have the fucking kid and then tidy your damn room

Nienna

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Originally posted by madame_zora@Apr 30 2005, 07:13 PM
There's not a sane medical professional alive that will tell you (from a physical standpoint) that having an abortion is more stressful to the body than carrying a child!
Sorry, the "rights" of a fetus don't exist in the real world, and neighter do the "rights" of a child. If you care about fetus's rights, you have to care about childrens' for your philosophies to make sense. Also, philosophies must be grounded in reality to be relevant. If you say XY and Z ought to happen, but have every reason to believe it will in fact go another way, you are spouting wasted noise. What you are saying is that a fetus has more rights for consideration than the young girl who's already here, I ask you, why? Just because it's "unborn" does not make it holy!


Then again, you could just consider her "damaged goods" and punish her for her ill doings by forcing her to bear the child, I know I'd be thrilled to discover I came into the world in such a way, I feel guilty for my birth as it is. Maybe not everyone loves their Mother enough to care about what she went through, but I know I do.
[post=306750]Quoted post[/post]​

Yes, there are risks involved in being a young teen and having a child, but there are risks with abortion as well.

Perhaps the rights of a fetus should exist in the real world. And what do you mean about caring for fetus rights as childrens rights? Most people do care about the rights of a child, to be fed, sheltered, loved, clothed, provided for. Those that don't get their children taken away.

Noone ever said that an unborn child is "holy" It merely has the right to live and be loved whether it is with the person who gives birth to it or not. That child didn't ask to be created, why should it have to die just because it isn't wanted by the person who created it.?

Madame Z I am sorry to hear you feel guilty about being born. No matter what difficuties I had with my pregnancies and deliveries, I hope that my children never feel guilty about being born.

Pregnancy and birth are natural occurances of life. Abortion isn't, it is a man made tool of destruction.
 

Hockeytiger

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ARRRGHHHH!!!! My beef here is with Jeremy Cooke, the author of this article, and the BCC, the publisher.

The author was very deceptive. It was his intent to stir up a hornet’s nest over a rather ordinary and appropriate capacity hearing by turning it into a political injustice by stating the words, [Florida] “state court…prevents girl from terminating pregnancy.” Unfortunately, it looks like he was successful with this forum. This case has NOTHING to do with this girl’s right to an abortion.

The byline is a lie. In no way has the State of Florida told her that she cannot have an abortion.

The first sentence after the byline is a carefully crafted mistruth. The injunction in itself does not prevent her from having an abortion. It merely delays the decision until a capacity hearing has been conducted.

Not personally knowing all the facts of the case, I will presume the author got the second, third and fourth sentences correct.

The fifth sentence is again a carefully crafted mistruth for the same reasons. The injunction in and of itself does not prevent her from having an abortion.

The sixth sentence reveals the author’s true motives.

The seventh sentence is incorrect and shows the author’s complete ignorance of informed consent law. If a person does not have the capacity to form informed consent over a medical procedure, that person, minor or adult, does not have the right to make that medical decision for himself.

The eighth and final sentence shows the article’s true author. It is obvious that Howard Simon or one of his subordinate’s called the author and fed him the story. Rather than do his journalistic duty by educating himself about the issues concerning this case, the author chose to be a mouthpiece for the girl’s lawyers.

Folks, the State of Florida did the responsible thing here. They are arguing that a capacity hearing should be conducted to determine whether or not she should be allowed to make such decisions for herself. I’m no psychiatrist, but I find it difficult to believe that there are many 13 year olds with such capacity. Presently, the State of Florida is NOT arguing that she be forced to carry the child to term. Florida is arguing that she lacks capacity to make the decision, and as such, her guardian should make the decision.

There is no need for the mindless knee-jerk liberal and conservative reactions just because the word “abortion” was used.
 

madame_zora

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I feel sad to know that my Mother was brutalized by a man 17 years her senior during her pregnancy as well as after my birth. I didn't ask him to do this, but I can hardly say it makes me happy to know.

Pregnancy is also a natural occurance after rape, but that hardly makes it a good idea. Many diseases are natural occurances, but we still operate on cancer patients, don't we?

