Have you noticed that high church christians have a thing for corporal punishment?

JustAsking

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I don't know whether you're a Christian or not (I get the impression you're a former Christian), and that's beside the point, but just because a person is a Christian does not mean they have to forgive everything. It's looks good on paper and in thought--and it probably is the right thing to do--but how many Christians do you think could forgive someone who killed their child, husband, wife, partner, etc? Some cannot even forgive for some lesser things. When it comes to murder, I would think even some of the well known evangelists would have a hard time with it. And the problem that I see happening here and when this topic came up before is that many people are anti death penalty when they are on the outside looking in.

...
Italian,
This is a very good point. I think most people who have had loved ones murdered would respond pretty much as you say. They would be angry, irrational, and probably unwilling to forgive. That is just human nature.

However, the fact that it is human nature does not mean it is right. Almost everything Jesus advocated was pretty much countercultural and very much against human nature. The kind of life Jesus requests of us in terms of unquestioning self-sacrifice is a burden that is almost too much for any of us to bear. The fact that it is difficult does not change the essence of that message. Jesus' message was so countercultural and so much against human nature that they nailed him to a tree.

So the fact that any one of us would be bent on revenge if our child were murdered has nothing to do with how Jesus would want us to respond. As for the proper response, Jesus would have us put our energy into creating a world where children are not murdered, rather than exacting revenge on any individual murderer.
 

Ethyl

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I don't know whether you're a Christian or not (I get the impression you're a former Christian), and that's beside the point, but just because a person is a Christian does not mean they have to forgive everything. It's looks good on paper and in thought--and it probably is the right thing to do--but how many Christians do you think could forgive someone who killed their child, husband, wife, partner, etc? Some cannot even forgive for some lesser things. When it comes to murder, I would think even some of the well known evangelists would have a hard time with it. And the problem that I see happening here and when this topic came up before is that many people are anti death penalty when they are on the outside looking in.

If you're a Christian and embrace the teachings of the church you should know that statement in bold contradicts what is written in scripture:

Colossians 3:13
"Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you."

Matthew 18:21-22
"Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times."

Luke 6:37
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

Matthew 6:14-16
"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."


Aren't these verses central to Christianity or are they just a good idea when the mood strikes?
 

bigbull29

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Italian,
This is a very good point. I think most people who have had loved ones murdered would respond pretty much as you say. They would be angry, irrational, and probably unwilling to forgive. That is just human nature.

However, the fact that it is human nature does not mean it is right. Almost everything Jesus advocated was pretty much countercultural and very much against human nature. The kind of life Jesus requests of us in terms of unquestioning self-sacrifice is a burden that is almost too much for any of us to bear. The fact that it is difficult does not change the essence of that message. Jesus' message was so countercultural and so much against human nature that they nailed him to a tree.

So the fact that any one of us would be bent on revenge if our child were murdered has nothing to do with how Jesus would want us to respond. As for the proper response, Jesus would have us put our energy into creating a world where children are not murdered, rather than exacting revenge on any individual murderer.

I couldn't agree more with your posts on this thread, Thank you so much.:smile:
 

viking1

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If you're a Christian and embrace the teachings of the church you should know that statement in bold contradicts what is written in scripture:

Colossians 3:13
"Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you."

Matthew 18:21-22
"Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times."

Luke 6:37
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

Matthew 6:14-16
"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."


Aren't these verses central to Christianity or are they just a good idea when the mood strikes?

They should be! However, it's always about the mood, and the desired result at the time. Religion has always been used as a manipulative tool.
It always will be. Those who are greedy of their own agenda will always find a way to pervert anything...
 

Guy-jin

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Sometimes…… I don’t know about this site.
This thread is even a little less intelligent than
what usually makes it on here.

Now that we are all on the same page as to what the question that prompted this thread really means…..
You might have kept this piece of condescension and ignorance to yourself.

