Health Care "Myths"

[deleted213967]

Pharmaceutical Industry: America is #1 NOT!

Top 10 pharmaceutical companies by revenue 2008:


1 Novartis Switzerland 2 Pfizer USA 3 Bayer Germany 4 GlaxoSmithKline United Kingdom 5 Johnson & Johnson USA 6 Sanofi-Aventis France 7 Hoffmann–La Roche Switzerland 8 AstraZeneca UK/Sweden 9 Merck & Co. USA 10 Abbott Laboratories USA

 

[Industrialsize]

Pharmaceutical Industry: America is #1 NOT!

Top 10 pharmaceutical companies by revenue 2008:


1 Novartis Switzerland 2 Pfizer USA 3 Bayer Germany 4 GlaxoSmithKline United Kingdom 5 Johnson & Johnson USA 6 Sanofi-Aventis France 7 Hoffmann–La Roche Switzerland 8 AstraZeneca UK/Sweden 9 Merck & Co. USA 10 Abbott Laboratories USA

But how can that be? Those are all socialist countries!...............

 

[Trinity]

Just one lie, out several listed by The He/She and Holy its post: High Frequency Ultrasound treatment (HIFU) for prostate cancer IS NOT available in the USA.

There was no lie in my post. If you comprehend the article by the man who wrote it, then you would understand what he stated. Perhaps you should read it again.

Another out right lie in that post is that the most advanced, cutting edge treatments for prostate cancer are developed in the USA. Wrong! Wrong in so many ways. The current robotic surgical procedure for saving nerves while cutting away all of the prostate and affected surrounding cancerous tissue was developed by a medical research group made up of Spanish and German engineers and surgeons. In fact, the one place in the world where men from other countries come in flocks to have such radical surgery is Barcelona where it's common for La Clinica Central Urologo to do three surgeries at the same time (they have the most robotic machines), knocking about 9 surgeries a day outof the park using this procedure. There are also a couple of these same robotic surgical machines engineered specifically for prostate cancer in Madrid, too.

Again, there was no lie in the man's article:

Second robot improves robotic prostate surgery

Johns Hopkins researchers have developed a new technique that may improve robotic prostate surgery by using a second robot for taking three-dimensional ultrasound images of the prostate and surrounding structures during the procedure.

 

[cruztbone]

Trinity, the clear fact that the insurance industry is SCARED SHITLESS that the federal government is considering insuring health care for people only underscores the fact that the feds can do it cheaper , better and faster than the health care industry, which is currently paying for 50,000 lobbyists to span the country spreading their lies and clear misinformation in order to prop up profits for shareholders. that is not the American way; read the preamble to the constitution. "to promote the general welfare" means what it says. for you conservatives who constantly bend the constitution to reward the wealthy and powerful. it is no wonder you hate an educated, articulate president who can simultaneously do many things well. YOU CANT DO ANYTHING RIGHT ONE ISSUE AT A TIME!

 

[Trinity]

If that is your view, then please explain why you think that America can't do these things well? What is it about the the U.S. system that makes you all unable to function efficiently as a collective?

Deutsche Post and La Poste work great. :smile:

I believe that would be a great question for President Obama. It isn't my view...it is fact. Obama recently stated as much regarding the U.S. Postal Service in a townhall.

I will if you will. See above and note that you did not provide any citations for your claims about Social Security, Medicare. Medicaid, or the Post Office.

Bankruptcy Looms for Medicare, Social Security

Social Security and Medicare are fading even faster under the weight of the recession, heading for insolvency years sooner than previously expected, the government warned Tuesday. Social Security will start paying out more in benefits than it collects in taxes in 2016, a year sooner than projected last year, and the giant trust fund will be depleted by 2037, four years sooner, trustees reported.
Medicare is in even worse shape. The trustees said the program for hospital expenses will pay out more in benefits than it collects this year, just as it did for the first time in 2008. The trustees project that the Medicare fund will be depleted by 2017, two years earlier than the date projected in last year’s report.

One of the largest problems with Medicare and Medicaid is the huge amount of fraud and overuse that takes place. The entire system encourages the lowest quality of all citizens to breed like rabbits and fill up doctor’s offices. In turn, many doctors see this as nothing but a huge cash cow in which they can make large profits by overcharging and encouraging the overuse of services by their patients. Medicaid is obviously the worst culprit in promoting this behavior. The patients don’t care because to them it’s free healthcare, and doctors don’t care because the profits are abundant.

USPS suffers $2.8B loss

The US Postal Service today said it suffered a net loss of $2.8 billion for the fiscal year 2008, which ended September 30.
The Postal Service blamed the loss on the national economic slowdown lowering mail volume, and additional costs mandated by the Postal Act of 2006.
The USPS said the loss occurred despite more than $2 billion in cost-cutting measures that included the use of 50 million fewer workhours compared to the previous year.

