have the fucking kid and then tidy your damn room

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by madame_zora@Apr 30 2005, 05:42 PM
I think it's horrible that our government stepped in to torture her further.

[post=306681]Quoted post[/post]​

There may not be a hell after death so we must make she and her familly and the child go through hell now.

Seriously, fundies can't have it both ways legally Fundies say that minors can't have abortions without consent of their parents. They can't just go down and have it done. What that means is that the parents have FULL RESPONSIBILITY for the child. So, following that logic it is totally up to the parents.

As I have said before about abortion. And I am going to have to disagree with you Pappy Living tissue dies during abortion. Living tissue dies during a gall bladder surgery. The question is when does living tissue become human and a citizen of the United States. Legally we have to look at legal documents, not the Bible. However, there is no mention in the Bible about abortion.

Abortion was practiced all throughout the dark and middle ages until the 20th century. In those days abortion was OK until the "quicking of the baby," (the term in the 19th century), the ability to feel the baby move by the mother to be or a person examining the mother-to-be who would know. (They weren't so legal then.)

IF the living tissue is a human being with a soul, the only way to justify killing it is that it is without an abortion the "living tissue" and the mother-to-be is going to die anyway. I am looking at this here from a religious issue and not a legal issue.

I'm not sure we want a healtj department ruling differently only what conditions it is okay to kill this "living tissue" and in which cases it not and those rules constantly changing.

Personally I don't think the fetus inside the woman gets a soul until it takes its first breath. Again this is a religious belief.

Constitutinally, I hate to say that a woman at the hospital can abort a child in labor. But then I don't want to outlaw morning after pills, early DNC after rapes and such. That would be horrible in my book. But there are several points to use in deciding in deciding the last point in a pregnancy the state will sanction abortion. The 22 days after conception until the heart beat is actually confirmed by a doctor. To me that is too early for the state to be getting involved.

Personally I think the best compromise is exactly what we have in place today. Leave it alone. We are not going to get a better policy that is straight down the middle. Anything else we do we will have a group of people controling a significant minority that don't agree. If I understand the present ruling it is the last trimester where hypotheticaly the fetus would live if were to be born unless diseased or malformed in some way.

We will never agree on this issue. But at least we know that the present policy for a fetus that is now an unborn baby is that the abiity to be born alive and well is protected and the right of the woman to control her own body up to that point is also protected.

It is a compromise. In a pluralistic society we have to have laws that are in the middle. Even 51 % on just one election shouldn't have the right to totally control the 49 %.

 

[jonb]

Yanno, Nienna, it would've been nice if you'd cited, I don't know, PEER-REVIEWED JOURNALS! A URL like "Abortion No" sounds like an activist URL.

My own opinion on abortion? It's wrong, but then again, I'm male, so I'll never have to go through one. But I do feel that the pro-lifers are also wrong just because of their fanaticism, including their desire to outlaw contraception. I also feel that pro-lifers fail to realize that making abortions illegal does nothing to stop them; at least this way we can do it in the most healthy way possible. Now, let's look at the stats they claim:

800000 teens become pregnant every year? Well, there are only a little over
35 million girls under 18 in America. We'd see a LOT more teen pregnancy if that were true. The simple fact of the matter is, teen pregnancy rates have actually declined as long as we've kept track of that sorta thing. The number of single mothers has increased, though.

Greater risk of ectopic pregnancy, breast cancer, or sterility? Citation, please.

 

[Pappy]

And anybody who thinks 13 year old girls aren't sexually active should stay under their rock.

 

[madame_zora]

Plenty of people who feel abortion is wrong are still pro-choice! Jonb, you illustrate that point well. Although it may not be a choice you'd personally make, you can still respect another person's opinion may be different from your own.

Too many people confuse pro-choice with pro-abortion! That's absurd, no one is excited to be in that situation to begin with, they are just trying to do the best they can with what they have to work with, like we all do. Freedom of choice keeps more women healthy, keeping pro-lifers away from abortion clinics would help dramatically in their emotional well being. Nothing I hate worse than a pro-lifer claiming to care about a woman's emotional recovery from abortion, when they're the very ones putting murder literature in their hands on the way in the door. When I need an afternoon's entertainment, I hang out and talk to these nutjobs (yeah, I need new hobbies)- they never fail to entertain.

