He is Here Pope Benedict XV1

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Originally posted by jeepwranglerboi+Apr 20 2005, 04:03 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jeepwranglerboi &#064; Apr 20 2005, 04:03 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-DoubleMeatWhopper@Apr 19 2005, 09:16 PM
Just so there&#39;s no misunderstanding whether this is my opinion or the official stand of the Church, here follows a verbatim quote about homosexuals from the English translation of the new Catechism of the Catholic Church:

They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God&#39;s will in their lives

This is official Roman Catholic doctrine.

[post=302201]Quoted post[/post]​

DMW, baby, thank you so much for that information. You are enlightening as always. Your quote answers so many debates that go on here.
[/b][/quote]

I think the reason for my post wasn&#39;t particularly clear, so I will explain. Pope Benedict XVI may feel that homosexuality is &#39;an intrinsic evil&#39;, but that is his opinion. His statement was not an infallible declaration, it was not ratified by the Council of Bishops, it was simply his opinion. Regardless of his personal views, he must uphold the official view of the Catholic Church. He does not have the authority to change the rules as he sees fit. I posted the quote from The Catechism of the Catholic Church because it is the position that the Pope is duty-bound to defend. The catechism was written in 1992 in its original Latin version, Catholicae Ecclesiae Catechismus; it is not some mediaeval text preserved simply out of respect. It was compiled specifically to usher the Catholic Church into the twenty-first century. Benedict XVI may have his own opinions, and we may agree or disagree. He will not allow his opinions to affect his responsibility as Servus Servorum Dei, &#39;Servant of the Servants of God&#39;. The man has faithfully served the Church since the 1940&#39;s; there is no reason to suppose that he will now choose to do otherwise.

 

[jonb]

Would a medieval document even mention homosexuals?

 

[madame_zora]

DMW, I really appreciate all the information you share with us, about this and everything. I think many of us on the outside who don&#39;t fully understand the Catholic church and how it operates have the misconception of it working more like a government. Perhaps the Pope doesn&#39;t have as much power to change things as we would like to believe, but for the millions of non-Catholics who still look up to him, his personal opinions do carry a lot of weight, don&#39;t you think? For many, the Pope is considered the ultimate religous leader, and whether cannon law or not, what he believes has an influence on the world as a whole. Oh well, it&#39;s doubtful he&#39;ll last long since he&#39;s 78 already, but I hope at some point we (the world) will make a little more progress in treating each other with more decency. One would hope that would be more important in the churches collectively.

 

[13788]

hung_big:

Originally posted by NelsonMuntz84+Apr 20 2005, 12:58 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NelsonMuntz84 &#064; Apr 20 2005, 12:58 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-hung_big@Apr 20 2005, 02:58 AM
Woah, woah, woah.

Nelson buddy....calm down. This is yet another misunderstanding, but taken to another level.

First, I must say this: A threat is a threat. It does not matter if you intended to do it, or you didn&#39;t. Threats are taken seriously, because it is assumed preemptive strike/physical or mental harm. You criticize Nixxy for not talking with grace, but I find personal threats to be some of the most vulgar behavior, especially if someone does not think twice while posting it. On a side note, I&#39;m pretty sure Nixxy could kick your ass; I know him personally and also believe me, that picture is misleading (take it for what you will)

When Nixxy said "I don&#39;t give a shit" (which is what I assume started this quarrel), he meant he doesn&#39;t give a shit about a church not changing overnight or any of what you said. All of that doesn&#39;t matter IF the Pope is ardent in hating homosexuals. Just as the doctorine does not matter; a Pope basically calls the shots in the church and changes things, most of the time to his pleasing or the people&#39;s pleasing, which can be dangerous.

Also, adult manner? Err....perhaps you should practice what you preach? Because we all know how adult, "I&#39;ll beat the shit outta you" sounds .

Nixxy: The pope is not a Nazi . Oh, and yes, if you spread something around and your source is wrong you are just as responsible. If someone acuses another of being something they are not and you continue to spread said rumour, you are just as guilty as the original conspirator. You heard he is a Nazi, you&#39;ve heard he&#39;s not - that would logically mean you have chosen by which point you wish to stand, thus becoming your opinion. On that count you are guilty as charged.