I don't intend to change anyone's mind here, just stating my own opinion that forcing a 13 year old to have a baby when she clearly isn't old enough to grant consent to have sex is abhorrent. Nienna you never addressed that even though I said it twice. She is a child, and you clearly have no compassion for her.
 

blackwood

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Originally posted by madame_zora@May 1 2005, 06:41 AM
I feel sad to know that my Mother was brutalized by a man 17 years her senior during her pregnancy as well as after my birth. I didn't ask him to do this, but I can hardly say it makes me happy to know.

Pregnancy is also a natural occurance after rape, but that hardly makes it a good idea. Many diseases are natural occurances, but we still operate on cancer patients, don't we?

I don't intend to change anyone's mind here, just stating my own opinion that forcing a 13 year old to have a baby when she clearly isn't old enough to grant consent to have sex is abhorrent. Nienna you never addressed that even though I said it twice. She is a child, and you clearly have no compassion for her.
[post=306859]Quoted post[/post]​


What will be will be, bless our smaller governments.

On thought here is that if she has the surgery terminating the pregnancy or not, there should be scheduled a: Peniectomy(sp) with Castration for who ever was the f***er.
 

madame_zora

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No, Blackwood, that would be cruel and unusual punishment. Just the dirty little whore women need to be taught a lesson, the f**cker gets to go on f**cking and ruining lives without consequence. This is a stupid discussion.

@ Hockeytiger, do you really expect us to believe that Florida will expediate this hearing in time for her to make the decision to abort if that is her wish? You have more faith than I do if that's the case! No, this is a stalling tactic and a transparent one at that.
 

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Originally posted by madame_zora@May 1 2005, 01:41 AM
No, Blackwood, that would be cruel and unusual punishment. Just the dirty little whore women need to be taught a lesson, the f**cker gets to go on f**cking and ruining lives without consequence. This is a stupid discussion.

@ Hockeytiger, do you really expect us to believe that Florida will expediate this hearing in time for her to make the decision to abort if that is her wish? You have more faith than I do if that's the case! No, this is a stalling tactic and a transparent one at that.
[post=306870]Quoted post[/post]​

Again I will ask you to stop making knee jerk political judgments. This is not about abortion. At least not until the capacity hearing is held. You need to think it through. If the motive of the executive agency in this case was indeed primarily political, they, in fact, would have let her have the abortion.

Secondly, the executive agency does not set the schedule, the judge does. The executive agency simply cannot delay the hearing for long. Based on my experience with capacity hearings, it should be conducted within a few of weeks, especially due to the urgency of the issue.
 

madame_zora

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Okay, with a little googling I found out more about the particulars here:

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/04/29/State/Ju...at_DCF_ov.shtml

Of course, it seemed obvious to me that well adjusted 13 year olds don't have babies, but it turns out that she was in state care, having been removed from her own home for "abuse or neglect" and they have been unable to find foster parents for her. She's run away several times and the facility didn't even report her absense to the police. She was reportedly gone from the facility for a month when she became pregnant, but nobody cared that she was gone until she wanted to get an abortion. Where does it end for this girl?

Florida's law does not require a minor to get parental consent for abortion, the only reason this came before the courts was because the DCF that didn't see to her interests to begin with is now opposing her abortion. Hockeytiger, that sure sounds political to me!
 

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Originally posted by madame_zora@May 1 2005, 09:50 AM

Of course, it seemed obvious to me that well adjusted 13 year olds don't have babies
[post=306881]Quoted post[/post]​
Then of course there are the extreme exceptions. Back in the Stone Age when I was a wee lad of 15 I was told by my friend Frank about a classmate and another classmates sister who were about to have a child. He was 15 she was 14 and had become pregnant at 13. These were 2 kids from wonderful loving families who were both at the top of the class acacemically. I remember being in something of a state of shock. 2 kids who were from good homes ending up in this situation? Getting to the end of their story it is now several years letter, they had the baby (they were from strict Catholic families where abortion was not allowed, although pre-marital sex apparently was :huh: ). They got married once the state laws said it was legal and in a screwy twist are still together. I found this last little tidbit on a neighborhood forum board over on msn from the older sister of the girl.

The thing is I learned early on that background is no guarentee, even well adjusted 13 year olds have babies, if for no other reason than hormones racing wildly out of control and split seconds of lack of consequential thinking. Just how to handle these pregnancies is something I cannot answer, I am torn to the left and then to the right.

