Have a Jewy, Jewy Christmas

B_stanmarsh14

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That's ludicrous. How can you possibly say that the Christians TOOK Christmas from Paganism?? So what, the Nativity was lifted from other sources, because that is what Christmas is centered on, not the holly and ivy and yuletide logs stuff!

If Christmas means mass marketing and is for kids then that is only true for certain people and not a great many others.

You can't possibly make such whopping generalizations.

1. Yes I can
2. Yes I will
3. Well documented fact Christmas was based loosely on the Winter Solstice
4. The Mass Marketing thing is true for the MAJORITY, and not on your MINORITY idea.

NEXT!
 

Calboner

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Hmm, this thread seems to have gotten hopelessly off the original topic, but that will happen.
I have often wondered what he said when he hit his thumb with his hammer.. Could not have been "Jesus friggin bloody hell christ, that bloody well ........"
Or perhaps "Jumping me! Myself on a fucking pogo stick!" :cussing2:
It was probably something along the lines of, "OY! Ess drek und shtarbn, tuches leker! Kish mein tuches!"
:rofl:

Actually, though, it would have been something in Aramaic.
Yep, Jesus was a dreidel spinner. Some people tend to forget the context of His birth, life, and death.
Speak of "some people" and there they come:
Didn't convert anybody??...How about the Apostles for starters??...They were the first Christians who took Christs teachings to the world.
John the 'BAPTIST' ?????!!!!! Kinda signifies convertion from one set of beliefs to another!! Besides,once you accept that Jesus as the Messiah you are immediately at odds with Old Testaments (and therefore Jewish) beliefs.
:34: So much opinion and so little knowledge.

(1) As others have pointed out, the teachings of Jesus were squarely within the Jewish prophetic tradition. His followers were not Christians in any sense that would be recognizable today; e.g., none of them had any idea of Jesus being the Son of God who died for man's sins and so on.

(2) Baptism derives from the Jewish ritual bath, the mikvah, which to this day is used by observant Jews. It signifies purification and, while it is also part of the ritual of conversion, it is conversion to Judaism (which, by the way, is not a matter of changing beliefs but of changing one's observances and the people to which one belongs).

(3) The idea of a messiah--from the Hebrew mashiach, "the anointed," meaning the one who comes to restore the Kingdom of Israel--is a specifically Jewish idea that comes from the Israelite prophets. Identifying this or that man as the messiah is something that various Jewish groups have been doing--always mistakenly, of course, but never "at odds with Old Testaments [sic] beliefs"--for a couple of thousand years. The specifically Christian idea is not the idea that Jesus was the messiah but the idea that he was the Son of God (in some special sense that does not apply to all human beings) and God incarnate, and that idea was only introduced long after his death.
 

Calboner

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Calboner,

what are you going to do on sunday? i haven't decided yet. have a few entertaining options.
I've got a gig in a church that morning, but for the rest of the day I'll probably just stay at home, as there is nowhere of interest to go. I'm not very strong on the social resources, in case you hadn't guessed.
 

molotovmuffin

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I've always know that Christ was not born in Dec...it made no sense. Now, being born in June would...and could correlate with the summer solstice instead of the winter solstice. Longest day verses longest night and all that rot.

Happy Hanukaha Cal and Nudy...and all my other Jew(ish)y friends. Peace, love and joy unto you and yours. And antidepressants to everyone else.

Cal is always welcome to come to Ky for some frolicking and such, regardless of the holiday. :wink:
 

petite

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I've got a gig in a church that morning, but for the rest of the day I'll probably just stay at home, as there is nowhere of interest to go. I'm not very strong on the social resources, in case you hadn't guessed.

I can empathize with that. I don't have much either here. I'm trying to change that.

My in-laws are very secular. They decorate a tree but don't exchange gifts or do a dinner. Maybe we'll go out to eat and see a movie.
 

Uncutpete

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Let me get this straight. Are you people actually arguing about religion?? Let people have their beliefs, go about your business with your world view. If you are Jewish, you have enough "logical" problems in your religion to refrain from trying to point out Christian ones. If people really want to celebrate Christmas and ignore the awful marketing of the holiday, they should be able to. Jews should know that in their strongholds, like New York and parts of LA, it can be hard to be Christian around their holidays. Let it be folks.
 

