and particularly paranoid schizophrenia. Whatever was going on, was certainly greatly aggravated by the unfortunate circumstances of his childhood.


Va. Tech Shooter Was Laughed At

Apr 19 12:15 PM US/Eastern
By MATT APUZZO
Associated Press Writer

BLACKSBURG, Va. (AP) - Long before he snapped, Virginia Tech gunman Cho Seung-Hui was picked on, pushed around and laughed at over his shyness and the strange way he talked when he was a schoolboy in the Washington suburbs, former classmates say.

Chris Davids, a Virginia Tech senior who graduated from Westfield High School in Chantilly, Va., with Cho in 2003, recalled that the South Korean immigrant almost never opened his mouth and would ignore attempts to strike up a conversation.

Once, in English class, the teacher had the students read aloud, and when it was Cho's turn, he just looked down in silence, Davids recalled. Finally, after the teacher threatened him with an F for participation, Cho started to read in a strange, deep voice that sounded "like he had something in his mouth," Davids said.

"As soon as he started reading, the whole class started laughing and pointing and saying, `Go back to China,'" Davids said.

The high school classmates' accounts add to the psychological portrait that is beginning to take shape, and could shed light on Cho's state of mind in the video rant he mailed to NBC in the middle of his rampage Monday at Virginia Tech.

.....

Stephanie Roberts, 22, a fellow member of Cho's graduating class at Westfield High, said she never witnessed anyone picking on Cho in high school.

"I just remember he was a shy kid who didn't really want to talk to anybody," she said. "I guess a lot of people felt like maybe there was a language barrier."

But she said friends of hers who went to middle school with Cho told her they recalled him getting picked on there.

"There were just some people who were really mean to him and they would push him down and laugh at him," Roberts said Wednesday. "He didn't speak English really well and they would really make fun of him."

FULL STORY AT http://www.breitbart.com/article.ph...&show_article=1
 

rubberwilli

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So what would it hurt if there was a nationwide 48 hour hold on purchasing a gun so that a more thorough background check could be performed? Cho purchased his gun in under 5 minutes according to the man who sold it to him.

When is it neccesary to have a gun, any gun, in less that 48 hours? As many comedians have pointed out, Cho purchased his gun quicker than you can get your dry cleaning, a netflix DVD, a passport or a drivers liscence. Something about that seems wrong to me.

Quite frankly I don't understand the need to have a gun. My father had two in the house when I was growing up, but it never made me feel safer. He wasn't a hunter, and he used one of them to kill himself last year. So no guns for me thank you.
 

gketwin73

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The Fact is that the War was about a conquest for Oil.
It wasn't about terrorists. It wasn't about Freeing Iraq.
It was a revenge plot.
So were spending billions of dollars sitting over there, racking up un-needed debt for your family, and yourself to pay for.
Their goal, devistate the US economy and bring it down. Racking up big debt fiddling around in a foreign country is a good way to bankrupt the citizens here. In other words, They win.

The Fact is, that they don't want the US there, at all.
For those that Wanted to go there and fight out of rage, I pray for them for being mis-guided to "Be all you can be".
For those that are over there by force, I pray for them to come home safely to their families.
I can only think of a handful of people that came out of the Military and that were happy with the wage they earned. Most are in low paying temp agency or service jobs trying to make ends meat, and are 4-5 years behind everyone else.

What are you fighting for? The world is still wondering.[/quote]

I am really quite insulted by your obvious manner of which you think and want to know where you got your facts.

The truth is that a very large majority of the Iraqi people do in fact want us there and desire to be free from the life of dictators like Saddam was. I resent the fact that you would even think let alone say that the War in Iraq is about oil when I know the fact is otherwise. You obviously are the misguided soul or just confused because of all of the talk on the tv. This war does not have anything to do with a revenge plot or conspiracy theory of any type. The war is about securing a life for those that cannot do so for themselves. If you would take a moment from your ignorance and check your history, Iraq is a biblical nation known as Babylon and we are actually fulfilling scripture. Also, the people of Iraq have never known freedom before and desire to know what we in America obviously are taking for granted. The life that they desire is the life we shrug our shoulders at and curse God and everything else. The people of Iraq is glad that we are there and want us to stay for the most part. The country is in a state of transition and never before had to worry about defending itself as it does now. The soldiers that die each day over in Iraq and Afghanistan are my brothers and sisters and I strongly resent your dishonoring their life and memory by your comments and implications. The war in Iraq is necessary in order to prevent terrorism from coming to America or have you already forgotten September 11,2001. This was the date that defined the acts that we must take to keep the ignorant people such as yourselves that doubt, safe. We as a military believe in the cause that we are fighting for and will continue to fight until the battle and war is won. The American people are being fed a bunch of lies and false statements regarding the details of the war and our newly elected Democratic Congress is leading this fight to not only demoralize our military but also cause doubts in the purpose that we believe in. I suggest strongly that you get your facts straight before you come at me with your insults. Stop watching tapes of Michael Moore and shows on CNN. wake up from your slumber and wise up. Support the troops and our cause because we believe in our mission.
Education just for you:
WARRIOR ETHOS
I WILL ALWAYS PLACE THE MISSION FIRST.
I WILL NEVER ACCEPT DEFEAT.
I WILL NEVER QUIT.
I WILL NEVER LEAVE A FALLEN COMRADE.

