Have we lost the Iraq War?

[jay_too]

Is the Iraq War over? Except for the pullout of American and British troops?

Apparently, 45% to 65% of the Iraqis support the insurgency. I am beginning to doubt if the US/UK can prevail. While I know the administration prides itself on not listening to the polls or feelings of the American people, I think that it is time to begin imagining an Iraq without the coalition of one.

If one believes the past is any indication of the future, minorities win revolutions. John Adams estimated that during the American Revolution the country was evenly divided in their support. One-third favored the patriots; one-third, remaining a colony; and one third did not care. The French Revolution was won by the mobs of Paris. In Russia, the Bolsheviks and later the Communists seized power with minimal public support. Decades later the fact, there were still peasants in France and Russia who were loyal to the King and to the Czar. Then there was Vietnam where a majority wanted the foreigners out!

If this article is true, we should stop the loss of coalition forces:

http://telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jse...xportaltop.html

While this is gruesome, it is newsworthy. Failure of the military to report actions such as these is censorship. Perhaps, the Pentagon fears the American people. Have we become the enemy?

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle....&archived=False

I have no answers, and I supported the concept that America should help rebuild the Iraqi infrastructure we had destroyed in “shock and awe” campaign and in the continuing war. I am beginning to think I was wrong.

jay

 

[Sabln7]

Originally posted by jay_too@Oct 23 2005, 04:59 PM
Is the Iraq War over? Except for the pullout of American and British troops?

Apparently, 45% to 65% of the Iraqis support the insurgency. I am beginning to doubt if the US/UK can prevail. While I know the administration prides itself on not listening to the polls or feelings of the American people, I think that it is time to begin imagining an Iraq without the coalition of one.

If one believes the past is any indication of the future, minorities win revolutions. John Adams estimated that during the American Revolution the country was evenly divided in their support. One-third favored the patriots; one-third, remaining a colony; and one third did not care. The French Revolution was won by the mobs of Paris. In Russia, the Bolsheviks and later the Communists seized power with minimal public support. Decades later the fact, there were still peasants in France and Russia who were loyal to the King and to the Czar. Then there was Vietnam where a majority wanted the foreigners out!

If this article is true, we should stop the loss of coalition forces:

http://telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jse...xportaltop.html

While this is gruesome, it is newsworthy. Failure of the military to report actions such as these is censorship. Perhaps, the Pentagon fears the American people. Have we become the enemy?

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle....&archived=False

I have no answers, and I supported the concept that America should help rebuild the Iraqi infrastructure we had destroyed in “shock and awe” campaign and in the continuing war. I am beginning to think I was wrong.

jay

[post=354544]Quoted post[/post]​

I wish our president would reflect as you have. Perhaps he would not come up with the same conclusions, but I would love to see him and/or his handlers take a close, objective look at what this war was to have been oppossed to what it has become.

 

[D_Barbi_Queue]

But Iraq's President Jalal Talabani pleaded last night for British troops to stay. "There would be chaos and perhaps civil war," he said. "We are now fighting a world war launched by terrorists against civilisation, against democracy, against progress, against all the values of humanity.

"If British troops withdrew, the terrorists would say, 'Look, we have imposed our will on the most accomplished armed forces in the world and terror is the way to oblige the Europeans to surrender to us'."

And that is why Bush won't withdraw troops. The scary question is, "When will it become evident to the terrorists that we are pulling out b/c we're done, not b/c of them?"

 

[Matthew]

Thanks for posting that article, I was actually going to do it today. The proponents of "stay until we win" are making a big mistake, and I think the article shows some reasons why. I don't believe that Bush got us into this war to "fight terrorism," and I don't think that's why we're still there. The terrorists may celebrate when we leave (or they may not - the US occupation is a great recruiting tool for them), but clearly so will the majority of Iraqi citizens. That in itself should give pause to anyone who believes that we are doing this "for democracy." But I doubt it will, especially not to the decision-makers -- which in itself will reinforce in my mind that it's not about democracy at all.

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by jay_too@Oct 23 2005, 04:59 PM
If one believes the past is any indication of the future, minorities win revolutions.

kind of a redundant observation; they wouldn't have been revolutions otherwise.

Perhaps, the Pentagon fears the American people. Have we become the enemy?

you always have been.

 

[jonb]

Is anyone here surprised? I suppose whoever still supports Bush is, but then again, whoever still supports Bush most likely doesn't read the news. God, our president's such a chimp his supporters are of the 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' mentality.

 

[D_Humper E Bogart]

JonB, at least you have the advantage that they'd never think to find you if you hid in the desert (about 2 miles within one of their missiles bases).