 

[jonb]

Yeah, well, I can't imagine ANY woman who misses her period for a couple months and says "Oh, I think I'll have an abortion." It's a tough decision, one made all the more difficult by all this political shit.

 

[madame_zora]

Well, anyone doubting that this is just propaganda, consider this: No one has anything to say if she decides to keep the baby and deliver it, and she is at about ten times higher risk of complications than that of abortion. She needs no consent, no proof that she is getting prenatal care, no parent must accompany her to the delivery room. No father must be present through any of this, and HIS permission is not needed for anything. No, if she does what the psycho-christians want, it's smooth sailing. If she doesn't, she better prepare herself for legislation, humiliation, being screamed at and publicly confronted, pharmacists going off on her, and in the end perhaps forced to carry an unwanted child. Can you imagine how disgusting that would feel?

There is absolutley no viable argument against abortion rights other than personal beliefs, and those should NEVER be legislation. That is the entire purpose of the supposed separation of church and state- it's to protect the people from the church, not the reverse. Once we let religion start dictating law, we run into the increased problems of whose religion and what laws. These whackos will never adress the fact that personal rights pertain TO YOURSELF, not someone else. No one's personal rights give them permission to make judgements for others. If you believe in God, trust that he is qualified to judge others and stay the fuck out of it.

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by madame_zora@May 1 2005, 11:23 PM
No one's listening to a fucking word I say.

[post=307071]Quoted post[/post]​

Oh, I am. And if she is incapable of making a decision about abortion. How in the hell is she going to raise this child? What if it is a crack baby? We don't know. And the incidence of deformities of a baby born to a girl that young? She has no family support.

Now we will have two in the state custody to take care of and possibly another one again in 13 years.



Jana,
I do think though it goes both ways here:

The church needs to be protected from the state
And the state needs to be protected from the church.
And the people need to be protected from to much unwanted and unasked instrusion from both.


Freddie

 

[13788]

ravenously:

Originally posted by Freddie53@May 2 2005, 10:35 AM

Seriously, fundies can't have it both ways

[post=307136]Quoted post[/post]​

Fundies are ALWAYS Trying to have it both ways.

And, from what I've seen, those rotton bastards get it "both" ways all too often.

 

[jonb]

An Exodus reference?

 

[Nienna]

Originally posted by Dr Rock+May 2 2005, 07:55 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr Rock &#064; May 2 2005, 07:55 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by Nienna@May 2 2005, 07:11 AM
Are you saying one life is more valuable than another???

[post=307092]Quoted post[/post]​

YES. that is EXACTLY what we are saying. an extant life ALWAYS has priority over a potential or unborn one. and that ain&#39;t my opinion, it&#39;s a biological fact - we know that ALL placental mammals will miscarry in order to save their own lives, even those which will normally fight to the death to protect offspring they have already given birth to.

[post=307134]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b]

So your saying that even though that baby has a heartbeat and central nervous system its not existant? nice logic.

Originally posted by Pappy@May 2 2005, 05:13 PM
And anybody who thinks 13 year old girls aren&#39;t sexually active should stay under their rock.

[post=307249]Quoted post[/post]​

Nicely said&#33;

<!--QuoteBegin-jonb@May 2 2005, 05:37 PM
Yeah, well, I can&#39;t imagine ANY woman who misses her period for a couple months and says "Oh, I think I&#39;ll have an abortion." It&#39;s a tough decision, one made all the more difficult by all this political shit.

[post=307257]Quoted post[/post]​

[/quote]

No they are just taught to use it as birth control.




OMFG
I can&#39;t believe how freely you people like to throw CHURCH and RELIGION into this equation. I NEVER ONCE said a damn thing about it, and here you go spouting Fundie bullshit. Who has the problem here?

A person cannot rightfully have thier own opninion around here with out being labeled and ridiculed because thier beliefs reflect something else?

I never said abortion should be illegal or unavailable I said "THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS" Why does it have to be keep it and do a shitty job raiseing it or kill it? PLEASE TELL ME THAT.

And for the "abortion no.org" pictures, you try typeing &#39;abortion pictures&#39; into google and just see where it leads you. All I wanted was some pictures and believe it or not that was a tough one to find seeing as how most the sites out there are christian. and I knew damn well that this would happen so I purposely stayed away from those site.

