Have you noticed that high church christians have a thing for corporal punishment?

MattBrick

Expert Member
Joined
May 30, 2006
Posts
917
Media
15
Likes
145
Points
263
Location
NJ
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
Bigoted, only has one t Matt.

This thread is about a correlation between punishing the flesh and sexual gratification and an association with some christians who seem to enjoy wielding the whip.

I take it your knee jerk reaction is because you have taken it to be an attack on your denomination. Not so.


Thanks for the spelling lesson. I'm not English.

No, it's not your question that is bigotted, it was the thread that formed its response. Most people would view corporal punishment as something negative. Certainly they would think so of deriving pleasure from it. The thread links this to religion though, and a particular relgion.
This is bigotry.

You on the other hand, I begin to realize don't. You perhaps are one of the people you mention in your second paragraph, and I find that disturbing.

To set the record straight, no corporal punishment, or enjoying its application are not particular to any one religious group as Jason mentioned - or to religion in general for that matter. Consider that corporal punishment until very recently was permitted in public schools in some States here.
 

ManlyBanisters

Sexy Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Posts
12,253
Media
0
Likes
58
Points
183
I agree Jason. But why do they get off on torturing the flesh of others?

Could it possible be that some people* get off on the torture of the flesh (their own and or others) and, there being a large number of 'high church' Christians in the western world, there just happens to be a large overlap of the two groups that is, for most of the combined subset, coincidental?

Is it also possible that the hypocritical contrast of the religious teachings of certain faith groups v's sadism is more stark and therefore more likely to be noticed and commented upon?

* I hope we can agree this is unique to neither Christians, nor members of 'high church' denominations.
 

Drifterwood

Superior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Posts
18,677
Media
0
Likes
2,811
Points
333
Location
Greece
Well the point of the thread is to ask if it is coincidental, or whether there is a connection between a belief in sinfulness and beating it out.

Then, yes, there is the question as to why the beaters get off on doing it?

Whether this apparent phenomenon is shared in other faiths and cultures, I do not know. They are not the subject of my question, and if they do have similar practices, it does not "excuse" what may be seen to be happening here, it may help to explain it, but it doesn't justify it.
 

ManlyBanisters

Sexy Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Posts
12,253
Media
0
Likes
58
Points
183
OK - but that is not what you said: "Have you noticed that high church christians have a thing for corporal punishment?."

This question strongly implies, whether or not it was your intention, 'compared to other groups'. So of course comparing and contrasting other groups is going to be part of the discussion.

Nothing I said, if you were aiming that at me - maybe it was more generally at me, Jason and Matt - suggests anything about justification.

You seem to be drawing a correlation between 'high church' Christians and a predeliction for / enjoyment of corporal punishment and I am saying that I don't think there is any conclusive evidence for the correlation.
 

Drifterwood

Superior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Posts
18,677
Media
0
Likes
2,811
Points
333
Location
Greece
OK - but that is not what you said: "Have you noticed that high church christians have a thing for corporal punishment?."

This question strongly implies, whether or not it was your intention, 'compared to other groups'.

Absolutely no implication meant. I think my quoted statement can stand in isolation. I take your point though, pretty much any observation or enquiry can be taken to be comparative.

Personal question I understand MB, but did they have corporal punishment at your schools?
 

ManlyBanisters

Sexy Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Posts
12,253
Media
0
Likes
58
Points
183
Absolutely no implication meant. I think my quoted statement can stand in isolation. I take your point though, pretty much any observation or enquiry can be taken to be comparative.

Personal question I understand MB, but did they have corporal punishment at your schools?

No worries - I'll answer anyway. No - corporal punishment became illegal in Ireland while I was in primary school. My primary school never practised it anyway and my secondary school stuck to the law. My 2ndry was government run ('Community School' in Ireland - basically a 'Comprehensive') and officially non-denominational though we had both priests and nuns as teachers. The only corporal punishment in schools I was aware of from friends and neighbours was in the notorious Christian Brothers' schools - they did seem to flout the law - and I never personally encountered anyone who claimed sexual overtones to the abuse. I have heard of the teachers getting around the coporal punishment law by commissioning the older children to hand out punishments to the younger children (also non-sexual) - I only ever heard of that in relation to lay teachers. That isn't to say they weren't Catholics though, just that they weren't ordained priests / confirmed nuns.
 