As to the initial posting, I can't figure a good, proper and fitting response since I feel the girl should be entitled to the abortion if she so chooses. The real challenge here is her future. If she has the abortion it's a decision she must live with for life but if she has the child what are the odds the state will allow her to keep and raise the child? Either way she looses and so does society as a whole.


The preceding were semi-delusional ramblings from an old queer from a supposedly liberal background after a 28 hours without sleep.
 

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Even if she was immature abortion is still the right choice. Therefore if she wanted and abortion she was really mature and had her head together. If the circumstances aren't right eg financially or domestically then 'hell yeah' a girl should be able to have an abortion. Plus there is an overpopulation in places and it saves State money because most likely she would be on benefits. That's hardly a concern but I'm just saying her having a kid is bad for everyone so why prevent her from saving her life and not being held down with a child when she doesn't even want one?

How do these people get in positions where they can make such stupid decisions and be listened to?
 

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Originally posted by madame_zora@May 1 2005, 03:50 AM
Okay, with a little googling I found out more about the particulars here:

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/04/29/State/Ju...at_DCF_ov.shtml

Of course, it seemed obvious to me that well adjusted 13 year olds don't have babies, but it turns out that she was in state care, having been removed from her own home for "abuse or neglect" and they have been unable to find foster parents for her. She's run away several times and the facility didn't even report her absense to the police. She was reportedly gone from the facility for a month when she became pregnant, but nobody cared that she was gone until she wanted to get an abortion. Where does it end for this girl?

Florida's law does not require a minor to get parental consent for abortion, the only reason this came before the courts was because the DCF that didn't see to her interests to begin with is now opposing her abortion. Hockeytiger, that sure sounds political to me!
[post=306881]Quoted post[/post]​

No No No. At this point the State of Florida is NOT opposing her abortion. Florida has moved that this child does not have the capacity to make medical decisions for herself, which is a reasonable point of view. She is only 13 years old after all and seems to have demonstrated repeated immature behavior by running away multiple times and probably prostituting herself, which is how I theorize she got pregnant in the first place. Whether or not it is in her best interests to have an abortion is NOT at issue just yet. From my understanding of the case, the girl’s capacity to make medical decisions for herself is what is at issue here. (BTW I do agree that it is in her best interests to have an abortion, and almost certainly that will be the ultimate outcome of the case.)

Ultimately, I agree with you that the state will oppose her having an abortion, but not for political reasons. Their reasons will be legal and bureaucratic. Florida law seems to mandate that the state agencies withhold consent for abortions for juvenile wards of the state. (It is an offensive and stupid law to be sure, which is why the ACLU is involved.)

If the reasons for the state’s actions in this case were genuinely political, they would have kept their mouths shut and let the abortion be performed. The physician would most likely have committed several torts, several crimes, and breached medical ethics by performing a medical procedure without proper consent being given. Your instinct right now is to cite the Florida law that does not require parental consent for a minor to have an abortion. It doesn’t matter. The child must still demonstrate capacity to give consent, which is quite difficult for a 13 year old.
 

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Hockeytiger, I can't really agree with your opinions about several things. First, I found no mention that she was prostituting or that that was how she got pregnant, but that's hardly the point for either of us. I think this is political for the same reasons Teri Schiavo's medical condition became so. I don't understand why you feel that if it was political, they would have allowed the abortion. The current trend is to disallow individual freedoms, which is what is happening here. It is my very firm opinion that the well being of a living person should supercede the "rights" of an unborn child, and I can see no way to justify forcing a 13 year old girl to carry a child to term which will undoubtably have very serious repercussions to her body long term. The longer she is forced to wait, the more difficult the procedure becomes, it won't take much interferance to make an abortion no longer a viable option, she is already into her second trimester.

If a girl who was abused at home goes on to be promiscuous, no one can feign surprise.
As a society, I wish we were more interested in her healing than her punishment. I find this case disgusting for that reason, whether she is seen as competant to make medical decisions or not, no one has cared about other aspects of her life up to this point. My compassion must go out to her for the life of horrors she has already endured, I can't see how bringing a child into the picture would benefit anyone, but that's just my opinion. I understand that you agree with that, but I still see this as an opportunity for a "red state" to further their cause.
 