I AM FIGHTING SOLDIER OF THE UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES AND I AM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN.
 

Principessa

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Rubberwilli,

I am so sorry for your loss! Suicide devastates families.

However, what you have shared with us only enforces what I said on another related thread We need a much better mental health care system in this country.

I hope and pray that some good will come of this tragedy and that our country will revamp and restructure its mental health care system. It has been woefully inadequate, underfunded, maligned, and understaffed for years.

So what would it hurt if there was a nationwide 48 hour hold on purchasing a gun so that a more thorough background check could be performed? Cho purchased his gun in under 5 minutes according to the man who sold it to him.

When is it neccesary to have a gun, any gun, in less that 48 hours? As many comedians have pointed out, Cho purchased his gun quicker than you can get your dry cleaning, a netflix DVD, a passport or a drivers liscence. Something about that seems wrong to me.

Quite frankly I don't understand the need to have a gun. My father had two in the house when I was growing up, but it never made me feel safer. He wasn't a hunter, and he used one of them to kill himself last year. So no guns for me thank you.
 

fortiesfun

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The article you posted was for research done prior to 2001 (thanks for that article, by the way), I wonder if anything has been done more recently?
Very thoughtful post, Zora, and insightful on many fronts.

I know of no later research project, but I've been reading up and if I find one I'll let you know.
 

rubberwilli

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Rubberwilli,

I am so sorry for your loss! Suicide devastates families.

However, what you have shared with us only enforces what I said on another related thread We need a much better mental health care system in this country.

I hope and pray that some good will come of this tragedy and that our country will revamp and restructure its mental health care system. It has been woefully inadequate, underfunded, maligned, and understaffed for years.

Not to belabor the issue or hijack the thread, but for clarification.

My father wasn't mentally ill, he was terminally-physically ill, with emphasema, and he decided he wasn't going to live in a severely diminished capacity anymore nor was he going back into the hospital again. My uncle said that ever since my father returned from his tour of duty he was a changed man and always had a gun at work and home since that time. My mother said he had indicated when he was first diagnosed that he would kill himself if he got to a diminished capacity state.

So I understand why my father did it, but I certainly don't agree with how he did it or the effect that it has had on all of his children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, girlfriend, brother, ex-wives, neighbors, friends, business partners, and so on and so on.

The mental image I and my family have of his final minutes is something no one should have to live with for the rest of their life. Which relates somewhat to the NBC airing the pictures and videos of the killer and the effect that has on the families. I only think about what it must have been like for my father. The VTech families now have images of the killer in his rampage preparations to haunt them. But that is for another thread here.
 

transformer_99

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Gun control, crazy people, well less than a week after the VT massacre. We get more of this crap. The symptoms are massacres, suicides, office shootups. Last year alone, I experienced an office shooting where I worked and a murder in the parking lot of my apartment complex. The root cause is that this society US and global is simply comprised of degrees of retardation. That and it's a sick world, with sick rules and this is what results from it. I'm watching CNN right now, and every professional they've had on their programming has danced around it, even Dr. Phil. Nobody, in the wake of this tragedy has the balls to say, the system breeds this ! It's what we are, have been and will be even beyond our own lifetimes. Somebody will wrong another and when reciprocity comes full circle, nobody will like the results that day either. We have supposedly the best minds on the planet dancing around this harsh reality.

[FONT=Verdana,Sans-serif]Man Kills Hostage, Self at NASA Building[/FONT]

"http://apnews.excite.com/article/20070421/D8OKMCB83.html"

These both are and aren't sepearate incidents and one doesn't need a PHD in psychology to see and know that the symptoms are as easy to diagnose as Aids and Cancer. There is no solution, gun control isn't the answer. Mankind has been killing each other for millions of years, regardless of whether man was created by God or has found himself here based on evolution theories. Take a gun away and this kid or others like him will use a baseball bat, knife, car, jawbone of an @ss or whatever other item that can be used as a weapon. For crying out loud, Al Qaeda used several passenger airliners to murder thousands. When I wake up to read that employees at an airport are involved in drug smuggling,

"http://www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI45205/"

I have to think stiffer gun control will only drive that aspect of gun supply to become simply illegal and black market activity. It will still go on, just as this type of domestic violence will. Until leadership of this nation and world acknowledge the problems, there will never be solutions. Because to acknowledge the problems, means those in power have to be accountable and responsible for their roles in it. But that's another can of worms that deserves it's own thread.