Have YOU forgotten?

[jonb]

And absolutely NO apologies to Daryl Worley; if you try
to capitalize on people's emotions, prepare to be filked.

I hear people say why we're fighting this war
Imagined weapons, no one knew what for
What about Al Qaeda, why hasn't Osama been found?
We had him surrounded and then we backed down
They fully realize the mess we're getting in
How many lives will it cost in the end?

Have you forgotten how it felt that day?
Even though Osama was trained by the CIA
Have you forgotten when those towers fell?
And Bush told us to go shopping to make everything well
And George says he isn't worried about Bin Laden
Have you forgotten?

They took the footage off our TV
Said it was too disturbing for you and me
It'll lower morale, that's what the experts say
If it was up to you and me, I'd show it every day
Some say this country's just looking for a fight
And the PNAC memo says that's always been right

Have you forgotten about dumping babies on the ground?
We were lied into Iraq even the first time around
Have you forgotten about the 15,000 Iraqis who have died?
The world goes blind with an eye for an eye
And George says he isn't worried about Bin Laden
Have you forgotten?

I've gotten mail from the soldiers
Who've gone away to war
And by now they realize
It was just for that campaign finance whore

Have you forgotten all the people killed?
A thousand Americans protecting some oil field
Have you forgotten about our Pentagon?
Ike warned us all about this in 1961
Don't tell me not to worry about Bin Laden
Have you forgotten?

 

[madame_zora]

Sorry, jonb, that doesn't fit in well with the current admin's agenda. We're not supposed to be paying attention to the reality of our situation, just the politically produced matrix- it's warmer and cozier there anyway.

 

[jonb]

Originally posted by madame_zora@Nov 5 2004, 01:44 PM
Sorry, jonb, that doesn't fit in well with the current admin's agenda. We're not supposed to be paying attention to the reality of our situation, just the politically produced matrix- it's warmer and cozier there anyway.

[post=262559]Quoted post[/post]​

And Pakistan sold weapons to Iran, Libya, and North Korea, anyway. The problem is, whether it's proliferation, child soldiering, land mines, or human rights, the U.S. and some banana republics typically vote "No" on UN resolutions while everyone else votes "Yes".

I just hope all of you who voted for Bush remember that you're doing something godly: Sending your children to die for your sins.

 

[madame_zora]

Unfortunately, poor old God doesn't even get a vote. Here are all these people blantantly blending God with war and death- where the hell do they get off doing something so sick and convoluded??? I feel very sorry for God, he's not out in front waving the flag on this one.

 

[deleted62]

As a deeply religious sergeant in the U.S. Army, I have conflicting views on this standpoint. In short, I ask you if the ends justify the means. The ends and means, though, might be different than you think.

I've had just about every Orthodox priest (my denomination) give me very persuasive arguments making the point that the commandment should read "Thou shalt not murder" instead of "Thou shalt not kill" -- murder being unjustified killing. What constitutes a justification to kill is mostly beyond me, but I do tell you one thing: anyone actively trying to kill me or any innocent person will face everything I have in my arsenal to kill him/her first (I have been in a party that was targeted by a female suicide bomber), and anyone unwittingly doing something that would get me killed would have his/her actions stopped immediately by any means other than death. I am not a fan of capital punishment -- it won't bring back anyone who's been murdered; it most likely won't bring closure to the victim's family and friends; and the vast majority of times, the murderer has an innocent family that suffers.

There is no question Saddam tortured and murdered thousands of people who didn't deserve it. (The only people who deserve torture in my book are those who tortured, but to do that, someone would have to torture them, and the spiral would continue.) It would have been impossible to successfully overthrow Saddam merely by supporting an indigenous revolt; oil or no oil, WMDs or no WMDs, we needed to go in there to help the millions of suffering Iraqis. We're still there because of innumerable monumental failures in the strategic planning done by warhawks who didn't know the first thing about fighting a war; had the generals acquired everything they wanted, things would have been a lot different. However, the main strategists planned and expected the best, breaking the first rule of warfare. I don't want to speculate on how they thought Iraq would be running on its own in a matter of months because of Saddam's existing infrastructure when they were arresting everyone who had anything to do with that infrastructure solely because they took the Ba'ath Party oath; the overwhelming majority of Ba'ath Party members were such not because they believed in the principles, but so that they could earn a living.