Much love to the both of you....let&#39;s all just get along *hugs and kisses*

On topic: Best of Luck to the new pope.

Chris

[post=302316]Quoted post[/post]​

I didn&#39;t say beat the shit out off, I said leave in hospital for a week, the only person who said shit was him, oh and of course prick, going by how quick you go in a huff on here, I&#39;d pay money to see someone say to you &#39;I dont give a shit" to your face.
[/b][/quote]

See, this is the type of responce people get from YOU when anyone disagrees with you. Just like you said "Arse-licking toad" when someone bashed you. You expect Nixxy to be all happy and dandy when you are bashing him? Don&#39;t - you are being a hypocrite.

And on a sidenote, if someone did say "I don&#39;t give a shit" to MY face, I would use wit and intelligence rather than threats and vulgar bahavior.

You&#39;ve now started to pick individual fights with everyone...STOP&#33;

Dickbulge, thanks for using your brain and posting, it was nice to see someone other than the usual clique members running around like headless chickens, but I wont be getting rebuked for anything, I didn&#39;t say anything that wasn&#39;t true, if others can&#39;t handle that they can go have another bloody group hug and give me peace.

What, so we have to be at each-other&#39;s necks all the time? I&#39;d rather be in a group hug then being a juvenile bastard like yourself (see, now you have ME swearing, even when I was nothing but pleasant before). Why is it that because you an Nixxy are attacking each-other (more you attacking EVERYONE that disagrees with you) and we have to feel like mediators. Take whatever is stuck up your ass out and until then do us all a favor and stop taking out your damn rage on us.

And "Thanks for using your brain for posting" just proves my point further. Why? Because he is agreeing with you? Because YOU MUST be RIGHT? . Because, we all know how if someone disagrees with you they aren&#39;t using their head, right? Like me, I wasn&#39;t using my head because I was telling you off, but when someone tells Nixxy off, it&#39;s A.O.K? *Sigh*

On a sidenote: I do agree with dickbulge

 

[yaoifun]

Originally posted by NelsonMuntz84+Apr 20 2005, 01:32 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NelsonMuntz84 &#064; Apr 20 2005, 01:32 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-neuromancer@Apr 20 2005, 07:12 AM
You are a vile human being. 

All Surf said to set you off was that the new pope was homophobic.  DUH.  Its pretty obvious he is.  If that offends you, you need to take a look at your religious beliefs. 

You responded to him initially by being insulting and threatening physcial violence.  He responded as I would have. 

What an asshole.

[post=302405]Quoted post[/post]​

From a arse licking little toad like you, I will take that as a complement.

You know nothing about being a Catholic obviously and sound like the diddy you are, go read DMW&#39;s post.

Oh and its arsehole, at least get it right, which is something I&#39;d rather be, than a foot-pad like you.

Jeep I like you, your a good guy but if you dont think there a clique on here you are living in cloud cookoo land I&#39;m afraid.

Anyway, I&#39;ve said my goodbye&#39;s last night to those I&#39;ve spoken to on here. As I said to you, the best of luck for the future, I know a few of you are thinking of drifting away from here too, and whatever you do, just stay the people you always are. Take care&#33;&#33;

"Far an taine &#39;n abhainn, &#39;s ann as mo a fuaim"

Is minig a bha an fhirinn searbh ri h-innse.

Beannachd leibh&#33;&#33;&#33;

[post=302575]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

Your not helping your case any by being pissed off at the truth. I&#39;m gonna save my breath and not even start another rant. I have better things to do than deal with what no one will just drop, listen to reason, and get over it.

 

[naughty]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I dont know whether you have noticed but one of our revered moderators, Mindseye has requested that we put this topic on hiatus for a few days for obvious reasons. We can never hope to have a board that truly works without participating within the parameters set by our moderators I think Mindseye, Dee ,and Mark have been very generous in allowing this to continue to this point in the spirit of freedom of speech, but we do need to respect their wishes.Thank you.