As for my stats, most of them I pulled from the CDC, sorry if YOU don&#39;t like them. as for the others, I found those off websites where it was niether pro choice nor pro life. it was simply medical stats. Sorry if at 2 am I don&#39;t have time to run to the nearest medical library and do research and repeat ver betum everything I find.

This discusion has gotten ridicoulously out of hand. Even the people who said they were done here, have come back.

 

[madame_zora]

*disclaimer- anyone tired of my rants, skip to the next page*

Nienna, I have no issue at all for you having opinions other than mine, for yourself&#33; I have serious problems when it becomes a situation where you think your opinion should supercede mine legally. I posed several moral questions to you, all of which you ignored while you ranted statistics that were slanted, if not straight out lies. I found the site you copied those from verbatim and it was as pro-life as it gets, so you just told a whopper again saying it was impartial&#33;

Whenever I get really tweaked about something (like I am about this), I research my ass off. I spent about four hours today looking at sites, and I didn&#39;t find even one that wasn&#39;t pro-life or pro-choice. I did, however remember what I was mad about.

Back in college, as a psychology student, I worked in a rape crisis center part time. I answered phones and did light typing and filing, nothing very involved as I was not a counsellor. I encountered an issue that would change the course of my life, so I&#39;ll share that here. Rape victims are sad women, I learned not to look them in the eye because they were afraid of even that much contact. One day, a 12 year old girl came in, noticably pregnant (probably four months and starting to show) and cheerful as hell. She talked to me for quite a while as she was early for her appointment. The father of her baby was her own father, and she didn&#39;t know that the baby was the result of sex, which she also didn&#39;t know that her father wasn&#39;t suppoed to make her do. She announced proudly to me that she had been "blessed by the Lord" and was going to have a baby, babies come from God. I was living in a rural part of Kentucky at that time and having grown up in the city I had never met such an innocent and naive person in my life. I began to fill up with a kind of rage I can barely describe.
I saw this girl over the course of the next several weeks as she continued counselling and gradually came to understand what had in fact happened, why she&#39;d been removed from her home, what was happening in her body, how society would perceive her conception as opposed to what she had originally believed, it was horrendous. Eventually, she only looked at the floor, like everyone else.

I began having dreams of killing that bastard for what he&#39;d done, I was only five years older than that girl. She had the baby, I never heard how it was. She developed toxemia and was bedridden the last three months of the preganacy and stopped coming to the clinic. I left shortly thereafter.

Questions came to mind of a moral issue for me. I was looking at going into private practise, and you don&#39;t get to choose your clients- they choose you. What was I going to do when an abusive man came into my office confessing his sins and asking for my help as a counsellor? At that time, I was sure I would have suggested suicide as the only suitable solution. I realised for certain that I lack the impartiality that is necessary to be an effective counsellor, and I had no plan B. I eventually dropped out of colloege with only six months to go because I never was able to figure out a way to use the education I&#39;d invested so much time in without having to confront potential molesters. I switched over to philosophy but even that didn&#39;t assuage the anger. Nothing has since.

Sure, punish the dirty little whores, they asked for it, right? She was in the care of the state too, I guess this hit very close to that situation for me. I am pro-CHOICE because there are too many situations where serious consideration is needed, and statistics real or imaginary are just ridiculous. Condemning women for preganacy is absolutely absurd, we can&#39;t get pregnant alone. Go spend time with rape victims and get to know them before you tell me that women should be forced to carry babies they don&#39;t want. Go meet and talk to pregnant youths before you tell me they really should have known about contraception. Bullshit, pure and simple.

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by Nienna+May 3 2005, 07:28 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Nienna &#064; May 3 2005, 07:28 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by Dr Rock@May 2 2005, 07:55 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Nienna

@May 2 2005, 07:11 AM
Are you saying one life is more valuable than another???

[post=307092]Quoted post[/post]​

YES. that is EXACTLY what we are saying. an extant life ALWAYS has priority over a potential or unborn one. and that ain&#39;t my opinion, it&#39;s a biological fact - we know that ALL placental mammals will miscarry in order to save their own lives, even those which will normally fight to the death to protect offspring they have already given birth to.

