Hell and non Christian people...

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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Dr. Dilznick said:
once filtered through Talmudic interpretation.

I kind of hit on this in my post. It all has to do with perspective, history, and interpretation. Pretty much any religion can be twisted around to serve the perverse desires of the power-hungry, bigoted or hypocritical who count themselves as followers of that religion. Whether any of them do or not is partially just a matter of circumstance.

Christianity does borrow most of its fire and brimstone from the Torah, this is true. But the two religions, after breaking apart following the crucifixion of Jesus, have very different histories. Scattered and homeless for years, Judaism became as much a means of holding together a dispersed and derelict people as it was a religion. Over time, as Jews became integrated into many other cultures, without any national borders or common language of their own anymore their faith became the one thing that bound them together as a people. Until today, when if you say Jew it is not clear if you are referring to someone who is Hebrew by ancestry or who follows the Jewish faith, and even then the faith itself is very fragmented much like Christianity. Though I think for Jews, given the hardships they've had to endure over the years, a sense of community usually came first and so they were spared some of the problems that faced Catholics and Protestants or Sunnis and Shii'ites. Now that Israel has been restored, and their language has been revived, Jews have a place to call home. But this was a relatively recent development in the timeline of religious history. Most of the Israelis are secular Jews or only nominally religious.

As a result of these different histories, I think that, while there is potential for anyone to twist faith or anything else to support what was described in the OP, Jews are less likely to do this than Christians. While Jews were scattered and persecuted, Christians were ruling over most of the world. If your people are the ones being pushed around and marginalized it becomes a little difficult to argue that their faith is the one true faith and that this gives you the right to persecute others. I think that partially as a result of this persecution toward Jewish people over the course of centuries, many Jews do fit the stereotype of the self-hating Jew, or at least have some kind of inferiority complex. and then there's the fact that, as a result of their unique history, the Jewish faith has come to represent cultural and ethnic identity as much or more than it represents dogmatic religious beliefs, and adherents to the faith typically do not believe the word of the Torah as literal truth as much as most Christians or Muslims do.

Granted, racial/ethnic identity can be used just as sinisterly as religion can be. (see: Holocaust, Slavery, Cambodia, Native American vs. European history, India, etc.) But, that's a different subject. My simple point was that, though Judaism does share scriptures with both Christianity and Islam, there are many reasons why we have much less to fear from fundamentalist Jews. at least for the time being.
 

JustAsking

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Dr. Dilznick said:
I bet Sklar has absolutely no clue about what happened during the Reformation. No clue at all.


Actually, the idea that the Torah is full of literal commandments that should always be taken literally wasn't big with Jews before the supposed birth of Jesus, and it would seem that some of "his" teachings reinforce this idea. Sort of on some "the letter killeth but the spirit giveth life" type shit. Anyway, Mosaic Law, once filtered through Talmudic interpretation, isn't as retarded, bloodthirsty and vengeful as people make it out to be.

Dr. Dil, thoughtful and cogent as usual. I agree enthusiastically. Among other things, Jesus was a Jewish reformer. Although his reform was a radical proposal, he was Jewish through and through. Its true that at the time in Jerusalem, the political/cultural/religious structure was wrapped up in the Temple system, which was rife with legalism but that is not what all of Judaism was about. Jesus' radical proposal was to replace the Temple system with himself. Where "himself" represents raising the beautiful compassion and love components of Judaism (which he takes right out of the Old Testament) to such a high degree of priority over Jewish Law, that it suggests a qualitative difference as well as a quantitative one.

An analogy might be if some American politician arose to convince Americans to vote in laws that radically shifted the balance of power from the federal government back to the states. In one sense it would be radically new and qualitatively different, but in another sense it would be a mistake to claim that it was not an American notion. Saying that the Jews before Jesus were only legalistic is like saying that all Americans want a completely centralized government.

Edit: Nine, I saw your post after mine. Yes, very well said. There is a Jewish fundamentalism just as there is an Islamic and a Christian one. The Christian "west" also had the advantage of geography and technology on their side (See the excellent book Guns, Germs, and Steel), so political conquest gives them the arrogance to be more assertive than the ever persecuted Jews. The American notion of Manifest Destiny (which helped justify Native American genocide) was a good example of that.
 

Love-it

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I don't know of anybody who fully understands and completely follows all of the tenets of their religion. Every religion has divided and currently has divisive elements and no two people in any religion can agree on what any of the millions of religions mean including their own.