Naughty

 

[yaoifun]

Originally posted by naughty@Apr 20 2005, 09:01 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen,

I dont know whether you have noticed but one of our revered moderators, Mindseye has requested that we put this topic on hiatus for a few days for obvious reasons. We can never hope to have a board that truly works without participating within the parameters set by our moderators I think Mindseye, Dee ,and Mark have been very generous in allowing this to continue to this point in the spirit of freedom of speech, but we do need to respect their wishes.Thank you.


Naughty

[post=302732]Quoted post[/post]​

I know I may have said my piece before, but I totally support that request. Do us a favor and lock this topic ASAP&#33;

 

[BobLeeSwagger]

I don&#39;t think anyone should be surprised that a conservative priest is chosen as pope because:

- when the eligible candidates are almost always at least 65, you&#39;re lucky if he&#39;s only 30 years behind the times.

- the pope is chosen from among the other cardinals (although he technically doesn&#39;t have to be), so it&#39;s not like he has a constituency per se.

- and even if he did have a constituency, it would the devout, go-to-Mass-every-Sunday Catholics, not the occasional kind, and definitely not non-Catholics. It&#39;s like criticizing NOW for not picking a man to head the organization.

- organized religions are, by definition, more traditional than society as a whole. That&#39;s why people like them. The only religions that aren&#39;t old-fashioned are the brand-new ones, and those aren&#39;t called "religions". They&#39;re called "cults".

****

Let&#39;s not make too much of this choice of pope. Much of John Paul II&#39;s conservative doctrine was ignored by many catholics, and they&#39;ll do the same under Benedict XVI. Clearly, the Vatican doesn&#39;t feel that it&#39;s reached a tipping point, when they have to reform or else. Maybe they&#39;re right. The faithful are free to lose faith or re-gain it at any time.

 

[mindseye]

Originally posted by naughty@Apr 20 2005, 09:01 PM
I dont know whether you have noticed but one of our revered moderators, Mindseye has requested that we put this topic on hiatus for a few days for obvious reasons.

[post=302732]Quoted post[/post]​

Just to clarify, though, I&#39;m not a moderator in this category (just The Help Desk). I don&#39;t want people to get the wrong impression that my suggestion was an order.

 

[naughty]

Originally posted by mindseye+Apr 21 2005, 02:31 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mindseye &#064; Apr 21 2005, 02:31 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-naughty@Apr 20 2005, 09:01 PM
I dont know whether you have noticed but one of our revered moderators, Mindseye has requested that we put this topic on hiatus for a few days for obvious reasons.

[post=302732]Quoted post[/post]​

Just to clarify, though, I&#39;m not a moderator in this category (just The Help Desk). I don&#39;t want people to get the wrong impression that my suggestion was an order.

[post=302745]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

Shhhhhh Mr.Heath I am trying to use any sneaky lowdown method to get the bad kiddies to behave themselves&#33; LOL&#33;

Naughty

 

[13788]

neuromancer:

Originally posted by naughty+Apr 21 2005, 12:11 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naughty &#064; Apr 21 2005, 12:11 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by mindseye@Apr 21 2005, 02:31 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-naughty

@Apr 20 2005, 09:01 PM
I dont know whether you have noticed but one of our revered moderators, Mindseye has requested that we put this topic on hiatus for a few days for obvious reasons.

[post=302732]Quoted post[/post]​

Just to clarify, though, I&#39;m not a moderator in this category (just The Help Desk). I don&#39;t want people to get the wrong impression that my suggestion was an order.

[post=302745]Quoted post[/post]​

Shhhhhh Mr.Heath I am trying to use any sneaky lowdown method to get the bad kiddies to behave themselves&#33; LOL&#33;

Naughty

[post=302790]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

Laying down my weapons and will post no more. But this Nelson person is a total dickhead. HE is the bad kitty. Stop pretending like there is no one who started this. He hurled personal attacks and was threatening. He is the villain here. Totally uncool the shit that he has pulled.

I love hearing other people&#39;s opinions and think debate can be fun. But not with someone like this in the mix. Makes me ashamed that some of my ancestory comes from his country.