[post=307134]Quoted post[/post]​

So your saying that even though that baby has a heartbeat and central nervous system its not existant? nice logic.

[post=307390]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

ex·is·tent: Having life or being; existing.

ex·tant: Still in existence; not destroyed, lost, or extinct.

I didn&#39;t say that a fetus wasn&#39;t alive, or whatever definition you care to apply to it. I said that the life of an animal that has already BEEN born always takes priority over the life of one that hasn&#39;t. and that has nothing to do with logic: as I pointed out, it&#39;s a fact of life, and if you wanna live down here on earth you can&#39;t really argue with it.

if you&#39;d actually bothered to read my previous post I wouldn&#39;t have had to type this one. that ain&#39;t really doing yourself any favors if you want people to take your arguments seriously.

 

[Knight]

Um...I think the deal is if you don&#39;t do what the Church says then you are somehow wrong and you have lower valued morals than what they teach in the Bible or at Sermons.

An abortion is the right choice, maybe neither are good or ideal but her having a child is worse than not having one. I&#39;m sure she&#39;s better able to decide whether or not she wants an abortion than to look after a baby for years, to keep a home and secure finances etc.

Having said that, some girls do become attached to the (unborn) baby. Don&#39;t know if this girl is but she should be left to decide for herself and not be forced or pressured into a decision.

 

[Nienna]

Originally posted by madame_zora@May 3 2005, 04:44 AM
*disclaimer- anyone tired of my rants, skip to the next page*

Nienna, I have no issue at all for you having opinions other than mine, for yourself&#33; I have serious problems when it becomes a situation where you think your opinion should supercede mine legally. I posed several moral questions to you, all of which you ignored while you ranted statistics that were slanted, if not straight out lies. I found the site you copied those from verbatim and it was as pro-life as it gets, so you just told a whopper again saying it was impartial&#33;

Whenever I get really tweaked about something (like I am about this), I research my ass off. I spent about four hours today looking at sites, and I didn&#39;t find even one that wasn&#39;t pro-life or pro-choice. I did, however remember what I was mad about.

[post=307416]Quoted post[/post]​

http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortions...ortionstats.htm
http://pregnancy.about.com/cs/teenpregnancy/
http://www.emedicinehealth.com/articles/38399-1.asp
http://www.womenshealthchannel.com/teenpregnancy/index.shtml
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5109a1.htm

These were the sites I read, and pulled info from, so if you look at those and tell me that they are pro choice then I think you have your head up your ass. They are neutral. If you googled and found Pro choice site with the same stats, good for you, guess what Stats can show up on more than one site.

As for your moral questions, I tried to answer your rants as best I could. But when you get upset and start saying fuck alot and yelling at people to mind thier own business, when your just as guilty at butting your nose in, then I don&#39;t tend to take you seriously.

Not ONCE did I say anyones opinion should superceed anyone else&#39;s.

I have a right to my opinion and you have a right to yours. What I don&#39;t agree with is the fact that since my opinion is different you all get your bandwagon and start saying religion is involved when noone said anything about religion in the first place. If anyone brought religion into this its you. Just because some people have different opinions doesn&#39;t make them a "fundie" if they don&#39;t agree with your choice.

No matter what that girl does, I hope she doesn&#39;t have any complications. Ideally it would be nice to see her give the baby up for adoption. NO where does it say anything about rape in her case, and at the same time it doesn&#39;t say if it was consentual. And yes 13 year old girls do consent to sex; whether they admit to themselves they are not mature enough to handle it in the first place is a whole other issue. If young people were more educated about preventing conception in the first place, this subject wouldn&#39;t be nearly as prevalent as it is. What is happening is that young girls have sex and think abortion is a form of birth control it isn&#39;t. Birth control is PREVENTING conception.

If a woman is raped or a victim of incest or her health is danger than I agree that abortion (if that is her choice) is an option that would help her immensley. But to use abortion because "you just don&#39;t wanna raise a child" is pure laziness. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

[Pappy]

The girl is getting her abortion.

 

[D_Barbi_Queue]

dammit Pappy, you beat me to it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5050300290.html

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. -- A judge ruled that a 13-year-old girl at the center of an abortion fight with the state may terminate her pregnancy, and Gov. Jeb Bush said Tuesday that the state will not appeal further.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

I think I have the perfect solution: we should just stone the little slut.

