Has Your Zodiac Sign Changed?

Calboner

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I know this was not directed at me but I feel as a person who DOES believe in astrology (along with a PLETHORA of other things most others don't) I should speak up.

Calboner, I absolutely respect your reasoning. I really do. I get the logic behind what you're trying to get across. I also absolutely respect your decision not to believe. I would hope your decision not to believe has the same respect for my decision to believe. In other words, to each their own.

To call someone a child or a sucker because they don't believe the way you do - especially in matters that don't affect you either way - is a dangerous thing. It's divisive and intolerant. And while I realize we don't live in a world where everything is rainbows and unicorns, on matters that don't affect you either way it really is best to just live and let live.

Are you entitled to your opinion? Of course. Far be it from me to deny you of that right. Just be careful of your words, for they have consequence.
First of all, talk of a "decision to believe" is nonsense. There is no such thing as "deciding to believe" something. Various factors determine one's beliefs. Some are rational, some (surely most) are not. We do not have the power to choose to believe. We have the power to choose whether to consider evidence, whether to examine the conclusions that we are inclined to draw, whether to investigate our sources, and so forth; and we have the power to disregard counterevidence, avoid examination of our reasoning, and in general be uncritical in our thinking. These things lie within our power of free choice. Our beliefs themselves do not.

Second, the issue that I was raising was not about beliefs per se but about the reasoning or lack of reasoning by which those beliefs are arrived at. The belief in astrology and its conclusions derives from confirmation bias and other weaknesses of the human mind. Human beings cannot help having these weaknesses, but they have a choice about whether to take account of them and examine their own thinking critically or not. It is the failure to do this, not the beliefs in themselves, that I was deriding as childish and foolish (though I am prepared to deride the beliefs as well, since no critical habit of mind can sustain them).

Third, if you were making the point that deriding someone's reasoning or lack thereof as childish and foolish is an unproductive strategy for inducing the person to be more critical--rather like trying to get someone to be more disciplined about diet and exercise by telling them how fat and out-of-shape they are--then I could grant your point. But that is not the line that you take. Your objection is that my derision is "a dangerous thing" because it is "divisive and intolerant." I am familiar with such cant phrases, but they are so evasive of determinate meaning that I would have to ask you to explain exactly what you mean by them before I could give a proper reply. For now, I will say only that whether tolerance is desirable depends on what is to be tolerated and in what manner; and I see no reason why bad reasoning should not be subjected to criticism and even derision.

Finally, concerning your points that someone's beliefs about astrology do not affect me and that I should "be careful of my words" because they "have consequences": You have some nerve to tell me that my words have consequences while you disregard or deny the dangerous effects of uncritical and pseudo-scientific thinking. Sure, astrological thinking belongs pretty low on the list of dangerous intellectual failures, as contrasted with, say, the anti-vaccination movement or the delusions of Christian right-wingers about abstinence education and the dangers of using contraceptives. But a lot of the same intellectual failings drive all these aberrations of thinking, and they cannot be condoned.

Phil Plait, author of the blog Bad Astronomy, seems to me to put the point well at the conclusion of his article "Astrology":

So what's the harm? Sure, astrology doesn't work, but it's all in fun, right?

Wrong.

For one thing, it's estimated that hundreds of millions of dollars are spent on astrology every year in the United States alone. That's real money, folks, wasted on something that doesn't work.

For another, astrology promotes the worst thing in the world: uncritical thinking. The more we teach people to simply accept anecdotal stories, hearsay, cherry-picked data (picking out what supports your claims but ignoring what doesn't), and, frankly, out-and-out lies, the harder it gets for people to think clearly. If you cannot think clearly, you cannot function as a human being. I cannot stress this enough. Uncritical thinking is tearing this world to pieces, and while astrology may not be at the heart of that, it has its role.

For a third, and this one irritates me personally, astrology takes away from the real grandeur of the Universe. We live in an amazing place, this Universe of ours, and it's quite fantastic enough without needing people to make up things about it. Astrology dims the beauty of nature, cheapens it.
Hey, you might say, sure it's in the newspapers, but they put it next to comics, right? How seriously do newspapers take it then? My answer is, if newspapers don't take horoscopes seriously, then they shouldn't publish them in the first place. People know that comics aren't real, but not everyone understands astrology has as much legitimacy as "Blondie and Dagwood". Saying their location indicates their rationality is a cop out. Most newspapers in this country don't even have a science section, and science is critical to our daily lives (you're reading this on a computer, right? Do you wear glasses, or clothes, do you brush your teeth, take medicine, invest in tech stocks, drive a car? Thank science for all of those things then). They don't have a science section, but they'll publish horoscopes.

Also, back in the 1980s, Nancy Reagan, President Reagan's wife, consulted an astrologer to make sure that meetings and such were planned on auspicious dates astrologically. Her husband -- the President of the United States -- went along with it. Still don't think this is harmful? Arguably the most powerful man in the world, and he based his calendar on the random and unsubstantiated claims of an anti-scientific nonsense peddler.