Its ASS in the USA, not ARSE.

And dude. You can&#39;t spell worth a damn. Did you make it past 7th grade?

 

[B_HungSpermBoy]

I don&#39;t understand why so many christians including the catholics are so afraid & conservative. Maybe this is just my prejudice, but it seems like more & more religious people, moslims,christians & jews are all becoming more & more hostile to open-mindedness. Fear seems to be the conservative reaction to all things that people don&#39;t understand. Sorry if I offend anybody.

 

[dolf250]

Originally posted by naughty@Apr 21 2005, 04:11 AM

Shhhhhh Mr.Heath I am trying to use any sneaky lowdown method to get the bad kiddies to behave themselves&#33; LOL&#33;

Naughty

[post=302790]Quoted post[/post]​

Actually, for the most part the posts that have stuck to the topic of religion and/or the pope have been pretty tame. The posts that have been personal attacks have had very little to do with one’s view on the pope, Catholicism or Christianity in general. I have actually learned a little about the role of the pope within the Catholic church (thanks DMW.) and possible reasons for choosing this man over all other candidates for the position (thanks to Aloofman.)

 

[dolf250]

Originally posted by HungSpermBoy@Apr 21 2005, 06:33 AM
I don&#39;t understand why so many christians including the catholics are so afraid & conservative. Maybe this is just my prejudice, but it seems like more & more religious people, moslims,christians & jews are all becoming more & more hostile to open-mindedness. Fear seems to be the conservative reaction to all things that people don&#39;t understand. Sorry if I offend anybody.

[post=302813]Quoted post[/post]​

You should not be sorry if you offend somebody for you views and observations. I am not sorry for offence that my opinions and views cause. They are my beliefs and I feel that I am entitled to them. The only reason to be sorry about offending people is if they are offended by the presentation of the message and not the content. If done in a disrespectful manner then I would offer an apology, but your post was certainly your observations put forth in a respectful manner. In that spirit I am going to try to get my thoughts across about possible reasons for the fear that you have observed that seems to show itself in all religions.

I agree that there has been some overreaction by some Christians, but weather people realize it or not society is changing and it is in many ways trying to change the church with it. The changes that most people fear are not from within the church, but rather changes that others are pushing. To use gay marriage as an example Anglicans are accepting of it and willing to marry gays and lesbians. I feel that the reason that this has generally been accepted within their organization was because it was done from within the church and not as something they were pressured into. Many Christians of other religions would disagree with their stance, but so long as it was an internal decision that reflects their beliefs I cannot see the problem. If Anglicans disagree strongly enough they are free to leave the church and join or start another or to put pressure on their leadership to change again.

The problem arises when government and individuals who are not of that particular religion try to pressure the church into adopting a position. A bishop in my city had a number of complaints to the provincial board for human rights simply for suggesting that the members of his congregation send letters opposing same sex marriage to their MP’s. While I am not suggesting that the state blindly accept the bishops views I am saying that in a democracy if you feel strongly on any issue and wish to send a letter to your representative, you, as a member of the society should be allowed to do so and your opinion weighed and considered. The government also threatened the same Bishop with revoking his churches tax exempt status if he said anything at all last election concerning what was at the time the rather hot issue of gay marriage (Huge shock in the stance of the parties. The Liberals who are the ruling party are for it and the Conseratives are against. What this means is that the ruling party effectively said that if he vocalized his opposition to their parties policies they would bankrupt his church.) This is nothing short of the state interfering in the church, and quite frankly it scares me when they have the power to (at least attempt) to silence the leader of a major religion for his views. Bishop Fred Henry is not disrespectful in his language and he is not suggesting that gays be burned at the stake; only that in his interpretation of the bible, men should not be allowed to marry men and women should not be allowed to marry women. If I recall correctly he did not have a problem with a civil union or the likes, but he is worried that once it becomes a marriage that he would be bound by our laws to perform the ceremony. It is when people from various religions see these types of tactics (hauling a man before a board for his views and threatening him with the full power of the state) being used that they become fearful and as such likely get more defensive and more hostile towards ANY change.