Ethyl

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Posts
5,194
Media
19
Likes
1,707
Points
333
Location
Philadelphia (Pennsylvania, United States)
Sexuality
99% Straight, 1% Gay
Gender
Female
"Spare the rod, spoil the child" is touted as the reason for corporal punishment but it's not even a verse in the bible, oddly. Samuel Butler wrote a poem named "Hudibras" with that line:


*What med’cine else can cure the fits
Of lovers when they lose their wits?
Love is a boy by poets stil’d;
Then spare the rod and spoil the child.
A Persian emp’ror whipp’d his grannam 845
The sea, his mother VENUS came on;
And hence some rev’rend men approve
Of rosemary in making love.
As skilful coopers hoop their tubs
With Lydian and with Phrygian dubs, 850
Why may not whipping have as good
A grace, perform’d in time and mood,
With comely movement, and by art,
Raise passion in a lady’s heart?
It is an easier way to make 855
Love by, than that which many take."


This poem is not about corporal punishment in regard to children but between consenting adults in the bedroom. :eek:

Proverbs 23:13-14 - "Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." That's the verse used to justify beating children.

Funny how it never occurs to people that natural consequences are the best punishment a child can face. Could it be that's what the verse is all about? Nah.
 

Drifterwood

Superior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Posts
18,677
Media
0
Likes
2,811
Points
333
Location
Greece
I can understand consenting adults playing with pain, control, power, endorphines etc etc.

I can understand a personal need for punishment to feel absolution, even physical punishment.

Maybe christianity has a leaning towards BDSM, crucifixion, suffering for sins, the flesh being weak.
 

B_Italian1

Experimental Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Posts
1,661
Media
0
Likes
13
Points
183
Location
United Steaks
Sexuality
99% Straight, 1% Gay
Gender
Male
But Jesus was a human. That's quite the conundrum/laughably bad justification you've got there.

God in human form.

If you're a Christian then you follow the example of Jesus and I don't believe Jesus would have killed anyone.

He wouldn't have, but we are not him. We can try to follow his teachings, but we fail miserably as we are mere mortals.

He certainly had the chance to escape death, and if you believe he was the son of God then with but a whim of his will he could have rendered his murderers into oblivion.

That statement goes far deeper than any of our minds can comprehend.

Following the teachings of Jesus is far more difficult than most Christians imagine.

Of course it is, as is following Buddhism.

If you truly believe in the death penalty then you must assume the role of executioner as surely as the executioner of record because it is in your name that death is meted out by the state.

Okay. I'll pull the switch. :rolleyes: Agreeing with capital punishment in some circumstances does in no way make every person accountable for it. When someone gets executed in Texas, it is not a reflection of every Texan.


This topic has been discussed ad nauseam:

http://www.lpsg.org/69624-tot-killed-for-bad-manners.html
 

Axcess

Experimental Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Posts
1,611
Media
0
Likes
7
Points
123
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
God in human form.





How we know for sure who was Jesus ? Very few is know about the historical Jesus. According to Muslims Jesus is the Messiah , a prophet of Allah but not god or a deity . According to most Christians ( not all christians believe in the trinity ) Jesus is god. In a objective way: How we can know for sure who is right about this matter?
 

ManlyBanisters

Sexy Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Posts
12,253
Media
0
Likes
58
Points
183
God in human form.





How we know for sure who was Jesus ? Very few is know about the historical Jesus. According to Muslims Jesus is the Messiah , a prophet of Allah but not god or a deity . According to most Christians ( not all christians believe in the trinity ) Jesus is god. In a objective way: How we can know for sure who is right about this matter?

Please let's not go OT in that direction. We've done that topic to death in a thread quite recently - I think the discussion for here just warrants accepting that that is Italian978's personal belief and rolling with it.
 

Axcess

Experimental Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Posts
1,611
Media
0
Likes
7
Points
123
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Please let's not go OT in that direction. We've done that topic to death in a thread quite recently - I think the discussion for here just warrants accepting that that is Italian978's personal belief and rolling with it.
Okay I ask Italian in private then . My intention isn't to make the thread to go to that direction. I'm aware that this is his personal belief.
 

Not_Punny

Superior Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2007
Posts
5,464
Media
109
Likes
3,056
Points
258
Location
California
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Female
The goal of most religions/schools is control for the "good" of the recipient.

There are many forms of control, such as shaming, duress, physical punishment, praise/withholding praise, owning of secrets, etc.

Unfortunately, there is a segment of any population that is sexually attracted to corporal punishment, so it naturally follows that they wind up in positions where it is permitted.

