Health Care "Myths"

Discussion in 'Politics' started by B_Enough_for_Me, Sep 1, 2009.

  1. B_Enough_for_Me

    B_Enough_for_Me New Member

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    I derailed the last thread on this, so I will start a new one.

    Today the Congressional Research Service released its report on HR3200 the House version of the infamous health care bill. They had some good findings as far as illegal immigrants getting health care:

    "HR 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens participating in
    the Exchange—whether the noncitizens are legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently."


    Here is another finding that scares me a bit:
    "Section 401 of H.R. 3200 includes an individual mandate to have health insurance unless expressly exempted, with penalties for noncompliance effective in 2013."


    "Individuals who do not maintain acceptable health insurance coverage for themselves and their children would be required to pay an additional tax."

    That doesn't bother anyone? You have to buy insurance. You can't pay out of pocket. You can't say, "this month I want to save my money." Honestly, if I had to buy insurance I couldn't have made it through my first two years of college.


    Another great question is: who gets to say what is 'acceptable'?

    An additional poke in the side: "[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=#232021][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=#232021][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=#232021]Some individuals, including nonresident aliens, would not be required to obtain health insurance under H.R. 3200 (i.e., would be exempt from the individual mandate)." Wow. Just plain wow. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]



    [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]A morsel for you insurance company haters out there[/SIZE][/FONT]: "[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=#232021][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=#232021][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=#232021]In 2013, under H.R. 3200, some individuals would be eligible for premium credits (i.e., subsidies based on income) toward their required purchase of health insurance." So, tax dollars would be going directly to insurance companies on top of the premiums they can already charge. It doesn't take a genius to realize that health care cost would then go up....dramatically.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=#232021][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=#232021]


    [SIZE=1][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#232021][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#232021][URL]http://media.sfexaminer.com/documents/noncitizens.pdf[/URL][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
    [URL]http://www.loc.gov/crsinfo/[/URL][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE]
     
  2. B_Mister Buildington

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    What insurance company do you work for? Or are you just an angry, threatened white person?


    lol, just trollin'
     
  3. houtx48

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    i say nationalize insurance, pharmaceuticals and all health care providers or the government could stop protecting these industry's and let a little competition come into play and then see where the prices level out.
     
  4. sargon20

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  5. Jason

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    A UK view is that health cover is essential, and we all have it. Treatments can be well beyond the means of even the wealthy, so absolutely everyone needs insurance. Someone who can afford say a fortune for a course of treatment can sure afford a health insurance premium.

    In Britain we do this through National Insurance. It is a type of income tax which covers health and pension, and yes it is compulsary. There are reduced rates for people who really cannot pay much, and these can be absolutely miniscule, but still everyone pays. The sore point in the British system is that you cannot opt out. If you pay into a private pension it is additionally to your state pension (not instead of) which most people find acceptable. But if you buy private health insurance you pay both the state and the private health insurance in full.

    Of course the US has to have a degree of compulsion in buying insurance cover. It is not an option for a civilised country to do other than treat someone who is ill, so it cannot be an option to not make provision. It has to be regarded as a first call on income.
     
  6. houtx48

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    Jason, what is the advantage of private insurance over the state coverage?
     
  7. HazelGod

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    Actually, I have a problem with this in principle. I've long believed that state mandates to hold auto liability insurance are basically moneymaking rackets for both insurers and the states, and this reads like a mandate. The distinction is that driving is a privilege, where healthcare (IMO) should be a basic right.

    That said, some of your basic Chicken Little warbles are answered by actually reading the proposed bill. For example, Sec. 401(A)(b)(1) provides that the maximum tax penalty assessed shall not exceed the acceptable national average premium for the given tax year, and goes on to define what constitutes that quantity. Sec.
    401(A)(b)(2) stipulates that the tax penalty will be prorated for the portion of the tax year when you did not hold insurance.