Consider that Christians believe that Jesus is God and Man. This, along with the concept of the Trinity, are defining Christian beliefs. That is to say that believing this is what distinguises Christians from non-Christians.

Please be a little tolerant. Please be a little informed.

Your calling this example a conundrum, and laughable is akin to an American, or a European calling an Indian’s religious vegetarianism “laughable” or foolish, because he hadn’t taken the time to understand their belief in the transmigration of the soul, the accumulation of karma, the concept of ahimsa, or how the practice is deeply ingrained in their culture, society, and cuisine for a variety of other reasons.

If you don’t agree with another’s belief, that doesn’t mean your belief is superior just because it is yours. Likewise, understand the logical propositions before formulating a rhetorical tautology. A conundrum after all is a test relating to lateral thinking – that is what is not obvious or computable by traditional logic. This is no conundrum at all though. Note that the author proposes that We are flawed humans, not that All humans are/were flawed.Logically contingent. So be a little open minded.
And as far as the study of religion, you might try calling something you still can’t wrap your mind around a paradox, instead of laughable, because the paradox, after all is where religion and tolerance both take their start.
Have fun.

You're the one being bigoted, ignorant and crass, sir.

You are not worth responding to to any greater extant.
 

Guy-jin

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I don't know whether you're a Christian or not (I get the impression you're a former Christian), and that's beside the point, but just because a person is a Christian does not mean they have to forgive everything. It's looks good on paper and in thought--and it probably is the right thing to do--but how many Christians do you think could forgive someone who killed their child, husband, wife, partner, etc? Some cannot even forgive for some lesser things. When it comes to murder, I would think even some of the well known evangelists would have a hard time with it. And the problem that I see happening here and when this topic came up before is that many people are anti death penalty when they are on the outside looking in.

There are very many examples of Christians forgiving those who murdered their loved ones, though. And in those cases, I have little doubt it is from Jesus that they garnered that expansive capacity for forgiveness.

You say humans aren't perfect, and if you believe in Jesus truly, you know he was a human and perfect. The response you might give is, "but He is also God." But wasn't His place as God in the form of man to show us how we should live to attain godliness? That ultimately, a complete capacity for forgiveness, compassion and love would end up making saints of us all? That's what I've always believed.

Jesus would forgive someone for wanting to take vengeance on his or her child's killer. But He would also be so proud if that person had been able to forgive the killer and show him or her the power of Christ's forgiveness.

I understand you feel that in the "real world", that isn't an option. You probably think forgiving a killer would eventually lead to having him set free to kill again. But is that that really a concern to a Christian? Is it so unrealistic to aspire to live a Christ-like life? If so, was Christ's life simply meant to exemplify that which humans are unable to attain, complete serenity and forgiveness? And if that's the case, what about other humans who have displayed such a capacity (the Dalai Lama comes to mind)?

I hope you won't get offended by this post. It's hard to find people of faith willing to discuss their beliefs openly. They seem to get offended on a whim and are unwilling to answer challenges to their faith, even if it's just an intellectual exercise and not intended to make them question their faith. So I hope you can see I'm being genuine and not overreact like that other individual to something that's harmless.
 

Notthe7

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I live in Texas.
Everyone is anti-abortion, pro-capital punishment, pro-war in Iraq and a member of the NRA.

It all makes MUCH sense.

pro life, GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fuckers.
 

viking1

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I live in Texas.
Everyone is anti-abortion, pro-capital punishment, pro-war in Iraq and a member of the NRA.

It all makes MUCH sense.

pro life, GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fuckers.

What would you expect for right wing, religious, conservative, fanatics?
 

whatireallywant

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I live in Texas.
Everyone is anti-abortion, pro-capital punishment, pro-war in Iraq and a member of the NRA.

It all makes MUCH sense.

pro life, GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fuckers.

I thought that was Indiana! :biggrin1: (live in Texas now...am from Indiana originally, and yeah, it's pretty much the same there, actually worse in many ways.)
 

bigbull29

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Those who are greedy of their own agenda will always find a way to pervert anything...