Hockeytiger

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Originally posted by madame_zora@May 1 2005, 12:28 PM
Hockeytiger, I can't really agree with your opinions about several things. First, I found no mention that she was prostituting or that that was how she got pregnant, but that's hardly the point for either of us. I think this is political for the same reasons Teri Schiavo's medical condition became so. I don't understand why you feel that if it was political, they would have allowed the abortion. The current trend is to disallow individual freedoms, which is what is happening here. It is my very firm opinion that the well being of a living person should supercede the "rights" of an unborn child, and I can see no way to justify forcing a 13 year old girl to carry a child to term which will undoubtably have very serious repercussions to her body long term. The longer she is forced to wait, the more difficult the procedure becomes, it won't take much interferance to make an abortion no longer a viable option, she is already into her second trimester.

If a girl who was abused at home goes on to be promiscuous, no one can feign surprise.
As a society, I wish we were more interested in her healing than her punishment. I find this case disgusting for that reason, whether she is seen as competant to make medical decisions or not, no one has cared about other aspects of her life up to this point. My compassion must go out to her for the life of horrors she has already endured, I can't see how bringing a child into the picture would benefit anyone, but that's just my opinion. I understand that you agree with that, but I still see this as an opportunity for a "red state" to further their cause.
[post=306935]Quoted post[/post]​

First of all, the girl is a juvenile runaway. Juvenile runaways commonly prostitute themselves because it is the only real way for them to make a living. The reason I brought it up was not to bring shame on her, but rather to show her immaturity. It is pretty hard to think of a situation in which juvenile prostitution is preferable to foster care and I’ve seen some pretty bad foster care in my time.

As for the political reasons for allowing the abortion, think about the headlines in the religious media after it happens. “Doctor performs illegal abortion on 13 year old without consent” That headline alone is worth six figures worth of donations to pro-life groups. Secondly, conservatives can make a decent case for the forfeiture of the doctor’s medical license. Why bother to make a feeble attempt to stop one 13 year old from getting an abortion when you can instead shut down a clinic that performs abortions? To put it more simply, why stop only one abortion when you can stop hundreds instead?
 

Nienna

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Originally posted by Nienna@Apr 30 2005, 12:41 PM
1) I have to admit that at 13 she is not responsible and should not be forced to have a child she doesn't want.

2) But at the same time I think abortion is disgusting and would rather see her give it up for adoption.

No one person can righfully decide the fate of another.
[post=306607]Quoted post[/post]​

That was my origional post. I was merely stateing that ideally I would rather see her take other measures to solve her " I don't want to have a baby" delema. I admit that her knowing she isn't able to support and provide for a baby is a great deal more mature than some girls her age who get pregnant and think its all "playing house" from there. But at the same time, just because she doesn't want the child doesn't mean abortion is her only option. Abortions can have drastically more fatal and severe consequences than following thru with the pregnancy and giving it up for adoption to some people would love, care and cherish that baby. I am not saying she should be disallowed to have her choice, I am just saying that some of us would rather see her choose another alternative.

Madame Z I'm sorry if you feel I had no compassion towards the girl, that was not my intent at all. The fact is there are two lives involved in this situation, and to me killing one isn't the only answer.
 

madame_zora

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No one's listening to a fucking word I say.

For now the THIRD time, if she isn't old enough to make medical decisions, then she wasn't old enough to grant consent to have sex.

There NO evidence she was prostituting so why say that unless you are trying to put her down?

It's a complete lie that abortion is more traumatic to the body than delivery, utter nonsense.

If you are against abortion, DON'T HAVE ONE! but stay the fuck out of other people's business. Whatever anyone wants for her is irrelevant, she's the one who has to go through it, I wish we would just leave people to make up their own minds. No one else will be carrying or delivering the baby, and she doesn't want it!

In technical terms, she was probably raped, at least statutory rape because of her age. Are we really suggesting rape victims be forced to carry babies from their assailants? If we are, stop the boat, I'm getting off.