As a few of my fellow LPSGers know, I was over there for over a year, many times in the thick of things. I can understand the basic enmity over our being there; plain and simple, we were foreign soldiers -- warriors -- on historically Muslim land. A lot of Iraqis were able to see us as peacekeepers and nation-builders whose country thought it prudent to let us defend ourselves; some did not. Now, though, it is more dangerous than ever for our boys and girls to be there, mainly because of the spiral of the initial strategic blunders. However, if we pull out now, a colossal number of innocent people will be tortured, oppressed, and killed by fanatic Muslim fundamentalists, and each one of those suffering has a family who will also suffer. Just because they aren't Americans doesn't mean they aren't lesser people.

In short (too late), support our troops; support those who do good; criticize the planning of the war all you want, but now is the time for everyone -- not just Americans, but everyone -- to rally behind those fighting to keep people alive, safe, and free, and see to it that our boys and girls over there can leave without making all of Mesopotamia one 25,000,000-strong gravesite.

As for all the other places where mass oppression, torture, and murder occur -- well, the forces of good can only be stretched so far, and for so long. If only those who talk about "country X has a murderous despot for a leader" or "country Y is developing a weapon that could kill us all" would actually do something about it (I'm looking in your direction, U.N.), that would seriously augment our forces of good.

The U.S. is nowhere near perfect, but I'd rather live here than any other country I've lived in so far.

I don't know what point I made, but I feel as though I've gotten something off my chest. Thank you.

-SGT Z

My two cents are not prone to inflation.

 

[jonb]

There is no question Saddam tortured and murdered thousands of people who didn't deserve it.

And for you retro fans, you're in luck: Rummy's reopened the torture chambers. Of course, Bush can't even pronounce Abu Ghraib, so we can't really blame him.

It would have been impossible to successfully overthrow Saddam merely by supporting an indigenous revolt; oil or no oil, WMDs or no WMDs, we needed to go in there to help the millions of suffering Iraqis.

And they now want the U.S. OUT! They hated Saddam, but guess what? The U.S. backed Saddam.

 

[KinkGuy]

The latest estimates are that we are approaching 100,000 Iraqi deaths since we "liberated them" from the evil dictator who managed to provide food, water and power. I am NOT saying he wasn't an evil horrible bastard, he was. Hell, we put him in power and gave him the money to run the damn place. And lets just face facts, for the overwhelming majority of the population, they were better off before we got there.

 

[madame_zora]

Gusshiggins, I like you a great deal, but you pointed out something I had read somewhere else- that someone had suggested that the commandment SHOULD read "Thou shalt not MURDER" instead of "KILL". I would like to flatly state that anyone who presumes to improve on the only words God supposedly ever said to us is evil, egomaniacal, insane, stupid, vile, oh I could go on all day. They think their opinion supercede's God's own? What kind of a fucking lousy ass Christian could say such a horrible thing? No, they don't get to re-write the ten commandments to make themselves feel better about breaking them!! I'm really pissed about this.

Now, I do wrong things all the time, but at least I have the spunk to admit I'm doing wrong! I don't try to lie to others or change the rules so I can look better- I just do the wrong thing and go on with life. The very inference that the ten commandments (how old are they?) should be up to "some dude" to rewrite is wholly offensive, but makes clear to me what is wrong in the church right now, not just the state!

THOU SHALT NOT KILL is clear in intention, impossible to dilute or overlook. If a "christian" can feel free to ignore it, that's not a "christian" who's following the will of God, but a perverter of His words.

Someone, quick, please bring up the BJ again- it's all you've got.

 

[jonb]

Well, in Hebrew, the word translates more as murder. But in either case, I would consider the number of dead Iraqis nothing short of murder.