I agree with you wholeheartedly. But, no matter how dim our view of humanity (mine is so dim these days:frown1:), a little shines from a few dear souls who have lived throughout history. One of those was Mother Theresa. She didn't have an agenda. Her love for Jesus went beyond the Catholic Church and all of its agendas. What gives evidence to this? She never bashed anyone for refusing to embrace Christianity and her ways. "Love" was her way - her one and only way. If she helped a Hindu die, a Hindu funeral was given. She showed no more love to Christians and like-minded people than those who thought and lived most differently from her. She didn't care what you were and who you were. She loved the homeless HIV victims, the prostitutes, the hopeless dying souls on the street and all those shunned by "religious people." Why did she love them? Why did she care? Why didn't she judge? Why didn't she point fingers at them, telling them they were going to hell? Why? Because in her there was a heart like Jesus's, loving those most despised among men.

Although many people disagreed with her views on certain issues, I believe that she fundamentally understood what it was to have to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Truly, a few people throughout history transcended their humanity, and among them, Blessed Mother Theresa of Calcutta.


Mother Theresa would have never pulled the switch, by the way:wink:
 

HazelGod

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I live in Texas.
Everyone is anti-abortion, pro-capital punishment, pro-war in Iraq and a member of the NRA.

It all makes MUCH sense.

pro life, GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fuckers.

No, not everyone dollface...all the sane Texans live an hour up 35 from where you are. :wink:
 

The Dragon

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With all due respect these posts have nothing to do with the OPs question.
Don't get me wrong my lovelys, I'm all for a spritied debate but perhaps you might be better served starting a fresh thread so these "OTHER" matters can be discussed without getting off topic.
 

SpeedoGuy

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I)...and that's beside the point, but just because a person is a Christian does not mean they have to forgive everything. It's looks good on paper and in thought--and it probably is the right thing to do--but how many Christians do you think could forgive someone who killed their child, husband, wife, partner, etc?

Sorry Italian978. This isn't a personal attack on you but Christians can't have it both ways. Claiming to be a Christian while selectively ignoring the fundamental tenets of Christ's philosophy is lazy and dishonest. Its a cheap cop-out I've far too many so-called Christians invoke:

"Christ calls on Christians to forgive but I'm exempt because I'm not Christ."
 

viking1

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I agree with you Bigbull29. There are always a few really good people.
However, there are very few people any where who aren't self serving to at least some degree. Especially those in political power...
 

JustAsking

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... That ultimately, a complete capacity for forgiveness, compassion and love would end up making saints of us all? That's what I've always believed.

Yes, that is the point of spreading the Good News. In recognizing God's Grace, we equip ourselves to channel God's Grace.

Jesus would forgive someone for wanting to take vengeance on his or her child's killer. But He would also be so proud if that person had been able to forgive the killer and show him or her the power of Christ's forgiveness.

I understand you feel that in the "real world", that isn't an option. You probably think forgiving a killer would eventually lead to having him set free to kill again. But is that that really a concern to a Christian? Is it so unrealistic to aspire to live a Christ-like life? If so, was Christ's life simply meant to exemplify that which humans are unable to attain, complete serenity and forgiveness? And if that's the case, what about other humans who have displayed such a capacity (the Dalai Lama comes to mind)?....

I would like to add that Christian forgiveness should be unlimited and unconditional. However, that is not to be confused with passivity or non-judging. In fact, Jesus calls every Christian into vigorous judgement and action regarding misery and suffering in the world. So although I might forgive someone who commits a crime against me, I would just as vigorously seek to have the criminal removed from being a danger to others if he is a chronic criminal, and also seek to have him rehabilitated (as impractical and ineffective as that might be). I would also seek to change the conditions under which crime can flourish.

If a Christian talks about personal peace, what he means is a kind of peace that really has no peace, which is coming to terms with and trying to address the seemingly infinite misery and suffering in the world. One attains that peaceless peace when one realizes fully that God asks nothing of you in exchange for his infinite Grace and love. However, love itself is an even more demanding task master, and one that keeps one's personal peace from becoming passive serenity.

