Happy Nowruz from Barack Obama

Flashy

Sexy Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
Posts
7,901
Media
0
Likes
27
Points
183
Location
at home
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Good points Flashy. I did not say that Iran had conventional forces in Iraq and would not say such a thing as it's quite untrue by all reports I know. I was referring to their covert support of insurgencies and pro-Iranian political/paramilitary factions. I should have been clearer.

I used to believe that Israel would eventually act no matter what the US said, but Livni's lack of a mandate in the last election made me reconsider. I freely admit I could be wrong. I'm no expert on Israeli internal politics.

no prob Jas...i didn't think you were advocating that Iranian armor was actually there now launching attacks or anything, i was just laying out a complete list of the situation as i tend to do and covering all angles. obviously we both know they are in there covertly.

as for Livni, she is not the prime minister...it is Netanyahu who is being asked to form the government, which likely will happen in the next two weeks...

and if we don't act...Bibi will pull the trigger. Bet on it like you would bet on gold rising as the dollar sinks :wink:

anyway, i look forwad to discussing this more with you tomorrow, as i am falling asleep here, and must away to bed...:redface:

nighty night :biggrin1:
 
2

2322

Guest
Yes, I'm aware Netanyahu was chosen as PM. Part of what made me reconsider was Obama's election. I should have mentioned that before. I think Obama is perceived to be less enthusiastic about Israel than any Republican would be and so I think Israel will hold back until they can guess how much they can get away with. Obama must be aware that any unilateral Israeli action will appear to the Muslim world to be an action by the United States by proxy.

Israel appeared ready to hit Iran only a few months ago yet backed down when the US urged them to. Given how close to properly enriched uranium Iran supposedly is, I'm surprised they would do that.

And goodnight Flashy! Sweet dreams!
 

kalipygian

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2005
Posts
1,948
Media
31
Likes
139
Points
193
Age
68
Location
alaska
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Oh my bloody oath... He even speaks Muzlum! :eek:

Mr. Obama is using the internet in new and creative ways again.

YouTube - whitehouse's Channel

AFP: Obama launches 'YouTube diplomacy'

Diplomacy in the 21st century?
Or naive?
Will the Israelis scorn this attempt to speak to their enemies?
What will the NeoCons and their media lackys have to say?
Will the Mulallahs be blocking the people of Iran from watching? Or will they scream more threats from the Minbar?

This guy just keeps changing the game.

Actually, Zoroastrian. The origins of Nowruz are ancient Persian, it is at least twice as old as Islam.
 

vince

Legendary Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Posts
8,271
Media
1
Likes
1,680
Points
333
Location
Canada
Sexuality
69% Straight, 31% Gay
Gender
Male
oh please. keeps changing the game?

Totally Naive...

Virtually every president in the modern age has addressed citizens of other nations in one way or another, either through diplomatic visits, or speeches or on Voice Of America indirectly

so because he put it on youtube he is some kind of visionary?

that puts him on the same level of vision of kids who put clips of themselves playing HALO on youtube.

It is a perfectly rational strategy...he did not discover the cure for cancer or split the atom.

Someone on his staff probably said, "hey why don't we shoot an address to the Iranians and stick it on the internet and the TV and everywhere"

it is not as if it went out on Youtube Only...it was given to every Iranian News Agency as well


if you think sending a greeting on youtube is somehow going to convince the Iranians that they should stop pursuing their nearly completed nuclear plans you are sadly mistaken.
Game changing may be a little OTT, true enough. But it is a huge change from the tactics of Bush and Co. If you don't think that the "Great Satan" sending a video message of peace directly to the Iranian people, over the heads of the mullahs is useful or significant, well then we'll just have to disagree about that. No one is ever going to change your mind about the Iranians, so I'm not even going to try.

The US MAY be able handle another war militarily (I have my doubts), but they can't economically. Furthermore, Iran isn't Iraq. Read a little history of the Iranian/Iraq war. Iranians don't cut and run like Saddam's soldiers did. I doubt the American public has the stomach for the 10's for thousands of causalities they would suffer in a war with Iran.
 

vince

Legendary Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Posts
8,271
Media
1
Likes
1,680
Points
333
Location
Canada
Sexuality
69% Straight, 31% Gay
Gender
Male
It's not sarcasm, it's a fact. Do Christians speak Christian? Do Jews speak Jewish? Do Hindus speak Hindu? Of course not!