(actually, no. I won't give you any "citations". I won't play the "Cut and paste links that prove me right" game with you. It's waste of pixels.)

Vince you made statements without any support. This is a political discussion. You don't have to cut and paste anything but a link to support for your statements.

I have always thought that in scientific research and innovation in the U.S is the world leader. Along with Germany and the UK of course. I think that the inventiveness of the people is due to their basic values, the education system and the culture of enterprise in the U.S. I doubt that the profits of insurance companies have much to do with it.

Agreed

The family that has a medical crisis and has no insurance, or has paid high premiums for years only to be denied payment of their bills due to a "pre-existing condition" or whatever, does not give a damn about how many Nobel prizes have been awarded to American scientists.

Agreed. But I was addressing this statement posted by you:

To those who say that a government run health plan would raise costs and government would have no interest in containing increases, I ask why is it that study after study indicates that in the U.S., the money spent per capita or as a ratio of GDP is the highest in the developed world? Those same studies indicate that despite spending way more of the national wealth on heathcare, the services the average citizen recieves is relatively poor compared to what is provided in other developed countries with national health care plans.

The article addresses some of the answers as to why the U.S. spends more per capita.

Actually it didn't point that out at all.

Yes it did.

If fact, in the last paragraph says-

"American health care has many problems. Health insurance is linked too tightly to employment, and too many people cannot afford insurance. Insurance companies put too much energy into avoiding payments. Personal medical records are kept on paper rather than in accessible electronic fashion. Emergency rooms are not always well suited to serve as last-resort health care for the poor. Most fundamentally, the lack of good measures of health care quality makes it hard to identify and eliminate waste."

Yep. That is in the last paragraph. But so is this:

These problems should be addressed, but it would be hasty to conclude that the United States should move closer to European health care institutions. The American health care system, high expenditures and all, is driving innovation for the entire world.

NY Times

 

[lucky8]

Fines proposed for going without health insurance - Yahoo! News

"Myth: Confirmed"

 

[midlifebear]

Dear He/She and the Holy It:

I didn't really misread the article. You linked an article written by someone who did/does not have all of the facts. Also, the fabulous "tri-dimensional" robotic surgery which you think is so cool is already done in Spain. Maybe not the way it's done in the USA, but it's highly successful for cutting out the prostate and affected tissues while preserving the nerves that go directly through the prostate and are largely responsible for a man being able to have an erection. But there are other factors.

Even better, it's not just tri-dimensional imaging that is used with HIFU. Even my brachytherapy was conducted while the surgeon viewed my prostate via a sonic image, low infra-red image, and two arthroscopic images -- hmmmm. . . I think that's four images? Just imagine: four separate cathode ray screens giving him four different views? How "cutting edge." And for my urologist/surgeon, the only way he would consider seeding the tumors in my prostate. In the USA they use the MRI they took two or three weeks earlier illuminated with a back light and one athroscope. FACT: Brachytherapy has a higher success rate for curing PC in Europe, Argentina, and even Mexico than in the USA. I wonder why?

One thing not mentioned[/B] in the article you posted that was written by some poor dude without all of the facts is that when a man is diagnosed as positive for prostate cancer and it's determined to be Stage One (or more often guessed as being stage one, because in the USA they tend to be cheap and simply depend on a rise in 2 points of a PSA test whereas in other countries they usually do an MRI a CAT scan as well as a radioactive die specific set of x-ray of the lower spine to see if there is a chance what may be simply an elevated PSA level is not cancer that has spread to surrounding tissues -- especially the pelvic bones), is that the STANDARD PROCEDURE in the USA is "to wait and see." Intermountain Health, Blue Cross, Aetna, Cigna, and Humana ALL follow this procedure hoping that men with Stage One prostate cancer will die of something else before the PC spreads bad enough to require surgery ASAP. Isn't that a wonderful way to practice medicine? Their excuse: "Well, LOTS of things can cause an elevated PSA.

Patient: "So, you say I have prostate cancer?"
DR: "Yes, but it's very early. You're not going to die from it this year."
Patient: "So, why wait and not treat it now when it's so easy to eradicate?"
DR: "Because in the USA we expect you to die of something else before it becomes a serious problem. Now, if you had Stage Two PC we could probably get your insurance to kick in, but right now it's too soon to do anything about it."

Yeah, that's right. PC isn't considered a real problem unless you've got golden insurance without restrictions. Otherwise, they wait until you "happen" to live past the age an insurance actuary thinks you should be dead; and by then you're looking a very few options that usually include chemotherapy and radiation in addition to major surgery. Then they make a holy bloody mess leaving you incontinent and in pain the rest of what life you may have left.

Interesting that they don't take the same view regarding breast cancer Miss Holy It. I'd LOVE to hear your thoughts on women being asked to "wait and see" regarding breast tumors. Ooops. I forgot. They do ask women to "wait and see" after a "not exactly positive" lumpectomy or feel that you just have calcium deposits in the fatty tissue of your breasts -- unless you've got expensive, designer golden insurance.