It was suggested to my younger brother that if he started going to church it might help him obtain custody of his son, this was back when men rarely won in a divorce suit. He won custody but it was because his wife admitted she was a slut. Back to the point: brother joins a large "christian" church and after awhile he found that he didn't agree with all of their ideas; so he joined a smaller "christian" church until he found that he didn't agree with all of their thoughts; and he joined a much smaller "christian" church until he found that he didn't agree with all of their teachings and he finally wound up with just his wife and three children to preach to. One son is mentally incompetent, another is without religion and the third has been baptized in a sect that is "christian". His wife is loyal but her catholic parents believe and have told her that she is going to hell and she has returned the compliment.

Hell of a way to live.
 

AlteredEgo

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Dr. Dilznick said:
*snippety-snip* Anyway, Mosaic Law, once filtered through Talmudic interpretation, isn't as retarded, bloodthirsty and vengeful as people make it out to be.

Believe me, I know this. But the situation in this thread is as if you taught me a card game, and told me it was the traditional card game of our people, and that I should make sure to carefully observe the rules. Then I made a board game based on that card game. I got many people to play my board game. Out of reverence for the origin (and seeing that the original rules have their own relevance) I include the instructions for the original card game in the box with the board game. Then one day, someone who plays your game approaches someone who plays my game and calls them a hypocrite for not observing your rules while playing my game.

A poor analogy, I know, but it's the best I can do at the moment. Cut me some slack, I can't sleep.
 

AlteredEgo

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Love-it said:
... he didn't agree with all of their teachings and he finally wound up with just his wife and three children to preach to.
Hell of a way to live.

For years, this is how my grandmother worshipped: She, her best friend Dot, and my cousin studied the Bible in Grandma's kitchen every Friday night and Saturday morning. One day, after taking in a stranger and having him begin to worship and study with them on Saturdays, they realized they were Jews and had been practicing Judaism for some time. So they began (and completed) the long, difficult process of conversion. Before that they had belonged to many, many churches. They almost got baptized in a 7th Day Adventist church. Something about the words used during the ceremony set my grandmother off, and the three opted out. Anyway, the only person who can ever be responsible for one's soul is the individual. It is best to take spirituality into ones own hands. I enjoy my church services, but I'm certainly no Episcopalian just because I worship with them. I like the services with my congregation, but that's certainly not where my spirituality comes from. And I don't abide by many of the rules. For one thing, if I were as frank with most of my fellow parishoners about my sex life as I am with you folk, they would be scandalized (and I would be ostrasized). I think my point was: hooray for your brother and his wife.
 

AlteredEgo

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NineInchCock_160IQ said:
*snip*If your people are the ones being pushed around and marginalized it becomes a little difficult to argue that their faith is the one true faith and that this gives you the right to persecute others. I think that partially as a result of this persecution toward Jewish people over the course of centuries, many Jews do fit the stereotype of the self-hating Jew, or at least have some kind of inferiority complex.

*snip*

Granted, racial/ethnic identity can be used just as sinisterly as religion can be. (see: Holocaust, Slavery, Cambodia, Native American vs. European history, India, etc.) But, that's a different subject. My simple point was that, though Judaism does share scriptures with both Christianity and Islam, there are many reasons why we have much less to fear from fundamentalist Jews. at least for the time being.

Oh, man! You gotta come out to Brooklyn and meet some of our Hassidim. If you are black, it may be best to come armed.
 

JustAsking

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BronxBombshell said:
Believe me, I know this. But the situation in this thread is as if you taught me a card game, and told me it was the traditional card game of our people, and that I should make sure to carefully observe the rules. Then I made a board game based on that card game. I got many people to play my board game. Out of reverence for the origin (and seeing that the original rules have their own relevance) I include the instructions for the original card game in the box with the board game. Then one day, someone who plays your game approaches someone who plays my game and calls them a hypocrite for not observing your rules while playing my game.

A poor analogy, I know, but it's the best I can do at the moment. Cut me some slack, I can't sleep.
Actually, that is a really excellent analogy. But it would make the most sense to people who think religion is a set of rules.

Another analogy (and an extreme one, but extreme ones are the most instructive) is that we study Nazi Germany to learn essential truths about ourselves, however, it is not something we would advocate.
 

MidusCo.

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Let me just put this qoute :

"This is the life we chose, this is the life we lead, there is only one guarantee... none of us will see heaven."
 

AlteredEgo

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NineInchCock_160IQ said:
Hassidic Jews are strapped?
No. But that's why it's best if you are. More than once I've been told by people in my family of getting lost in a car in a Hassidic community and the only thing which preserved their life was that they ran over one or more of them and fled the scene. In one story, there was an infant in her mother's arms, and a toddler in the car. Still, the men outside the car attempted to overturn it.
 