I hope I've made my stance clear.
 

helgaleena

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The source of this whole kerfluffle is nothing new, and the ones who keep putting it forth are some Astronomers in Minnesota. Astronomy and astrology have less to do with each other than they should, and the constellation 'added' is actually the Milky Way where we are located, isn't it? It's where we stand in the circle.

Every astrologer also has a favorite way of dividing up the 'houses' and there are dozens of methods to do that as well. But it's easier to calculate by twelves than by thirteens.
 

Channelwood

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The source of this whole kerfluffle is nothing new, and the ones who keep putting it forth are some Astronomers in Minnesota.

No, the ones who keep putting it forth are reporters in Minnesota looking for controversy, who fail to understand the point the astronomer was making. It may be ignorance, but I rather suspect it is intentional sensationalism. For what is essentially a non-story to then be picked up by CNN and other national news outlets is simply a function of a slow news day and a desire to fill space.
 

phonehome

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Cal

Try this on for size

For all you know the girl says the same thing to every guy or in your case pair of guys that comes in, odds are sooner or later she will be right and for the 99% where she is wrong the mis-identified will forget about it. IE the only reason you remember is that she happened to be right.

Because you came in at the same time and appeared to be together, not just two random guys that came in one after the other the "you two are friends" thing had better odds of being correct and again if she had been wrong then you would not remember it.

So in a way it's still "confirmation bias"
 

helgaleena

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No, the ones who keep putting it forth are reporters in Minnesota looking for controversy, who fail to understand the point the astronomer was making. It may be ignorance, but I rather suspect it is intentional sensationalism. For what is essentially a non-story to then be picked up by CNN and other national news outlets is simply a function of a slow news day and a desire to fill space.


You are right.

The Hindu way around the discrepancy does not involve an extra Zodiac sign, just an initial mathematical adjustment called ayanamsa, or the progress...and in that system yes I am not a Gemini but a Taurus, and my ascendant is also shifted. OTW whether the sum of my personality is best described by mutable fire plus fixed earth rather than mutable air plus cardinal earth, is not that much different. Nowadays there are plenty of astrologers who use the jyotish system as well as the 'western' system. But few feel the need to add in the Serpent Bearer, just because of the messy math.
 

Calboner

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Cal

Try this on for size

For all you know the girl says the same thing to every guy or in your case pair of guys that comes in, odds are sooner or later she will be right and for the 99% where she is wrong the mis-identified will forget about it. IE the only reason you remember is that she happened to be right.

Because you came in at the same time and appeared to be together, not just two random guys that came in one after the other the "you two are friends" thing had better odds of being correct and again if she had been wrong then you would not remember it.

So in a way it's still "confirmation bias"
Why are you addressing this to me?
 

D_Ewan Prettidik

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Astrology (definition): Astrology is a set of systems, traditions, and beliefs which hold that the relative positions of celestial bodies (the Sun, Moon, and planets) and related details can provide information about personality, human affairs and other "earthly" matters.


There is a psychic shop on a main boulevard near my house that offers: tarot card readings (along with tea-leaf and salt/crystal readings) , palmistry, past lives regression, subconscious mind rewiring, dream interpretation, casting your own spells, oriental astrology (based on a "12-year animal cycle", whatever that is), and foretelling future events using onions, dice, candle flames, cards, a pendulum, and Ouija boards.


Here's a link to the Skeptic's Dictionary which explores all sorts of delusional beliefs including faith healing, "chakra" centers, Rorschach ink blot tests, Young Earth creationists, dowsing rods, mesmerism, Dianetics (and E-meters), and a hundred others: Table of Contents - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com


Astrology (and your daily horoscope reading) is a superstition, not a science.
 

ManofThunder

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Astrology is all rubbish. If I read about Scorpio personality traits, I think it describes me well. If I read Taurus traits, me again. The same applies for all signs. It is just superstition and nothing more.
 

Rob_81

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This whole zodiac changing thing is way too overrated. According to the "old" zodiac, I'm a virgo, and that's I'll always be! Also, the changes only affect the Western or "Topical" Zodiacal Calendar, if you go by the Sidereal Calendar, nothing's changed.

I don't expect to start behaving differently just because they're sign changed on a calendar.
 

helgaleena

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This whole zodiac changing thing is way too overrated. According to the "old" zodiac, I'm a virgo, and that's I'll always be! Also, the changes only affect the Western or "Topical" Zodiacal Calendar, if you go by the Sidereal Calendar, nothing's changed.

I don't expect to start behaving differently just because they're sign changed on a calendar.

From what I've seen at the astrology boards, the news article was from an astronomer who didn't know the difference between tropical and sidereal, and mixed them up. The thirteenth sign partisans of the 20th century have been around for decades, and use the sidereal, like the Vedic astrologers do. See my previous posts.

The majority of 'western' astrologers use the tropical zodiac and let the sidereal go.