The main idea of universal insurance is to catch diseases early so they can be easily cured. Obviously, you're not terribly concerned with that.

I had the option of "wait and see" and didn't understand the reasoning behind it. At 55 years of age I had a 98% chance of a complete cure. At 65 that cure rate dropped to 50%. I plan on living in the best possible health well beyond 75, and if I continue to live in Spain the majority of each year, I can expect to continue to enjoy better health and a much better life than if I stick around in the USA listening to a bunch of my fellow citizens hone their ability to lie and obfuscate reality.

Had a breast exam lately?

 

[Trinity]

Dear He/She and the Holy It:

I didn't really misread the article.

You obviously did misread the article. You can argue prostate cancer treatment all you want. There was no lie in that man's article. You were incorrect.

The main idea of universal insurance is to catch diseases early so they can be easily cured. Obviously, you're not terribly concerned with that.

You know, back during the primary Hillary Clinton told Barack Obama the same thing when he was against mandates which would cover everyone to facilitate early detection and prevention:

The next important issue on which they differ is in their ideas for health care reform. While both understand the need for a change in the current system to help the many uninsured Americans, there is an important difference in their plans. While Hillary wishes for every American to have mandatory universal health care, Obama believes that only children should have mandatory health care.

John B. Phillips, ezinearticles.com

 

[Ajacoid]

Government interference in the health insurance industry along with trial lawyers driving up health care cost are the true cause of expensive health insurance. Yet nothing in HR3200 addresses these issues.

97% of Americans living below the poverty line have cable service, color TVs, and cell phones. All brought to them cheaply by the free market. Tort reform (loser pays) and let the free market loose on health care insurance and problem solved.

 

[Industrialsize]

Government interference in the health insurance industry along with trial lawyers driving up health care cost are the true cause of expensive health insurance. Yet nothing in HR3200 addresses these issues.

97% of Americans living below the poverty line have cable service, color TVs, and cell phones. All brought to them cheaply by the free market. Tort reform (loser pays) and let the free market loose on health care insurance and problem solved.

Not really.
The Medical Malpractice Myth


...The best attempt to synthesize the academic literature on medical malpractice is Tom Baker's The Medical Malpractice Myth, published last November. Baker, a law professor at the University of Connecticut who studies insurance, argues that the hype about medical malpractice suits is "urban legend mixed with the occasional true story, supported by selective references to academic studies." After all, including legal fees, insurance costs, and payouts, the cost of the suits comes to less than one-half of 1 percent of health-care spending. If anything, there are fewer lawsuits than would be expected, and far more injuries than we usually imagine....

The medical malpractice myth. - By Ezra Klein - Slate Magazine

 

[deleted213967]

Government interference in the health insurance industry along with trial lawyers driving up health care cost are the true cause of expensive health insurance. Yet nothing in HR3200 addresses these issues.

So an aging population, medical progress, poor health habits, fee-for-service, and Orwellian privately-run, multi-payer bureaucracy have nothing to do with it?

 

[B_VinylBoy]

97% of Americans living below the poverty line have cable service, color TVs, and cell phones. All brought to them cheaply by the free market.

More like the evolution of technology at work here, not just the "Free Market". You're talking about technologies that has been around for 35 years or more. If a corporation could get away with charging higher, premium prices for the same stuff they would. However, a company knows to drop prices to keep up with new trends in order to maintain competitiveness in the marketplace. They know to look into materials that allow them to manufacture the same goods at a lower price, therefore being able to price their items lower to spur competition. But when there's no competition (as in the case of Private Health Insurance), prices for goods are set by the people who control everything and the consumer has no choice but to accept the terms or do without. That's why some record labels can still produce vinyl and charge $30 for a full length album; something that would have been $15 just a decade ago.

Even in the freest market, some level of regulation needs to be in place to make sure technology continues to evolve and prices remain competitive. The 97% you source as being in poverty with a TV & phone would never be able to afford them if Zenith & Mother Bell had control of all the properties over the last 40 years. We'd probably still be using tubes and rotary dials as well.

 

[Zeuhl34]

97% of Americans living below the poverty line have cable service, color TVs,

Do they even make black-and-white TVs anymore?:tongue:

 

[deleted213967]

Do they even make black-and-white TVs anymore?:tongue:

Well, he certainly had a point about the well-documented benefits of a free-market model, although the facts he stated had more to do with free international trade than with the reliance on the private sector here in the US.

In fact, one of the reasons cell phone service is so relatively uncompetitive and expensive in the US is the federal government's failure to step in early in the game and impose the international GSM standard from the onset.

Nonetheless, health care is an order of magnitude more complex than the mass-production of WalMart junk. It also requires more complex solutions.