My brothers were day-boys at a boarding school in England where corporal punishment was permitted, complete with public, bare-bottom canings. I did not personally witness them, but my older brother, who was about the sweetest, gentlest person you could imagine, experienced great anguish at having to witness these events. He also lived in terror of being late and his inadequacy in Latin. My younger brother was possibly too young to comprehend suffering, but in any case he had a slightly more barbaric nature because he enjoyed picking fights and later, when we lived in North Africa, he developed a rather nasty habit of putting scorpions and praying mantises in glass jars and watching them fight. Fortunately, he grew out of this phase without feeling compelled to follow a calling as a priest or serial murderer. However, I really do believe that these events marked him because, later in life, when he grew up to become an artist, his most frequent subject was suffering, and he frequently used blood as paint. (I don't know how these events affected my older brother long term, because he committed suicide when he was twenty-one.)

In any case, I truly believe that in any religion/movement/school system that uses them, flesh oriented punishments were originally perpetrated by people looking for an excuse to practice torture -- and I believe that severe, flesh oriented punishments indelibly mark the souls of those to witness/experience such events... and not in a good way.
 

Axcess

Experimental Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Posts
1,611
Media
0
Likes
7
Points
123
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Hotmilf you lived in North Africa , that's cool.
I would like to go to Africa and Australia.
Sorry about your brother.
 

jack65

Experimental Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2007
Posts
93
Media
0
Likes
2
Points
153
Location
Brisbane Aust
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Hello

several things come to mind while reading these posts,
The old testament laws were made for people so that they could not extract more revenge/punishment then they should - hence you can only have 1 eye for 1 eye, though god did ask them to forgive the person but if they could not then they had to go to the law, even if they could forgive there were some things that had to be dealt with.

Jesus said that not having the need or desire for a partner was a "gift" from god and only those ones could have a life of celibacy, yet some churches make priests do this which i believe has a lot to do with why some go of the deep end.

Every man has free will even Christians, what we do with it will show to all where we stand.

lastly when i was a kid many years ago, we moved every 3 or 4 months ( long story) so i went to 14 different schools buy the time i was in grade 7, every one was a state school and every one give the boys the "cuts" and the girls the meter ruler. so no i have not notice the high church doing anything, but i tell you what those government teachers can hit hard.

Thank you.
 

Axcess

Experimental Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Posts
1,611
Media
0
Likes
7
Points
123
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Hello

several things come to mind while reading these posts,
The old testament laws were made for people so that they could not extract more revenge/punishment then they should - hence you can only have 1 eye for 1 eye, though god did ask them to forgive the person but if they could not then they had to go to the law, even if they could forgive there were some things that had to be dealt with.

Jesus said that not having the need or desire for a partner was a "gift" from god and only those ones could have a life of celibacy, yet some churches make priests do this which i believe has a lot to do with why some go of the deep end.

Every man has free will even Christians, what we do with it will show to all where we stand.

lastly when i was a kid many years ago, we moved every 3 or 4 months ( long story) so i went to 14 different schools buy the time i was in grade 7, every one was a state school and every one give the boys the "cuts" and the girls the meter ruler. so no i have not notice the high church doing anything, but i tell you what those government teachers can hit hard.

Thank you.
Why christians would have less free will than others persons ? We have free will or we don't . In another words free will is real or is a illusion. I'm a determinist so I don't believe in free will.
 

jason_els

<img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi
Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Posts
10,228
Media
0
Likes
162
Points
193
Location
Warwick, NY, USA
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Because both roads lead to the same village.

BDSM and religious mortification induce the same kind of reactions within the brain. Gods demand sacrifice, denial of desires, complete submission, and adherence to rules. Dominants demand the exact same thing from there submissives. The key difference is that in the BDSM scenario the submissive is actually in control and receives immediate gratification for submitting. Religious submissives are not in control and believe they will receive delayed gratification from their god at a later time. A submissive misbehaves and the dominant punishes, the religious misbehaves and mortifies his flesh or mind in penance.

What I think happens is that the more a religious person feels they fail to meet the expectations of their god, the more angry with themselves they become as they become frustrated with the lack of reward for their piety. So rather than turn that anger inward with more mortification, they turn that anger outward, demanding that those who they control become as miserable and ungratified as they are. Dominants do receive gratification from administering pain. It's the hallmark of a sadist.

Christianity in many denominations is rather unique in that it demands how and why sanctified couples have sex. Judaism and Islam both have rules about cleanliness, but what a married couple do with each other is entirely up to them.... even if they wish to engage in BDSM. Many Christian denominations demand that couples engage in sex only for procreation, that only certain sexual positions and behaviors are permitted and BDSM practices are not any of them. For those who seek sexual release through mortification, the marital bed is no outlet.

The result is that confusion is created between what is sexual and what is spiritual because the brain itself is physically reacting to the process of receiving or giving pain the same way it would during sex. The euphoric pleasure of sex is duplicated in the mortification process. The writings of Theresa of Avila speak of the, "happy pain," found in the ecstasy of being filled with God. Those who wield the rod of God usually find their rod is just as stiff.