    The real fun is
    Sec. 401(A)(c), which covers exemptions from this mandate...specifically Sec. [FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#232021][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][FONT=Garamond][SIZE=3]401(A)(c)(5) which allows for self-exemption based on religious beliefs.[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT]


    Again, read the text of the bill. [COLOR=#232021][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=#232021][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#232021][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#232021][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][FONT=Garamond][SIZE=3]401(A)(d)(2) defines the acceptable coverage requirements.[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]

    Really, wow? How many NRA's do you know who file income tax returns? Nothing to see here.


    Yeah, I have a huge problem with this as well. There should not be ANY mechanism that funnels public funds into the hands of private insurers. Period.
     
  8. B_Enough_for_Me

    B_Enough_for_Me New Member

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    I think time will tell which system is better, assuming ours doesn't get wrecked by empty minded do-gooders.

    In the US sick people cannot be turned away. There are numerous government programs that cover people who can't afford insurance. Even though insurance isn't the only way to be covered.
     
  9. midlifebear

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    'Tis true that in the USA no one can be (or should be) turned away when they need health care. But talk to those with a few assets (equity in their mortgage, a 401K, etc.) and you'll soon discover that hospitals will go after those small assets to recoup costs after servicing the uninsured with a stay in the hospital. If you have absolutely nothing and live in a cardboard box behind a restaurant in Santa Monica, I guess the "free health care" you may receive will, indeed, be free.
     
    #9 midlifebear, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2009
  10. B_Enough_for_Me

    B_Enough_for_Me New Member

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    Agreed.



    [FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#232021][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][FONT=Garamond][SIZE=3][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT]

    I'm just repeating what the CRS said. They aren't 'chicken little warbles' they are little scary facts that the administration is bold face lying about.

    So, you cite to me that the penalty is the full premium and this is some how supposed to make it better? This is seriously freaky shit.

    Further, the government already has religous exemptions for all kinds of thing, like the military. Do you know how hard it is to get one of those exemptions? It isn't like you walk in and say, "My God tells me not to participate," and some government customer service agent (oxymoron) say, "Oh, Ok, have a nice day....heres your money back." No, once they get their hooks in you are in for good.
    [COLOR=#232021][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=#232021][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#232021][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#232021][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][FONT=Garamond][SIZE=3] And you think this is set in stone after this bill passes? No. It will change. Hopefully the republicans will start chipping at it the minute it passes. [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#232021][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=#232021][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#232021][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]
    [/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]

    Point is, the illegals don't have to be covered while the rest of the citizens do. They don't have to pay the tax penalty for not being covered. So, when they apply for their green cards we can't charge them with the back taxes. Amnesty has been a long running democrat stronghold to get the hispanic vote, this is just another step to making that happen




    Oddly, there is nobody that agrees with this bill entirely except insurance companies.
     
  11. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

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    It's true that sick people can't be turned away from most EMERGENCY ROOMS. But try to make an appointment with a doctor for routine care and tell them you don't have insurance or the means to pay......that's a whole other story:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/13/health/13clinic.html?_r=1&scp=7&sq=health care free&st=cse
     
  12. Penis Aficionado

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    I keep coming back to the same thing: It doesn't matter whether the government or insurance companies pay the medical bills. Until doctors and hospitals are required to digitize medical information and share it with their colleagues, and until medical professionals are all paid by salary rather than by procedure, health care in the United States will be costly, inefficient and largely incompetent.
     
  13. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

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    You're right, insurance isn't the only way to be covered, some people have to move to Mexico:
    Mexico's health care lures Americans - USATODAY.com
     
  14. B_Enough_for_Me

    B_Enough_for_Me New Member

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    Why is non-emergency care any different than anything else? If you show up at the grocery store and can't pay for food they don't give you a free pass to get whatever you want. They also don't socialize it and make the rich people pay for the poor peoples food. Well, beyond welfare or food stamps; but those aren't available to everyone. Same goes for your car. I can't go into my mechanic and say, "fix my car for free, I don't have any money." Even though I could lose my livelihood by not being able to drive. Having the ability to get out of a neighborhood to find better employment could be difference between a life in poverty and a middle class life. For some reason we understand that we should cram the government down our throats in that situation.

    I hate to say it, but the only reason everybody cares is because the administration is pushing it. If they lay off we'll go right back to hating something else.
     