How would any of YOU feel to learn that you were the product of your mother being raped? Or even being 13? Not a great way to start a life. Who wants me to start posting statisctics on the liklihood of her baby being perfectly healthy? Then the likelihood of it being adopted if it isn't? Then we can discuss the awesome time that children who grow up in state homes (not foster care!) have in life. Please, if we're going to do this, let's deal with reality and not some idiotic fantasyland.
 

steve319

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Originally posted by madame_zora@May 2 2005, 12:23 AM
In technical terms, she was probably raped, at least statutory rape because of her age. Are we really suggesting rape victims be forced to carry babies from their assailants? If we are, stop the boat, I'm getting off.
[post=307071]Quoted post[/post]​
Good point. I think it's easy to forget that she's a victim here too.

This is a tragic situation all around, and, clearly, this girl has been victimized enough. It's a no-win all around.
 

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You think noone is listening to you? OMG.
Have you ever read about what exactly happens when an abortion takes place? Have you ever seen one? Have you LOOKED at stats? Here are a few....

47% of abortions are performed on women who have already had one or more abortions.
43% of women will have had at least one abortion by the time they are 45 years old
The majority of women getting abortions are young; 52% are younger than 25 years old and 19% are teenagers. The abortion rate is highest for those women aged 18 to 19 (56 per 1,000 in 1992.)
Nearly 40% of teen pregnancies end in abortion.
In 1996 there were approximately 274,000 abortions among teens

Despite the use of local anesthesia, a full 97% of women having abortions reported experiencing pain during the procedure, which more than a third described as "intense," "severe" or "very severe." Compared to other pains, researchers have rated the pain from abortion as more painful than a bone fracture, about the same as cancer pain, though not as painful as an amputation.

Studies also reveal that younger women tend to find abortion more painful than do older adults, and that patients typically found abortion more painful than their doctors or counselors expected. The use of more powerful general anesthetics can reduce the pain, but significantly increases the risk of cervical injury or uterine perforation.

Complications such as these are common, as are bleeding, hemorrhage, laceration of the cervix, menstrual disturbance, inflammation of the reproductive organs, bladder or bowel perforation, and serious infection.

Even more harmful long term physical complications from abortion may surface later. For example, overzealous currettage can damage the lining of the uterus and lead to permanent infertility. Overall, women who have abortions face an increased risk of ectopic (tubal) pregnancy and a more than doubled risk of future sterility. Perhaps most important of all, the risk of these sorts of complications, along with risks of future miscarriage, increase with each subsequent abortion.

There is strong evidence that abortion increases the risk of breast cancer. A study of more than 1,800 women appearing in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute in 1994 found that overall, women having abortions increased their risk of getting breast cancer before age 45 by 50%. For women under 18 with no previous pregnancies, having an abortion after the 8th week increased the risk of breast cancer 800%. Women with a family history of breast cancer fared even worse. All 12 women participating in the study who had abortions before 18 and had a family history of breast cancer themselves got cancer before age 45.

Researchers on the after-effects of abortion have identified a pattern of psychological problems known as Post-Abortion Syndrome (PAS). Women suffering PAS may experience drug and alcohol abuse, personal relationship disorders, sexual dysfunction, repeated abortions, communications difficulties, damaged self-esteem, and even attempt suicide. Post-Abortion Syndrome appears to be a type of pattern of denial which may last for five to ten years before emotional difficulties surface.


Stats on teen pregnancy
Over eight hundred thousand teens become pregnant each year.
10% of women aged 15-19 become pregnant each year.
19% of women who are sexually active between the ages of 15 and 19 become pregnant each year.
34% of women get pregnant at least once before the age of 20.
The United States teen pregnancy rate has delcined 28% between 1990 and 2000.
78% of teen pregnancies are unplanned.
60% of teen pregnancies are in 18 and 19 year olds.
Teen pregnancies are much higher in the United States than any other developed country - double that of Canada and at least four times France and Germany

The reason for lack of prenatal care is usually delayed pregnancy testing, denial or even fear of telling others about the pregnancy.While facing the grim realities of teen pregnancy is not pleasant, this is not the picture that has to be painted. Teen mothers are perfectly capable of having a healthy pregnancy and a healthy baby. With the proper nutrition, early prenatal care and good screening for potential problems the majority of these potential problems will not come to light. While some tend to think that you can't teach a teen mother anything about her body or baby, it's really a ridiculous notion. Many of the teen mothers who take active roles in their care do go on to have healthy babies, despite the other hardships that they will face in their lives. Support from the families and communities is a must for the young, new family to be successful.