Well, it’s very late and I’m ready for bed. I hope that what I typed makes some sort of sense.

 

[prepstudinsc]

I think that everyone is entitled to their opinions when we can express them in an adult manner. However there are some people on here who have gone off on people like loaded cannons, totally unprovoked, and then play the martyr when confronted.

Nelson&#39;s experience in Scotland is totally different than ours is in the United States.
I don&#39;t agree with most of what the Catholic Church believes in except for the fundamentals of the faith, as outlined in the Apostle&#39;s and Nicene creeds. While I don&#39;t believe in having to recite a creed to declare my faith, they do outline the tenets of the Christian faith. I feel that there are too many added manmade doctrines in the Catholic church that can&#39;t be documented by Scripture. That&#39;s my perogative to believe. However I don&#39;t fault anyone for believing otherwise.
It&#39;s not my place to judge.

Several people are ready to leave LPSG because of confrontations here. We&#39;ve got to be able to have mature dialogue. I honestly don&#39;t blame Nelson for his response early on this thread because of the smart ass response that he was given. Let&#39;s all just think with some level heads and think before we post. We don&#39;t want to lose any of our good posters because it&#39;s about to happen.

 

[13788]

orionsword57:

Originally posted by HungSpermBoy@Apr 20 2005, 10:33 PM
I don&#39;t understand why so many christians including the Catholics are so afraid & conservative. Maybe this is just my prejudice, but it seems like more & more religious people, moslims,christians & jews are all becoming more & more hostile to open-mindedness. Fear seems to be the conservative reaction to all things that people don&#39;t understand.

[post=302813]Quoted post[/post]​

Had a long discussion on this subject with a friend yesterday. People who espouse religions based on love for one&#39;s fellow man/woman are doing just the opposite. My friend believes that the current atmosphere of fear and intolerance are an unfortunate and not-thought-out reaction to a sense of an overall breakdown in accountability in our society. Folks who believe in being responsible citizens see others not being accountable and then not suffering consequences. Open-mindedness is mistakenly seen as an approval of this imagined flaunting of rules and mores by the irresponsible. Those are broad-brush statements, to be sure, and I believe a bit off base, but she feels in general that we strike back at this frustration by being intolerant.

We did agree, however, that things are starting to change. With the new focus on honesty in accounting and in corporate governance, there may be a shift back to more societal accountability in the future, ie... a reversal of the pendulum.

FWIW

 

[surferboy]

I&#39;ve said it before, I, personally, think that the Pope has WAY too much power outside of the Church. And he does influence the opinions of many people in the world. And Pope Papaltine has a lot of dangerous views. It&#39;s kind of scary, to be honest.

 

[BobLeeSwagger]

Remember that it&#39;s the extremists among any group that get the most attention. I&#39;m pretty confident that the majority within all major religions are more or less the live-and-let-live types. But by definition, those who say "to each his own" doesn&#39;t get the headlines.

 

[Altairion]

Originally posted by clownboots19+Apr 20 2005, 01:18 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clownboots19 &#064; Apr 20 2005, 01:18 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by Altairion@Apr 20 2005, 11:24 AM
Overall, I&#39;m not a very religious person and I&#39;ll admit to that now. I&#39;m also fairly young only being 21......" While I would like to see someone in the position who would be more tolerant towards homosexuals or a person who had absolutely no connection with the Nazi party (especially immediately following a Pope from Poland), these are just my views.

[post=302557]Quoted post[/post]​

Altairion, you aren&#39;t waiting to find a Pope or catholic church more accepting of your own views before you become a little more religious are you?

[post=302570]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b]

Just thought I&#39;d throw up a comment on this one: I&#39;m not specifically waiting for a church that is more accepting of my own beliefs (mainly because I don&#39;t truly have them set yet anyway), but I&#39;m saying that there will never truly be a church that fully fits with the beliefs of a single person (not even the Pope himself).

<!--QuoteBegin-prepstudinsc@Apr 21 2005, 07:48 AM
Several people are ready to leave LPSG because of confrontations here. We&#39;ve got to be able to have mature dialogue. I honestly don&#39;t blame Nelson for his response early on this thread because of the smart ass response that he was given. Let&#39;s all just think with some level heads and think before we post. We don&#39;t want to lose any of our good posters because it&#39;s about to happen.