Calboner

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Let me get this straight. Are you people actually arguing about religion?? Let people have their beliefs, go about your business with your world view. If you are Jewish, you have enough "logical" problems in your religion to refrain from trying to point out Christian ones. If people really want to celebrate Christmas and ignore the awful marketing of the holiday, they should be able to. Jews should know that in their strongholds, like New York and parts of LA, it can be hard to be Christian around their holidays. Let it be folks.
If you want to get things straight, maybe you should read what has been posted: the thread is not very long, after all. If you don't want to read it, don't go making ill-informed assertions about it. Nobody has been "trying to point out 'logical' problems" in Christianity. I was, a little earlier (#22 above), correcting the historical errors made by one person about the beginnings of Christianity in this thread, but that is quite another thing. There has been no issue at all about whether "people really want to celebrate Christmas and ignore the awful marketing of the holiday." As for your last assertion, I am mildly curious to know in what ways it is hard to be Christian during Jewish holidays in New York and parts of Los Angeles.
 
S

superbot

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1. Yes I can
2. Yes I will
3. Well documented fact Christmas was based loosely on the Winter Solstice
4. The Mass Marketing thing is true for the MAJORITY, and not on your MINORITY idea.

NEXT!
Christmas ISN'T 'based' on the winter soltice,it is merely a time chosen as a time to celebrate a SPECIFIC event in the life of Christ...THAT IS WHERE IT BEGINS AND ENDS.The winter soltice is merely the shortest day of the year.That would like saying Easter is based on hopping bunnies....Good grief,some people.
 
S

superbot

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Hmm, this thread seems to have gotten hopelessly off the original topic, but that will happen.

Or perhaps "Jumping me! Myself on a fucking pogo stick!" :cussing2:

:rofl:

Actually, though, it would have been something in Aramaic.

Speak of "some people" and there they come:


:34: So much opinion and so little knowledge.

(1) As others have pointed out, the teachings of Jesus were squarely within the Jewish prophetic tradition. His followers were not Christians in any sense that would be recognizable today; e.g., none of them had any idea of Jesus being the Son of God who died for man's sins and so on.

(2) Baptism derives from the Jewish ritual bath, the mikvah, which to this day is used by observant Jews. It signifies purification and, while it is also part of the ritual of conversion, it is conversion to Judaism (which, by the way, is not a matter of changing beliefs but of changing one's observances and the people to which one belongs).

(3) The idea of a messiah--from the Hebrew mashiach, "the anointed," meaning the one who comes to restore the Kingdom of Israel--is a specifically Jewish idea that comes from the Israelite prophets. Identifying this or that man as the messiah is something that various Jewish groups have been doing--always mistakenly, of course, but never "at odds with Old Testaments [sic] beliefs"--for a couple of thousand years. The specifically Christian idea is not the idea that Jesus was the messiah but the idea that he was the Son of God (in some special sense that does not apply to all human beings) and God incarnate, and that idea was only introduced long after his death.
I think this is called stating the 'bleedin' obvious.' Your arguement stops at the Old Testament,which if you care to look no one is disputing.What comes after that is the New Testament,which Jews do not accept as part of their beliefs as it puts Christ as the Son of God,which technically for Jews and Muslims is heresy, as the Messiah has yet to reveal himself to the world. As for your assertion that Christ never saw himself as the son of God then you clearly you have never read the Bible.Jesus in response to St.Peter unequivically declares himself to be both Christ and Son of God.Unless of course you know better.....? :biggrin1:
 

D_CountVonBhigBohner

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I keep my personal beliefs and respect for others separate. I celebrate Christmas and have no issue wishing people a Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanzaa, or any other celebration. I have a BIG Christmas tree decorated in my place, and I don't get offended by seeing a menorah at the mall. This country markets Christmas the same way it markets Presidents Day, Thanksgiving (black Friday), Independence Day, Halloween, Easter, Memorial Day, Labor Day, etc....with Sales $$$$$. That doesn't mean the holiday can't be about celebrating your own faith, and being with friends and family. My advice is to be proud of what YOU believe in, and have respect for others beliefs.