 

[SpeedoGuy]

What could we have expected as the outcome of a war waged on the basis of so many half truths, distortions and outright lies?

SG

 

[GoneA]

amen.

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by SpeedoGuy@Oct 26 2005, 12:31 AM
What could we have expected as the outcome of a war waged on the basis of so many half truths, distortions and outright lies?

[post=355285]Quoted post[/post]​

free oil?

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

The war in Iraq will be the first* in a line of 'conflicts' that 'the western' world will wage on any country with a reserve of oil. Of course they don't want you to know that...so they just do it to nations with suspect leaders and goverments. When the oil has run out ( the oil WILL run out around 2020 ) the ''oil empire'' will be over. Many predict in the same way the roman empire ended, this will be a similar thing. Not sure about that. We've just got to get ahead of time and sort out the race for power (electric / oil etc...) before it comes.

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

Originally posted by HappyHammer1977@Oct 26 2005, 02:20 PM
The war in Iraq will be the first* in a line of 'conflicts' that 'the western' world will wage on any country with a reserve of oil. Of course they don't want you to know that...so they just do it to nations with suspect leaders and goverments. When the oil has run out ( the oil WILL run out around 2020 ) the ''oil empire'' will be over. Many predict in the same way the roman empire ended, this will be a similar thing. Not sure about that. We've just got to get ahead of time and sort out the race for power (electric / oil etc...) before it comes.

[post=355440]Quoted post[/post]​

* Technically, the Iraq conflicts are way down in an already long line of oil conflicts. The first proper one was WW1. Oh yes. It had nothing to do with the assassination of AD Franz Ferdinand. It was about oil. The same with WW2. That was a continuation of WW1. And so on with many of the wars of the 20th century. Just look it up.... A decent frame of reference is Robert Newman, check out his offical website, he's got loads of references to this subject.

 

[Dr. Dilznick]

I support George W. Bush. It's us against these towel-headed, oil hoarding child molesters.

Destroy the Middle East.

 

[MASSIVEPKGO_CHUCK]

Originally posted by TexAssgirl@Oct 23 2005, 08:26 PM

But Iraq's President Jalal Talabani pleaded last night for British troops to stay. "There would be chaos and perhaps civil war," he said. "We are now fighting a world war launched by terrorists against civilisation, against democracy, against progress, against all the values of humanity.

"If British troops withdrew, the terrorists would say, 'Look, we have imposed our will on the most accomplished armed forces in the world and terror is the way to oblige the Europeans to surrender to us'."

And that is why Bush won't withdraw troops. The scary question is, "When will it become evident to the terrorists that we are pulling out b/c we're done, not b/c of them?"

[post=354593]Quoted post[/post]​

Dig it, there, TAG, nail right on the head.

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

Originally posted by MASSIVEPKGO_CHUCK+Oct 26 2005, 09:49 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MASSIVEPKGO_CHUCK &#064; Oct 26 2005, 09:49 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-TexAssgirl@Oct 23 2005, 08:26 PM

But Iraq&#39;s President Jalal Talabani pleaded last night for British troops to stay. "There would be chaos and perhaps civil war," he said. "We are now fighting a world war launched by terrorists against civilisation, against democracy, against progress, against all the values of humanity.

"If British troops withdrew, the terrorists would say, &#39;Look, we have imposed our will on the most accomplished armed forces in the world and terror is the way to oblige the Europeans to surrender to us&#39;."

And that is why Bush won&#39;t withdraw troops. The scary question is, "When will it become evident to the terrorists that we are pulling out b/c we&#39;re done, not b/c of them?"

[post=354593]Quoted post[/post]​

Dig it, there, TAG, nail right on the head.

[post=355549]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]


Problem there is, after saying "we&#39;re here to create a &#39;democracy&#39; in &#39;eye-rack&#39;", you&#39;ve gotta stay there for the long haul. Not just put up voting booths and pretend all is solved.
Of course it has nothing to do with democracy. Well, an American approved democracy, that will allow America to do whatever it wants.
Doesn&#39;t that sound like the beginning of an empire, if GWB goes on to invade, sorry, &#39;free&#39; states such as Syria, eye-ran, and the like??

 

[D_Humper E Bogart]

The average non-American and non-western has known that for decades.

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

Originally posted by ORCABOMBER@Oct 27 2005, 04:19 PM
The average non-American and non-western has known that for decades.

[post=355925]Quoted post[/post]​

Exactly. And many Americans are shocked that the rest of the world doesn&#39;t love them&#33;