 

[madame_zora]

If religion&#39;s not involved, I&#39;ll be the first to apologise for the assumption, so Nienna, are you or are you not a Christian?

I yelled and started saying fuck a lot because you were ignoring what I was saying when I was being more polite. It didn&#39;t help, you still didn&#39;t answer me. (I asked about four times if a 13 year old could not legally make madical decisions for herself, could she legally consent to sex- and if not, wasn&#39;t the sex legally rape? All you answered is that 13 year olds DO consent to sex and didn&#39;t address the legal aspect at all. This is called having it both ways)

The difference between our arguments is that I&#39;m saying everyone should be able to evaluate their own conscience and make a decision based on that, and you seem to be saying that that shouldn&#39;t be the case. These are not equal arguments&#33; You keep posting that abortion is being used as birth control, but that&#39;s not always true. Nearly half the women who get abortions were using some form of birth control, and it failed (somewhere in the high 40&#39;s percentile). I&#39;m sure you&#39;re aware of the 1 to 5% failure rate of condoms, birth control pills, foams, jellies, creams, and even the depo-provera shot? There is condom breakage as well. I don&#39;t see any reason to force people who clearly do not wish to become parents to do so just because of the error rate of our current technology, do you?

Adoption IS an option, and I&#39;m pretty sure that people are aware of it&#39;s existance. Not everyone is going to be willing to undergo a full term preganacy and delivery for a child they never wanted in the first place. For those who feel it&#39;s the best option, it&#39;s there for them, it&#39;s one of the options available in CHOICE. For those who don&#39;t want it, do you really think they&#39;d get good prenatal care for themselves, stop drinking/smoking/drugging for the benefit of the unborn baby? Not likely&#33; Have you ever seen crack babies? It&#39;s a beautiful thing, really. I&#39;m sure God wants this.

Do you think that if someone doesn&#39;t share your moral views, they should be forced to play by your rules anyway? That&#39;s the impression I am getting.

Being free to post your opinion does not give you any protection from other people posting theirs in response&#33; If you don&#39;t like this rule, go somewhere else where people think more like you.

Lastly, you posted pics of abortions that you later said you specifically looked for. If that wasn&#39;t meant to be inflamatory, I don&#39;t know what the purpose could have been. It was a typical fundie move, so if you&#39;re not a fundie, the conclusion drawn from your behavior is understandable. We only know each other by our posts on this forum, I don&#39;t presume to know you as a person, nor your religous affiliations.

 

[Nienna]

I am not christian, I am not catholic, I am not jewish, I am not budhist, I am not anything religious. Religion has no ties whatsoever to my ideas on abortion.

Not once did I say that the girl could or could not legally make decisions for herself. And nor did I say she shouldn&#39;t be allowed to. I did however address that whether you like it or not 13 year olds do consent to sex. Do I feel that emotionally, physically, psychologically they are ready for it? No. But it still happens that a 13 year old girl THINKS she ready for sex and does consent to it. YES rape and incest do happen, but that is not always the case. I do agree that sex at 13 is just to soon, but I am not one to make that choice for them. Do I feel that there should more education to inform young people about pregnancy and std&#39;s HELL YES. Education is a huge part in the problems with teen pregnancy in this day and age, or rather the lack there of.

I never once said people should not be allowed to make thier decsions based on thier own concience. What I was trying to say, is that I don&#39;t agree with abortion used as birth control. I understand if your not ready for a child, but if you are going to have sex I feel that you should be able to accept the resposibility for your actions. I am not saying "punishment" as some of you so delicately put it. I am saying, that to ME abortion used just because you don&#39;t want to raise a child is plain laziness. You should have thought about that fact before you had sex. And yes that includes failed birth control, be prepared to accept responsibilty. Now, if you were raped, or a victim of incest, or your health is in danger because of the pregnancy than yes, I understand the want/need to have an abortion. Why? because the woman who is the victim did not consent to the acts wich caused the pregnancy, and/or has no control over the fact that her own life is in danger.