Catholic clergy, via celibacy, and other religious peoples who feel restricted in their sex lives, with no other legitimate outlet for their sexual desires, may find that the feelings of sex are duplicated for them in the administration and reception of pain because it is the only way for their brains to experience the feelings of sex without actually engaging in sex.

I agree Jason. But why do they get off on torturing the flesh of others?

Could it possible be that some people* get off on the torture of the flesh (their own and or others) and, there being a large number of 'high church' Christians in the western world, there just happens to be a large overlap of the two groups that is, for most of the combined subset, coincidental?

Is it also possible that the hypocritical contrast of the religious teachings of certain faith groups v's sadism is more stark and therefore more likely to be noticed and commented upon?

* I hope we can agree this is unique to neither Christians, nor members of 'high church' denominations.

Absolutely no implication meant. I think my quoted statement can stand in isolation. I take your point though, pretty much any observation or enquiry can be taken to be comparative.

Personal question I understand MB, but did they have corporal punishment at your schools?
 

jason_els

<img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi
Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Posts
10,228
Media
0
Likes
162
Points
193
Location
Warwick, NY, USA
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
God in human form.

He wouldn't have, but we are not him. We can try to follow his teachings, but we fail miserably as we are mere mortals.

Okay. I'll pull the switch. :rolleyes: Agreeing with capital punishment in some circumstances does in no way make every person accountable for it. When someone gets executed in Texas, it is not a reflection of every Texan.

Being in favor of capital punishment and excusing that favor because we know we cannot emulate Jesus perfectly is simply knowingly disregarding the teachings of Jesus because the desire for vengeance is greater than the desire to forgive.

I do not believe anyone who follows Jesus can be in favor of the death penalty.
 

B_Italian1

Experimental Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Posts
1,661
Media
0
Likes
13
Points
183
Location
United Steaks
Sexuality
99% Straight, 1% Gay
Gender
Male
Being in favor of capital punishment and excusing that favor because we know we cannot emulate Jesus perfectly is simply knowingly disregarding the teachings of Jesus because the desire for vengeance is greater than the desire to forgive.

I do not believe anyone who follows Jesus can be in favor of the death penalty.

I don't know whether you're a Christian or not (I get the impression you're a former Christian), and that's beside the point, but just because a person is a Christian does not mean they have to forgive everything. It's looks good on paper and in thought--and it probably is the right thing to do--but how many Christians do you think could forgive someone who killed their child, husband, wife, partner, etc? Some cannot even forgive for some lesser things. When it comes to murder, I would think even some of the well known evangelists would have a hard time with it. And the problem that I see happening here and when this topic came up before is that many people are anti death penalty when they are on the outside looking in.

http://www.lpsg.org/69624-tot-killed...d-manners.html

But some of them might be the very people who would want the death penalty for a person who killed one of their loved ones. Yes, it does seem kind of senseless as it's not going to bring that person back.

I'm not going to quote this entire website but it's worth a look:

Policies of religious groups towards the death penalty
 

b.c.

Worshipped Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Nov 7, 2005
Posts
20,540
Media
0
Likes
21,779
Points
468
Location
at home
Verification
View
Gender
Male
Being in favor of capital punishment and excusing that favor because we know we cannot emulate Jesus perfectly is simply knowingly disregarding the teachings of Jesus because the desire for vengeance is greater than the desire to forgive.
I do not believe anyone who follows Jesus can be in favor of the death penalty.

I'm inclined to agree.

When I say "God save us from the 'Christians'" it is not a condemnation of faith in general (I've defended faith here on past occasions because of the role it has historically played and continues to play in uplifting and giving hope to people facing adversities), nor is it a condemnation of Christianity in particular. Fact is, I'm Catholic (believed by some to be all sexual deviants and bound for hell). :tongue:

No, what I have a problem with are those so-called "Christians" (in particular the extreme conservative types) who always seem to have God and Christianity on their lips, yet embrace social policies and harbor points of view that seem to me to be not-so-Christ like. I'm not talking necessarily about capital (or even corporal) punishment, but social and political policies in general that are mean spirited, selfish, inconsiderate of the needs and concerns and rights of others.

I'm speaking of those who are so intolerant of whomever or whatever they perceive as contrary to their "teachings". I tire of people who justify bigotry, hatred, divisiveness, and intolerance by proclaiming it to be the will of God&#8230; people (of any religion) who use their faith for an excuse to perpetrate some act of inhumanity upon another.