Let me get this straight. Are you people actually arguing about religion?? Let people have their beliefs, go about your business with your world view. If you are Jewish, you have enough "logical" problems in your religion to refrain from trying to point out Christian ones. If people really want to celebrate Christmas and ignore the awful marketing of the holiday, they should be able to. Jews should know that in their strongholds, like New York and parts of LA, it can be hard to be Christian around their holidays. Let it be folks.
 

bobbyboyle

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Christmas ISN'T 'based' on the winter soltice,it is merely a time chosen as a time to celebrate a SPECIFIC event in the life of Christ...THAT IS WHERE IT BEGINS AND ENDS.The winter soltice is merely the shortest day of the year.That would like saying Easter is based on hopping bunnies....Good grief,some people.
No, it would be like saying Easter is based around the Vernal equinox...

...but I suppose that would be just nonsense, right? :rolleyes:

Christmas & Hanukka - around the northern winter solstice
Easter & Passover - around the northern spring equinox

These astronomically significant points of the year have been marked by civilisations the world over for many millenia. Judaism and Christianity (and probably many other religions) have adapted pre-existing celebrations into their calendars. This shouldn't really be a surprise.
 

gymfresh

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Didn't convert anybody??...How about the Apostles for starters??...They were the first Christians who took Christs teachings to the world.

Ahem. All of the disciples -- later apostles, as Jesus made them emissaries -- were Israelites. Nowhere in the Bible does it suggest that any of them wanted to be anything but Hebrews, and Jesus never wanted them to be anything but Hebrews.

Matthew 10:5 makes it pretty clear that Jesus wasn't into converting anyone to any new religion when he sent forth the disciples. His specific instruction was to go out among wayward Hebrews and bring them back into the fold. Indeed, he said skip the Samaritans and Gentiles. (There were no "Jews" as such in those days; Judaism as an organized religion as we know it is a post-Talmudic construct. It's really only about as old as the Christian church, and they're both founded on the original monotheistic tribes of Israel.)
 

tim_1980

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Calboner, you've got a gig too? Are you a musician? I love being a Jewish musician on Christma$ --- I can work a ton and have no guilt being away from my family. Of course the icing on the cake would be if we were in fact playing the same gig, where I could make music with you in real life and admire your cock in internet land.
 

spoon

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I've got a gig in a church that morning, but for the rest of the day I'll probably just stay at home, as there is nowhere of interest to go. I'm not very strong on the social resources, in case you hadn't guessed.


nope didn't notice or guess anything about "social resources." not something i have paid attention too. :biggrin1:
 

TurkeyWithaSunburn

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That's ludicrous.How can you possibly say that the Christians TOOK Christmas from Paganism?? So what,the Nativity was lifted from other sources,cos that is what Christmas is centred on,not the holly and ivy and yuletide logs stuff!
If Christmas means mass marketing and is for kids then that is only true for certain people and not a great many others,you can't possibly make such whopping generalizations.

Read and weep
Sol Invictus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Calboner

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I think this is called stating the 'bleedin' obvious.' Your arguement stops at the Old Testament,which if you care to look no one is disputing.What comes after that is the New Testament,which Jews do not accept as part of their beliefs as it puts Christ as the Son of God,which technically for Jews and Muslims is heresy, as the Messiah has yet to reveal himself to the world. As for your assertion that Christ never saw himself as the son of God then you clearly you have never read the Bible.Jesus in response to St.Peter unequivically declares himself to be both Christ and Son of God.Unless of course you know better.....? :biggrin1:
You claimed, in passages that I quoted in my post, (1) that Jesus "converted" the Apostles to Christianity, (2) that baptism as practiced by John the Baptist "signifies convertion [sic] from one set of beliefs to another," and (3) that "once you accept that Jesus as the Messiah you are immediately at odds with Old Testaments (and therefore Jewish) beliefs." I produced historical arguments refuting every one of these assertions. If my arguments are to be dismissed as "stating the 'bleedin' obvious," then your assertions are to be ranked even lower as denials of the "bleedin' obvious." But it is clear that the matters that I was stating were not and are not obvious at all: many people, yourself included, show themselves ignorant of them.

What you mean by saying that my argument "stops at" the Old Testament I can't tell, but in any case I was speaking of conditions in Judea during the time of Jesus, which are not covered in the Old Testament at all.