As for you views on prenatal care.....Correct me if I am wrong, But our countries are very different in the aspect of health care, where yours in privatized, ours is not, and thus it makes a HUGE difference in the amount and availablity of who gets what health care.. I am assumeing that in your country yes it is more difficult for young teens to get the health care they need. Here in Canada we have a very different health care system wich enables all citzens no matter what income to get good health care. ( this is not a jab at your health care system it is merely a point of reference to the differences in the societies in wich we come from). Crack babies are a sad sad thing to see, Noone wishes that upon anyone. ( nd again you threw in a God reference?) I do realize that some people out there are selfish or uneducated and will not stop bad habits like smoking, drinking, drug abuse while pregnant. Again, it comes back to education about preventing unwanted pregnancies, health care and being able to take responsibility for your actions, wich clearly these people do not.

As for women not wanting to go through a pregnancy and give it away, Yes it happens, and yes it is a very difficult thing to do, I never said it would be easy. It takes a lot of courage to do that. My mother thought about giving me up for adoption before I was born. She didn&#39;t, she kept me , But if she had I would still be grateful that she did at least care enough about me to give me a life and see I was taken care of rather than dismembering me in her womb. I was not a product of rape or incest, I was the result of a long term relationship that my mom had with my father and she left him two weeks before I was born. Why? because she didn&#39;t think he&#39;d be a good father. He didn&#39;t beat her, or neglect or belittle her or anything, she just htought he wasn&#39;t ready.She raised me alone till I was 2 and half when she married my stepfather.

Please tell me where I said "everyone should abide by the morals of Jenn" ( my real name btw) I never once said that.

Never once did I say people shouldn&#39;t respond to my posts. What I did say is that there is no need to bring in "labels" ( fundie ). And you adviseing people to "stay the fuck out of other peoples business" when you were right in here alongside everyone else, just seemed hypocritical.

As for the pictures. Some people think that until a fetus is born its not a "real person". I just wanted people to see that even though you can&#39;t see it inside the mothers uterus, It is a formed human, with heartbeat, central nervous sytem, the works. Just because you can&#39;t see it doesn&#39;t make it anyless alive. It is alive and it is a human being. It does exist.

Madame Z I know that you and I don&#39;t know each other outside of these forums. And you have drawn certain conclusions about me from my views. But anytime you&#39;d like to talk me out side of this, feel free to look me up on msn or drop me an email.

 

[13788]

carolinacurious:

Stats on teen pregnancy
Over eight hundred thousand teens become pregnant each year.
10% of women aged 15-19 become pregnant each year.
19% of women who are sexually active between the ages of 15 and 19 become pregnant each year.
34% of women get pregnant at least once before the age of 20.
The United States teen pregnancy rate has delcined 28% between 1990 and 2000.
78% of teen pregnancies are unplanned.
60% of teen pregnancies are in 18 and 19 year olds.
Teen pregnancies are much higher in the United States than any other developed country - double that of Canada and at least four times France and Germany



http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures.html
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures_2.html

Nienna, I haven&#39;t had time to research the other stats that are in the posts referred to above but I was surprised to discover that the above stats, regardless of where you actually got them are reasonbly close to the stats released by the CDC and tthe NIH and Planned Parenthood. There are still interesting things in those stats (the explosion of unplanned preganancies during Republican administrations, the decline while the democrats are in the white house. 22% of teen preganancies are PLANNED and 60% of teen pregnancies are in 18-19 year olds, so some of the things may not be quite as shocking as they first appear.)


As for the "fundie" thing, you post pictures like the ones above, PARTICULARLY without a warning stating that this is NOT where you got your information but is a new direction you are taking in your argument, people around here are going to scream "Fundie"; I don&#39;t know what it&#39;s like up in Canada but around here I&#39;m getting sick of seeing pictures like that on my way to work and there is only so much satisfaction that can be derived from hitting the nutjobs with the posters with lit cirgarrette butts. Really, am I suppossed to be that shocked that a developing human has features that actually might appear human? News flash&#33; a human embryo doesn&#39;t look like a chicken&#33;

I am NOT pro-abortion&#33; No one here is. Abortion should be safe, legal and rare. Maybe because of the progressiveness of Canada it is hard for you to understand what is going on in the US. Here, with people fighting so hard to keep abortions unsafe, make them illegal, limit sex eduation. access to condoms, the pill, and RU-486, abortion will remain anything but rare.