Dr. Dilznick

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JustAsking said:
Dr. Dil, thoughtful and cogent as usual. I agree enthusiastically. Among other things, Jesus was a Jewish reformer. Although his reform was a radical proposal, he was Jewish through and through. Its true that at the time in Jerusalem, the political/cultural/religious structure was wrapped up in the Temple system, which was rife with legalism but that is not what all of Judaism was about. Jesus' radical proposal was to replace the Temple system with himself. Where "himself" represents raising the beautiful compassion and love components of Judaism (which he takes right out of the Old Testament) to such a high degree of priority over Jewish Law, that it suggests a qualitative difference as well as a quantitative one.
It was widely accepted then and is widely accepted now that the two "greatest" commandments are the essence of Judaism. Maybe most Jews had forgotten and had to be reminded of it later.

I'm not a big fan of Covenantalism. St. Paul, the creator of Christianity as we know it, had connections high up in the Roman Empire and constantly used that to his advantage in his missionary activities. Paul turned his back on the Jews because they wouldn't abandon the Law for his salvation-by-faith mythology. In the Epistles and in the Book of Acts, it is made very clear that Peter was responsible for the mission to the Jews, while Paul went exclusively to the gentiles. Paul and other Hellenized Jews made up lies such as the Sanhedrin trial in the Gospels--to demonize the Jews and make their religion more appealing to the gentiles who could read Greek. That is also why Paul was obsessed with the issue of circumcision. How could he gain gentile followers to his religion if he made them abide by Abraham's covenant? Almost no adult male would want to go through circumcision. Likewise with table laws. The Christianity you profess was created by Paul, who tried as hard as he could to get rid of the Law through underhanded theological arguments. IMHO, of course. :wink:

*moseys out of thread*
 

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Sklar said:
The true reason (in my humble opionion) that the Religious Right goes after the Gay Community more than anyone else is that if they went after their own members, they would see just how little they would be loved and would lose their money, power and support.

Sklar

They aren't really loved that much, especially when they do things like this:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,209589,00.html




Lordpendragon said:
Was the creation of Hell actually mentioned in the creation passages of Genesis? If not, when was it introduced?

Where's Dreamer when you need him?

Does Heaven exist in the same time and space as this universe, or does it exist outside?
In the ancient world the mind of the primitive man conceived an invisible world of spirits. The idea of a legion of good spirits presided over by a good or beneficent god; and, on the other hand, of a legion of demons or evil spirits presided over by an evil god or chieftan, is a notion that existed in a great many races and countries at approximately the same time.

Inevitably it followed from the concept of a heaven populated by angels, closely associated with the sun and light, that there should be created in the mind of the primitive man the concept of an abode of evil, peopled by demons, closely associated with darkness and death. In those days the earth was thought to be flat and the abode of evil was conceived to be under or inside the earth. It was given the name of hell, and presided over by Satan, Lucifer, the Serpent or the Devil, as the deity was variously referred to. In pagan faiths this presiding deity was Mercury, Dis, Sry, Python, Ahriman, Triglaf, et al. The devil of Christianity was just a substitute of the gods of evil of the ancient Greek, Egyptian, Persian, and Hebrew religions.


According to scripture Satan was one of God's angels in heaven originally. Revelation 12 v 7-9 tells of the quarrel with God that led to the banishment of Satan and his horde of fallen angels from heaven. These exiles set up and reigned over the rival and independent organization of hell. The aim of Satan (aka as the Devil) was to tempt mankind, by all manner of crafty promises, into wickedness and sin.

Part of the belief in the existence of the devil and the acknowledgement of his power, was the belief that he could be pressed into the service of mankind by means of various magical procedures known to sorcerers and those whose lives were dedicated to his service. There was also the hypothesis that the Devil and his demons caused most illnesses. The cases where maladies were God's punishment for sin were relativley few in comparison to those resulting from demonical possession.
 

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Dr. Dilznick said:
It was widely accepted then and is widely accepted now that the two "greatest" commandments are the essence of Judaism. Maybe most Jews had forgotten and had to be reminded of it later....

Yes. I think we are agreeing. But that is the same as saying the essence of Christianity is Grace. But in reality there is a huge spectrum of practice. So it was then. The Temple system itself was quite legalistic. It was an extreme that Jesus preached against.

Actually my original point was to say how Jewish Jesus was, not how much he was out to overthrow it.

Dr. Dilznick said:
...The Christianity you profess was created by Paul, who tried as hard as he could to get rid of the Law through underhanded theological arguments. IMHO, of course. :wink:

*moseys out of thread*

Yes, anyone would call me a Paulist. But I find the same theme in the Gospels. I think you and I would differ on our regard for Paul, though. That is obvious.
 

Love-it

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BronxBombshell said:
I think my point was: hooray for your brother and his wife.

My point was that heaven is going to be very thinly populated if my brother thinks that everyone else is going to hell because they don't agree with his beliefs.