The phrase "son of God" is ambiguous. In Abrahamic theism, all human beings are children of God. What is novel in the Christian idea is that one man is THE Son of God in the sense of having only God as a father in place of a human father. As I said in my previous post: "The specifically Christian idea is not the idea that Jesus was the messiah but the idea that he was the Son of God (in some special sense that does not apply to all human beings) and God incarnate, and that idea was only introduced long after his death. " I don't deny that there are passages in the New Testament in which Jesus is described as and describes himself as the Son of God; there are also passages in the Gospel of John in which he is described as God incarnate. I was speaking of history, not of Christian theology. And it is old, old news among biblical historians that the idea of the incarnation dates from long after the life of Jesus. The oldest sources of the NT do not have a slightest trace of it.

The main point here is that Jesus was not in any sense a Christian, and neither were his first followers. [<--Sentence corrected to insert the qualifier "first."] The essential ideas of Christianity were formed by St. Paul and by the authors of the gospels at least a generation after the death of Jesus. This is common knowledge among biblical historians.
 
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gymfresh

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Like a lot of American Jews, I grew up not taking the Jewish religion very seriously but being very sensitive about NOT being Christian and NOT participating in any kind of Christian religious observance. Every year at Christmas time, this becomes a live issue. ... Hitherto, the difficulty was just to get through the season without compromising my self-respect for the sake of social cohesion. ... But lately, I have become more conscious of social isolation on this holiday, as it is occasion when families gather together, while I am always left on my own.

I wonder what sorts of difficulty other Jewish members of this site go through at this time of year.

Calboner, your post could apply to any non-Christian at this time of year, both those of religious faith and those without. It can be lonely if you're not part of the group that embraces and rejoices in the holiday, and even if you are it can be an awkward or unfulfilling time if your family is less observant or of a different faith. It's a fine line to walk between just ignoring what the majority are getting all excited about (whether for ecclesiatical or commercial reasons) and pointing out "not my holiday, thanks".

I'm particularly curious about your first sentiment; i.e., being very sensitive about NOT being Christian. That can be read more than one way, and I'm not entirely sure which way you meant it: being sensitive (deliberate, conscious) not to give the impression that you are Christian and part of all this ritual, or being sensitive (touchy or just keenly aware) about others assuming that you are Christian. My own family's experience seems to be more of the latter.

Being of mixed religious tradition (Jewish and Roman Catholic), but with parents who raised us with no sect whatsoever, I always felt walled off from all religions and an outsider/observer to everything that was going on. Christmas was for "them" and Hanukkah was for "them". Trying to participate in either was rather unfulfilling.

I see analogies in other social constructs. In college, there was a big divide between Greek (fraternity & sorority) life and non-Greek (or GDI, as they called themselves). Independents could observe and peek inside Greek life, but it was nothing like actually being Greek. Our many events bypassed them altogether. Yeah, there were a few members for whom Greek life meant little and they strayed, but for most of the rest of us it was tremendously satisfying to be initiated and embraced into our group.

I've made stabs at celebrating Christmas, particularly since formally becoming a Christian. But it's weird without my family on board. My partner is staunchly non-religious and not officially claimed by any sect, since his parents didn't have him or his brother baptized (a minor point of pride for him). This time of year we go through the motions of attending parties and buying gifts for people, but it still feels strange to me.

Sometimes I wonder whether I would have a very different outlook if I came from a religious or even a single-faith family. I'm constantly curious how others perceive religion when they come from a mixed religion background, and whether Baptist-Episcopalian kids have a different take on things, coming from a mixed but Christian heritage, than Jewish-Presbyterian kids do.

What do you think Christians in New York, or any other place where the school system observes a holiday, feel about the high holy days in September? Do you suppose they're sensitive about not observing the time of reflection and atonement? Is it a matter of numbers?
 

witch

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As a Pagan &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. Happy Holidays is as far as I go with strangers ( friends I show more respect ) &#8230;. if they want to so call enlighten me to their true meaning for the season, then they may do so, to my back as I walk away.
OT.. Please note : I don&#8217;t think I can face another cup of Eggnog &#8230;&#8230; one more Party to go, then kindly shot me