So when it comes to my own life here and in the hereafter, my trust in God's promise of Grace gives me serenity for myself, regardless of my own transgressions.

However, when I look at the world around me, I find no peace and serenity for the world full of misery and suffering. In fact, I am galvanized to judgement and action.
 

MrGoodDate

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So much you say is true. Gandhi said he would become a christian if he ever met one. But, some of us believe followers of Jesus are non violent. And good Hebrew Christian tradition views creation as good, not life denying.
Hebrew Christian teaching is the only life affirming, creation affirming faith there is. It is Jesus who taught us to turn the other cheek and to forgive.
I have no problem with the true faith....... but I do have problems with so many who get it turned around and turn to violence.
 

Guy-jin

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I would like to add that Christian forgiveness should be unlimited and unconditional. However, that is not to be confused with passivity or non-judging. In fact, Jesus calls every Christian into vigorous judgement and action regarding misery and suffering in the world. So although I might forgive someone who commits a crime against me, I would just as vigorously seek to have the criminal removed from being a danger to others if he is a chronic criminal, and also seek to have him rehabilitated (as impractical and ineffective as that might be). I would also seek to change the conditions under which crime can flourish.

Ah, leave it to you to answer the questions I haven't asked yet. But yes, the questions posed ultimately lead to the question of what a steadfast Christian who aspires to live by Christ's example does with a murderer? And of course, it further leads to the mechanism by which rehabilitation would be carried out and then to the original question of this very thread: Is corporal punishment a Christian solution? Capital punishment?

Would Jesus Christ leave those who would betray others to their fate, to eventually get what's coming to them? In the real world, they certainly don't always. Sometimes bad people will end up evading natural consequences of their misbehavior, and won't get their comeuppance without human intervention. Personally, I see this as the reality, and, like you, I see the solution as ultimately trying to rid ourselves of the influences that create that kind of behavior in the first place.


If a Christian talks about personal peace, what he means is a kind of peace that really has no peace, which is coming to terms with and trying to address the seemingly infinite misery and suffering in the world. One attains that peaceless peace when one realizes fully that God asks nothing of you in exchange for his infinite Grace and love. However, love itself is an even more demanding task master, and one that keeps one's personal peace from becoming passive serenity.

So when it comes to my own life here and in the hereafter, my trust in God's promise of Grace gives me serenity for myself, regardless of my own transgressions.

However, when I look at the world around me, I find no peace and serenity for the world full of misery and suffering. In fact, I am galvanized to judgement and action.
The world is and always has been full of misery and suffering. And yet, we are more than six billion strong, more successful as a race than we've ever been. In that sense, isn't obtaining personal peace the only real concern of an individual? In the greater sense, isn't suffering and misery something shared by all? We all experience periods of exceptional anguish and pain. Ironic or not, is that not one of the many things that should make us stronger as people, and more able to understand each other?

I realize that's an idealistic approach. In reality, there are very few people introspective enough to see those similarities and through them attempt to understand others and forgive them. But perhaps those of us who do lead that kind of life serve as an example for others, and in that way spread that kind of love to others.
 

JustAsking

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...In the greater sense, isn't suffering and misery something shared by all? We all experience periods of exceptional anguish and pain. Ironic or not, is that not one of the many things that should make us stronger as people, and more able to understand each other?

I realize that's an idealistic approach. In reality, there are very few people introspective enough to see those similarities and through them attempt to understand others and forgive them. But perhaps those of us who do lead that kind of life serve as an example for others, and in that way spread that kind of love to others.
I don't see it that way, guy. Did you know that the number one concern of women in the world by a large margin is just finding fresh water for their family. We here in the USA live like Gods compared to most of the world. I am afraid that Jesus would simply tell us that "It ain't 'the good life' until everyone is included."