Arabic is the most widely used language in the Middle East (with hundreds of different dialects). In Iran, the most commonly used language is Farsi.

Languages of Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Farsi, the most widely spoken Persian Language, a Farsi Dictionary, Farsi English Dictionary, The spoken language in Iran, History of Farsi Language, Learn Farsi, Farsi Translation
I meant I could use the sarcasm smiley. I'm well aware there is no such language as "Muslim" or "Christian".

FYI, I live in a nation where 98% of the population is Muslim. I also speak the local language as well as two others. I'm planning a motorcycle roadtrip to Iran for 2010. Some Türks I know have invited me along on their next trip. They went two years ago and had a wonderful time.
 
Last edited:
2

2322

Guest
I meant I could use the sarcasm smiley. I'm well aware there is no such language as "Muslim" or "Christian".

FYI, I live in a nation where 98% of the population is Muslim. I also speak the local language as well as two others. I'm planning a motorcycle roadtrip to Iran for 2010. Some Türks I know have invited me along on their next trip. They went two years ago and had a wonderful time.

How do you reconcile spending money in Iran with their government's abysmal human rights record and sponsorship of terrorism?
 

vince

Legendary Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Posts
8,271
Media
1
Likes
1,680
Points
333
Location
Canada
Sexuality
69% Straight, 31% Gay
Gender
Male
How do you reconcile spending money in Iran with their government's abysmal human rights record and sponsorship of terrorism?
Well I won't be spending much and I won't be giving it directly to the government. It will be spent on gasoline, food and shelter.

Similarly, I spend time and money in the USA every year even though I have disagreed with the foreign adventures of your government for years. I traveled to China last year and they are no better than the Iranians. I was in Russia before the fall of the communist regime. So what? Going to these places as a tourist doesn't do much for the regime. I does give me a little understanding and insight into the life and what is going on there.
 

Flashy

Sexy Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
Posts
7,901
Media
0
Likes
27
Points
183
Location
at home
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
I just find it shocking that when the U.S. threatens much smaller countries they consider arming themselves. What nerve!
Dave

well, actually Iran's nuclear energy program goes back at least 40-50 years... to the time of the Shah, when we were allies, long before we were threatening them :wink:

we began threatening them because of the weapons program in recent time...their arming was not caused by US threats, it is what predicated US threats.

Iran's nuclear program in its various forms goes back pre-revolution, to the time of the Shah, and back then, pre-revolution, the program had whole hearted american and western support (for peaceful energy)

we had planned to help the Shah construct roughly 22-24 nuclear plants all to be fully operational by the millenium...a peaceful energy program.

the problem is not with nuclear power and nuclear energy.

the problem is with the weapons program.
 

faceking

Cherished Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2004
Posts
7,426
Media
6
Likes
282
Points
208
Location
Mavs, NOR * CAL
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Wow. Treating our adversaries with dignity and respect; might this lead to them responding in kind? Quel novel concept.

Indeed.. whatever it was that Clinton did during the 8 years to rile them up enough to carry out 9/11.

There is only one strong way to bring the return of Al-Aqsa and Palestine, and that is jihad in the path of God.
 

Flashy

Sexy Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
Posts
7,901
Media
0
Likes
27
Points
183
Location
at home
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Game changing may be a little OTT, true enough. But it is a huge change from the tactics of Bush and Co. If you don't think that the "Great Satan" sending a video message of peace directly to the Iranian people, over the heads of the mullahs is useful or significant, well then we'll just have to disagree about that. No one is ever going to change your mind about the Iranians, so I'm not even going to try.

many iranians of the younger variety like the west. The problem is, they have virtually no power.

as for the great satan sending a "message of peace"...it was hardly that. there were implied threats in the message, not to mention, the nice sweet overtures to Iran have never worked before and they were already rebuffed after obama's delivery.

it may be useful and sweet, but it is still irrelevant, because the fundamental issue is that we do not want them to have the bomb, and they want it. They are not going to stop and if they don't stop, we have issued threats.

so what was the point other than some posturing? There are still no other ways to change the behavior of the Iranians...the sanctions are still there, and they are not coming off, and Obama cannot really change policy, since the policy states that Iran shouldn't have weapons...so it is merely dancing around an issue that is already decided. They want the bomb, we don't want them to have it. we offer a "message of peace" which i t wasn't...it was a tactical attempt to cajole the regime to do something they have no intent ofdoing...giving up the weapons program.

so utlimately, it serves no purpose. It may be sweet and nice a large portion of the iranian people, but to the regime, it is weakness, and does not change their view one iota, since their goal is weapons, and ours is to stop it.