Reminds me of the joke where st. peter is leading a tour of the latest group of entrants, explaining that behind this door are the catholics, behind that door the jews and behind this door the baptists. And then he says please be quiet as we go past the next door, that is where the seventh day adventists are and they think they are the only ones in heaven. Please insert or replace with, whatever religion comes to mind.
 

BarebackJack

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Sklar said:
Aside from the Jews for Jesus, most Jewish people know that Jesus was a man who was also a Rabbi. Catholics and Christians think he is the Son of God. There's a big difference in that.

Second, Jewish people believe in God as the Supreme Ruler of the Universe. Catholics and Christians seem to think that Jesus IS God. I won't even go into the Holy Trinity because, frankly, I don't understand how the Father can be the Son can be the Holy Ghost.

A little history lesson here: There was dissent among early Christians as to the nature and role of Christ, so the Emperor Constantine (who was not himself a Christian) held a council in which the exact nature of Jesus would be determined. The "son of God" role won out. But this presented a problem in its logic, so another council was held years later that invented the Holy Trinity... basically a "baffle them with bullshit" exercise that still is used today. The "logic" is that the concept of the Holy Trinity explains how Father, Son, and Holy Ghost can each exist as a deity while keeping Christianity as a monotheistic religion as opposed to a polytheistic religion.

Sklar said:
The whole War on Christianity slogan we've been hearing here in America the past couple of years seems to have shocked the Right. What they don't seem to get is that they declared war on everyone else first. We're just defending ourselves.

Well, actually, all religions have been waging war upon each other for as long as recorded history can determine. The "who waged war on who first?" argument is much like the "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" puzzle. In fact, it is because of the holy wars in the first century AD that Constantine decided to hold the councils as a means of bringing peace to his citizens.

Sklar said:
SIN, the great catch all to get people to go to Hell.

Isn't there a part of the New Testament which says that a person is committing a sin if they wear clothing made of two different fabrics? How many devoted followers of Christ would be sent to Hell right now for breaking that one?

SIN and HELL are nothing more than the means of guilt-tripping the population into certain behaviors. And while the Jews are notorious in the popular culture for using guilt as a device to get others to do what they want to have them do, Christians are no less guilty of guilt-tripping their own.

In Leviticus, the rules governing sin are outlined. A few of them have to do with combining things, like fabrics, or crops. Lord only knows what the reasoning was behind these things. Somewhere in the New Testament, Jesus apparently says that some of those old laws are inappropriate (though I cannot quote chapter and verse). But it's your Christian nut cases who pick and choose which sins from Leviticus are appropriate in the modern day and which are not.

Let's not forget however the ridiculousness of some Jewish customs, such as not turning on power switches during the Shabbat. Some appliance manufacturers are actually making sabbath-friendly ovens and refrigerators to stay in keeping with these "laws" ~ and of course, as another marketing ploy.

Sklar said:
I would really like it if Catholics and Christians would CLEAN THEIR OWN HOUSE FIRST before becoming a busy body and tell me how to live my life.

Yeah, like that will ever happen. Many people who subscribe to religion use it as a means to judge others ~ ignoring one of the Ten Commandments as well as Jesus' admonition to "remove the log from your own eye before pointing out the speck in your neighbor's". While that is not the intent of religion, it is the shortcoming of human nature and insecurity. Those who do judge others give their own Bible a black eye.

Sklar said:
I'm sure there are many more examples that can be found.

Yes, tons.

Sklar said:
The true reason (in my humble opionion) that the Religious Right goes after the Gay Community more than anyone else is that if they went after their own members, they would see just how little they would be loved and would lose their money, power and support.

It helps to realize that at the time the Bible was cobbled together, the human lifespan was considerably shorter. It was therefore necessary to guilt trip people into procreating, and homosexuality, which was much more acceptible prior to the mistranslations of the Bible (KJV being one of the more grossly mistranslated versions, and the NIV being the worst of the worst), did not advance the human race. Unfortunately the prejudices that evolved out of these mistranslations have stayed with our culture ~ in fact, they have become stronger as other prejudices against women and people of color have become less socially acceptable. Religion needs members in order to survive, and let's face it... we homos don't contribute to that need. It may be a while before homosexuality finds its power against religion. And if and when it does, the followers of the faith will work to find some other subgroup to collectively assign their hate upon.

As an aside, I have often wondered what Jews wear to ward off vampires (another legend that presupposes we should all be faithful to the cross).
 

BarebackJack

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I just posted my 2 favorite Catholic/Jewish jokes in the Humor category.

And howabout this toast:

If in Heaven we should not meet,
I'll bang on the pipes, you send up the heat