There is proof that abortions can be JUST AS DEADLY to the mother as teen pregnancy. BUT It has also been proven that IF a teen girl gets good prenatal health care when she first learns she is pregnant, than the chances of her and her child having a successful and healthy birth are WAYYYY better than if she doesn't get prenatal care.


http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures.html
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures_2.html

Look at that and then tell me it isn't a life that should have just as much respect as the young girl who is pregnant. Are you saying one life is more valuable than another???
 

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Nienna, now more than ever it is clear we will never agree. I think those "stats" are ridiculous, even a lazy google search could have found a non right-wing medical site, you're out to prove a fundie point and I will no longer waste my time here.
 

MASSIVEPKGO_CHUCK

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Originally posted by madame_zora@May 2 2005, 04:23 AM
No one's listening to a fucking word I say.

For now the THIRD time, if she isn't old enough to make medical decisions, then she wasn't old enough to grant consent to have sex.

There NO evidence she was prostituting so why say that unless you are trying to put her down?

It's a complete lie that abortion is more traumatic to the body than delivery, utter nonsense.

If you are against abortion, DON'T HAVE ONE! but stay the fuck out of other people's business. Whatever anyone wants for her is irrelevant, she's the one who has to go through it, I wish we would just leave people to make up their own minds. No one else will be carrying or delivering the baby, and she doesn't want it!

In technical terms, she was probably raped, at least statutory rape because of her age. Are we really suggesting rape victims be forced to carry babies from their assailants? If we are, stop the boat, I'm getting off.

How would any of YOU feel to learn that you were the product of your mother being raped? Or even being 13? Not a great way to start a life. Who wants me to start posting statisctics on the liklihood of her baby being perfectly healthy? Then the likelihood of it being adopted if it isn't? Then we can discuss the awesome time that children who grow up in state homes (not foster care!) have in life. Please, if we're going to do this, let's deal with reality and not some idiotic fantasyland.
[post=307071]Quoted post[/post]​

Ease up there, MZ. I agree with you wholeheartedly. This girl is underage, and by all rights lacks the fundamental maturity to make decisions like this. In all aspects of the word, she probably was raped, and more than likely would not want to willingly remember it.

But there is also the right to choose whether or not this could've been shot down if she knew this was going to happen. HELLO!! anybody out remember a recent medical discovery in the form of a capsule to terminate this?

It beats the living fucking hell out of me when adults cannot perceive that this child doesn't desire to procreate. Even more so than the child must've realized that this was something she couldn't handle. So now who lacks the more maturity in this case now, huh? The people who don't want her to make that decision, or the girl herself who allowed this to happen??

Everybody here who fucking honesty believes that she doesn't deserve the right to make that decision better take a long hard look at yourselves, and really, really hope to god this never hits real close to home.

Awright, that's my monday morning rant for the day. I'm going to find some advil, and see if my bp meds have any refills.

And Madam Zora, relax! We all here mean no harm, well at least you know I don't
. ;)
 

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Originally posted by Nienna@May 2 2005, 07:11 AM
Are you saying one life is more valuable than another???
[post=307092]Quoted post[/post]​
YES. that is EXACTLY what we are saying. an extant life ALWAYS has priority over a potential or unborn one. and that ain't my opinion, it's a biological fact - we know that ALL placental mammals will miscarry in order to save their own lives, even those which will normally fight to the death to protect offspring they have already given birth to.

statistics are never gonna be much use in this argument, because they're too easy for either side to formulate and spin. I've known plenty of girls who've had abortions and none of them suffered any long-term health or sexual problems. on the other hand some girls I've known who've had kids have been unable to recover, physiologically, from the alteration of body chemistry that pregnancy causes - meaning that after they've given birth they suffer from long-term illness and generally feeling like crap all the time. and that ain't a nice thing to see when it's someone you've known for years.

the fact is that both abortion AND carrying to term involve different risks for different people in different circumstances, and nobody can do much about that. humans as a species are remarkably poorly adapted to childbearing in physical terms, mainly because we've evolved to walk on two legs with all the physical and physiological factors that entails. the issue here is not one of medical risk, because nobody can predict or neutralize the risks from either course of action. flinging supposed hazard statistics at each other is futile at best and pure scaremongering at worst.