Even Bush and Co tried the carrot and the stick...the fact is, the iranians do not care for carrots, sticks or sweet messages...they want the bomb...and only one thing will stop them.



The US MAY be able handle another war militarily (I have my doubts), but they can't economically. Furthermore, Iran isn't Iraq. Read a little history of the Iranian/Iraq war. Iranians don't cut and run like Saddam's soldiers did. I doubt the American public has the stomach for the 10's for thousands of causalities they would suffer in a war with Iran.

it is not a question of "may" since we are not talking about an invasion. the US Air Force and Navy are not strained at all operationally, since there is little to no fighting for them in Iraq and Afghanistan. it mostly consists of air patrol and being on station for strikes at certain times, which are carried out by drones more often now.

the Air Force and Navy would have no trouble neutralizing Iran.

and economically, the cost of the strikes is minimal compared to the cost of operational invasions.

1,000 Tomahawk missiles unit production costs are 500-600 million dollars total overall.
2,000 pound JDAMs cost $55,000 each
the brand new 250 pound class small diameter bombs cost $50,000 each

the new GBU 5000 pound penetrator "bunker Busters" cost $150,000 each
the brand new 30,000 pound class of penetrators are not available at the moment, but would not exceed$500,000 per unit.

that also does not include all the other munitions currently in the arsenal that would be used, or the cost of fuel, maintenace and operations.

frankly, a massive strike and continued air operations of that nature are rather cheap compared to even a week of ground forces occupation.


the weapons cost alone to strike with

1,000 tomahawks
1,000 2k pound class JDAMS
2,000 new SDB 250 pound class JDAMS
200 of the 5000 pound class penetrators
20 Massive Ordinance Penetrators (30,000 pound class)

would be a nominal 800 million to 1 billion dollars or so


factor in the operational costs of a one week long round the clock missile and bombing campaign and you are not looking at more than 6-7 billion dollars, which is a pittance in exchange for completely destroying not only Iran's entire nuclear weapons program, but also all the Iranian revolutionary Guard Corps apparatus, putting them in a very difficult position with regards to any future ability to destabilize Iraq to the same degree they are now doing, not to mention eliminate their ability to launch any type of ground invasions.

a comprehensive attack on all their naval, air, ground force bases and nuclear program apparatus, would take only a few days, and would leave their military power int he region obliterated...and frankly, the saudis and egyptians will be very relieved along with the Israelis.
 

vince

Legendary Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Posts
8,271
Media
1
Likes
1,680
Points
333
Location
Canada
Sexuality
69% Straight, 31% Gay
Gender
Male
And the short and long term consequences of your solution Flashy? What are they?
 

Flashy

Sexy Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
Posts
7,901
Media
0
Likes
27
Points
183
Location
at home
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
And the short and long term consequences of your solution Flashy? What are they?

who knows?

but it is better then allowing a psychotic, theocratic regime who actively support terrorism to acquire not only a nuclear weapon istelf, but also the means to produce them constantly.

that regime is currently expanding its missile technology to put all of europe under their missile range, and eventually, one day way down the line, put the United States in its nuclear missile range.

that is completely and totally unacceptable.

the short and long term consequences of allowing it, will be total and complete destabilization of the middle east, and will cause the Egyptians and the Saudis to engage in their own little nuclear race...not to mention, considering both of these regimes have their own internal problems with radicalism, i do not not think we need yet another nuclear weapons race, this time between the Shiites and the Sunnis, especially when there is already the extreme friction in Iraq between Sunnis and Shiites at the boiling point.

In case you have not noticed, the Saudis and the Egyptians are extremely worried about Iran and its behavior in the region.

As for the long and short term consequences of the attack, the idea would be to destroy the mullahs ability to respond, which, if they did not have any military bases left, or nuclear facilities left, or missile technology left, would be hampered severely.