  15. B_Enough_for_Me

    B_Enough_for_Me New Member

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    There is nobody saying that socialized heath care is efficient or competent. The only argument that it will be cheaper is coming from people who have to pay out of pocket now.

    From an economic standpoint, making people pay for the procedure makes the system far more efficient; it prevents waste. Every socialized system has problems with people going to the doctor for things they could fix themselves.
     
  16. vince

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    You are not seriously comparing fixing your car with being in the hospital? Send your car to the dealership and have the engine and tranny changed and it will take a week and cost what? 10 grand? Spend a week in the hospital for major surgery and you will have to take out a second mortgage to pay for it.

    Your argument is a strawman. No one has suggest socializing the grocery store since V. Lenin.

    This anti-socialism stuff I read in American media is such nonsense. "Private" insurance in principle is a form of socialism. A group of people pooling resourses and spreading the risk for the greater good, is what it is in theory. The way it practised, is another thing of course.

    The system in the US needs reform, I don't think anyone good rationally argue otherwise. But I the polarized nature of the political scene pretty much guarantees failure. There are too many special interests, too much idealogy and a serious amount of profits at stake, for there to be a good outcome. It'll be at best a bunch of half measures, everyone's congressional seat will be safe, insure's profits will be intact, Wall St will be satified and the taxpayers will be left holding the bag again, with very little to show of it and a distinct feeling of fullness in the ass.
     
  17. DonkeyHungLad

    DonkeyHungLad Member

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    I come from a country where the health Care has been nationalised and despite what Mr.Daniel Hannon says, the NHS works.

    The NHS guided my grandmother through terminal cancer, allowing her to keep her dignity in tact as well as providing world class serivce.

    The NHS guided my nephew through terminal leukemia. The odds were stacked up against him but the NHS delivered and saved his life.

    My cousin was told that she was going die because only half her heart was functional. The NHS saved her life.

    Don't believe everything you hear. As far as waiting lists go, I found a lump on my leg last week and rang my GPs office in the morning. He seen me at luchtime. And this is in the middle of a Swine Flu Pandemic.

    My advice to all Americans would be to embrace the change that you voted for in 2008. Don't say no to Obama's plan. Build a new America with him. Say Yes.

    FYI, I was a Hillary supporter, so I feel completley neutral towards Obama.
     
  18. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    A different take on the NHS:

    My Cancer and lesson in healthcare
     
  19. Industrialsize

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    The MYTH is comparing health care reform in the usa with "socialized medicine"......not ONE bill making its way through congress call for "socialized medicine". No matter how many times trinity posts a youtube clip from 2003 it;'s still not true.
     
  20. D_Pubert Stabbingpain

    D_Pubert Stabbingpain Account Disabled

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    Concerning the 18 month COBRA health care coverage alluded to above, there is still a steep charge for that even though most on COBRA are still unemployed and still have to fork up the Insurance company's deductible and their 20% (soon to be 35%) profit from "covered" expenses. PLUS, when it expires and you have to get new health insurance, the dreaded "pre-existing condition" kicks in allowing any insurance company to deny coverage for prostate cancer or whatever IF it was previously diagnosed.

    I look at it this way, I am too young for medicare and Social Security but if unemployment continues as is probably the case due to continued layoffs in the US, I will be unable to afford the high cost of health insurance, deductibles, and Rx's. I can either pay full price that even insurance comapnies don't pay (they pay less than 50% of what a doctor bills) for health care on an "as-needed" basis or stand in line at the emergency room for hours to get free health care. Who pays for that? Every person who has private health insurance coverage because their premiums will go up. If offered a public plan that I can afford (say, half the cost of my COBRA), the tax payer forks up the cash. It seems to me that in the final analysis, a public plan will take less from the taxpayer pocket because the cost is spread nation-wide. If the cost of my care is simply pushed into higher private company premiums you have to figure in profit, shareholder gains and I will have to fight any pre-existing conditions. With no public option, move over illegals, I'm coming in!

    Anyone here from our neighbor to the north? Canada has universal health care, right? Are they "socialist?"
     
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