[post=302874]Quoted post[/post]​

[/quote]

While Nelson should have addressed his problem with a response that followed his post, he didn&#39;t it in a completely immature way. The first step to maintaining respect for yourself here is to show it to others whether they showed it to you or not. I hope we don&#39;t have anyone considering leaving right now, and if there are some concerns about the dialogues on the board, I would really like to hear who has them along whether things can be improved or not.

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by surferboy@Apr 21 2005, 10:13 AM
I&#39;ve said it before, I, personally, think that the Pope has WAY too much power outside of the Church. And he does influence the opinions of many people in the world. And Pope Papaltine has a lot of dangerous views. It&#39;s kind of scary, to be honest.

[post=302927]Quoted post[/post]​

Nixxy you may be right. However, I lived in a time before Pope John Paul II. Pope Paul VI didn&#39;t have the world wide "power" outside the catholic church that John Paul II had. That was because of John Paul&#39;s sheer personality and ability to win the hearts of people. I don&#39;t think this new Pope will ever have that kind of power.

That power outside of the church was John Paul&#39;s personal power due to his ability to be a great leader. Great here refers to the qualities that all leaders with power have. A great leader by definition means to be able to lead others down a path. The path may be a good path or a bad path, but the leader is, by a social studies defintion, a great leader defined by his ability to lead people and gain their total respect and for those people to follow him as leader. You yourself have said that by that definition John Paul was a real leader and the social studies term here is great leader. And you sensed he had too much leadership power. You recognized the truth that John Paul probably was the most powerful leader in the second half of the 20th century. Good or bad. Wonderful or horrible. That is a statement most political anlalyst would agree with.

I doubt very seriously that the new Pope will have any impact on the church except to keep it right where it was when John Paul died. It will fall to the next Pope to make the changes that the catholic church thinks it needs to move on to the next generation.

And I will respect what they do. Since I am Methodist, I will spend my energy there in working for change.


For the record, I have been keeping up with everything. Your comment about the Pope may have been offensive to some, but so have some of my comments about the Bush that sits (or perhaps add a letter h ) to the word in the white house.

But physical violence is not an appropraite response and I am sorry someone thought it necessary to alude to putting you in the hospital for a week. That was totally inappropriate.

Nixxie, if this new Pope had not been selected by Pope John Paul as really second in command, I too would be worried. But John Paul suffered greatly at the hands of the Nazis. If this new Pope had any leanings toward being a Nazi, then I am sure that John Paul would not have put him in the position he put him in. All that Poland suffered under Hitler and all that John Paul and his family suffered was just to great for John Paul to overlook any Nazi leaning tendencies in this new pope.

So, I am going to forgive the new Pope for his forced membership into the Nazi youth group and his being in the army when drafted. He did go AWOL and could have been shot for doing so. I will take his word that he was forced to join and was anti Nazi all along.

I am concerned about his apparent strong anti gay views and I am concerned about some other doctrines. But I am not Roman Catholic so I will disagree with the Roman Catholics on those issues, but we do have religious freedom here in the USA. You can be a Buddhist without any discrimination toward you. And I can be a Methodist without discrimination. That religious freedom that allows you and I do be what we are also allows people to believe that you and I are going to hell in a hand basket for thinking it is OK to be gay if that is what they want to believe. It doesn&#39;t make it so.

I strongly believe that there is some universal truth that we humans can&#39;t change. I also believe that no one human has access to all that truth and has the abiity to communicate it perfectly without making some mistakes in "stating that universal truth." Each of us has the freedom to identify that universal truth and if we are right, great. If we are wrong. Oops&#33; I just don&#39;t think any one man has that power to make that decision for other people. In short I can&#39;t nor you can&#39;t change universal truth whatever it may be.

Again, I have told you many times how much I love you as a person. I think of you like a son and would be proud if you were my son. It did upset me when someone physically threatened you.

Hugs and Kisses
Love you
Freddie