It is their choice. there is no point in Obama, or Bush or Mary Poppins asking or demanding that they comply with ending the weapons program when in fact there is no threat behind it.

the fact is, there are only two ways this can and will play out. Either they get the bomb, or we stop them.

there is no middle ground with the "Islamic Revolution" that has gripped Iran for 30 years nearly.

the fact that they are currently conducting several terror wars vs. at least 4 different countries at the moment in varying degrees from political, to covert to overt support should be evidence enough.

when Hillary Clinton says as she did this week that ""Our task is to dissuade them, deter them and prevent from acquiring a nuclear weapon," Clinton said."

what exactly do you do to "prevent" them from acquiring a nuclear weapons (and several dozen more in production) should we not be able to "dissuade" or "deter" them?

so far,
-the carrot and the stick approach did not work.
-the threaten them approach did not work.

so obviously, they are not interested in stopping.

if that is the case, what exactly is left if the new Youtube Sunshine and Flowers approach does not work?

Frankly, they should have been hit a long time ago...and we have been wasting time ever since, allowing them to get closer and closer...and the closer and closer they get with no response from us, the more emboldened they are to continue full speed.

We already have one totally destabilized Islamic regime with nukes. The difference is, that those in charge are not actually the loonies, for the moment.

In Iran, it is actually the loonies who are in charge...and allowing them to get nuclear weapons is simply unacceptable. If it means another war, so what?

There are times when you have to fight, and certain regimes have had it coming for a long time.

Do we want Iran to become a nuclear armed lunatic state, like North Korea has become?

look at North Korea's "neighbors"..they are in a constant state of danger and controversy...Japan and South Korea are *ALWAYS* on edge now...so now we let another region become utterly destabilized by a lunatic regime with nuclear weapons, more than it already is?

sorry...a nuclear armed Iran is unacceptable.

you may disagree with my theories or ask "what happens in short term or long term"...but you have not provided the solution for the situation...

so i have said my opinion...

what do *YOU* do, if they do not agree to stop their weapons program under any circumstances, either under sanctions, sweet talking, or threat?

just let them do it?
 

D_Fiona_Farvel

Account Disabled
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Posts
3,692
Media
0
Likes
73
Points
133
Sexuality
No Response
many iranians of the younger variety like the west. The problem is, they have virtually no power.

This is actually untrue, and at 70+% of the population, impossible.
It is not that Iranian youth do not have power, it is that they are not politically active, however, they are still catered to in the political sphere.

There was a moment, in the campaign of Khatami, that people, like Vali Nasr, believed that Iran was undergoing a youth-driven "Prague Spring", however, there was a retraction by the youth after Khatami was elected. The pulling back by the youth was due to a few reasons - but Khatami turning out to be not as radical and "dialogue of civilizations" as many hoped, the ideological split amongst reformists, the U.S. saber rattling, and Khamenei fucking with eligibility in the 2004 election were all important factors.

There is a general belief, including by the U.S. intelligence community, that the youth just need a person to rally behind, like Khatami, but that person has not emerged yet. However, as the revolutionary era leaders leave public life - and they are respected, btw - there will be more politicized youth coming to the fore.

If you want to get a better understanding about the youth culture of Iran, I'd recommend reading some of their blogs. Or the blog of a member of the gurdian council, that is actually quite liberal and responds directly to youth issue - can't recall his name.

Also, it isn't that young Iran like the West, although, they do. The important point to consider is that they are living a higly Westernized lifestyle to an extent not seen since the pre-revolutionary era.

I suggest reading The Soul of Iran by Ashfin Molavi - which is easy to find, if not great. If you have access to academic resources/journals, I highly recommend reading anything by Zahra Eshraghi, Miriam Cooke, and Karim Sadjadpour.
 

Bbucko

Cherished Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Posts
7,232
Media
8
Likes
326
Points
208
Location
Sunny SoFla
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Great post, Sweet Ass: I wish more women participated in this forum.

I'm not sure what it will take before some segments of the population understand that the Bush Doctrine of preemptive war and "enhanced interrogation techniques" are not just contrary to our nation's history and conscience but are deeply corrosive to the stability of the world.
 

faceking

Cherished Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2004
Posts
7,426
Media
6
Likes
282
Points
208
Location
Mavs, NOR * CAL
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
when Hillary Clinton says as she did this week that ""Our task is to dissuade them, deter them and prevent from acquiring a nuclear weapon," Clinton said."

It's about as effective as an "assault weapons ban". Thusly, making the purchasing of them illegal.