Hell and non Christian people...

[dreamer20]

A little history lesson here: There was dissent among early Christians as to the nature and role of Christ, so the Emperor Constantine (who was not himself a Christian) held a council in which the exact nature of Jesus would be determined. The "son of God" role won out. But this presented a problem in its logic, so another council was held years later that invented the Holy Trinity... basically a "baffle them with bullshit" exercise that still is used today. The "logic" is that the concept of the Holy Trinity explains how Father, Son, and Holy Ghost can each exist as a deity while keeping Christianity as a monotheistic religion as opposed to a polytheistic religion.

Re: the origin of the trinity concept in religions:

From the life cycle of birth, procreation and death the concept of the trinity emerged. Most of the primitive races conceived a triad consisting of three forces or powers in one god. Thus the Hebrew Tribal God Yahweh manifested abilities of creation, preservation and destruction of the life force. Many centuries later these same powers, supposed to be inherent in one god, were interpreted as referring to three seperate individual dieties. As a matter of interest the Hindu Trimurti, comprises Brahma, the Father Creator, Vishnu, the Son and preserver; and Siva, the Holy Spirit and destroyer. The phallus also was a trinity, acting as one impregnating unit , although composed of three seperate and differently- functioned parts.

 

[rob_just_rob]

Since we're having this discussion again...

It recently occurred to me that many (christian and other) religions seem to focus on something they call "faith" as the means to salvation. Believe in god, do what the holy book tells you, and you'll go to paradise. Accept (for example) jesus as a saviour, and you're made, regardless of all the bad stuff you did before. Or words to that effect.

So in essence, these religions are offering rewards to those who don't think critically, and punishing those who do. Human beings are capable of logic and reason. If we use those faculties, we conclude that there is little or no concrete evidence of god, the holy book's rules are dated, contradictory and nonsensical, and the whole saviour concept makes as much sense as the "Get out of Jail Free" card in Monopoly.

Meanwhile, the individual who chooses not to think critically, but blindly and unthinkingly accepts ("has faith in") the tenets of his/her religion, is home free.

On a related note, the nontheist who tries to live his or her life honourably is presumably damned, and the believer who lies, behaves hypocritically, and attacks his/her fellow persons gets to go to paradise just because he/she accepts some mythical "saviour" on his/her deathbed? WTF kind of bullshit is that?

To me, the bottom line is that many western religions appear to be impressing on their adherents the following lessons: Don't think. Do as you're told. Don't question our statements. Any number of bad actions are excusable provided you follow these rules.

Does anyone else see how dangerous these lessons are? How fucked up a person would be if they tried to live by these lessons when, say, buying a car, deciding on where to live, or choosing friends? Or, dare I say it, when voting?

Suddenly the religious right's marriage to the Republican party makes so much more sense.

 

[B_spiker067]

Yeah, I always had a hard time with the dual nature of light. WTF, how can it be BOTH a particle AND a wave. It just makes no fucking sense?

As if duplicity wasn't enough how bout that trinity thats just a little too much, don't you think!?! How can three different things all be one, simply inconceivable?
:tongue:

Also, you're confusing religion failing man with man failing religion. But thats why faith is better.

 

[Gillette]

Also, you're confusing religion failing man with man failing religion.

This is a very important and interesting distinction. The trouble with seeing it clearly is that the religion is written by man and edited in many cases. I don't say "created" by man because I don't wish to address the "God spoke to..." issues.

 

[B_spiker067]

This is a very important and interesting distinction. The trouble with seeing it clearly is that the religion is written by man and edited in many cases. I don't say "created" by man because I don't wish to address the "God spoke to..." issues.

I find no problem with the characterization you just made. I believe God used evolution to create us, that possibly Jesus is a natural result of evolution as planned by God. His 'miracles' are basically irrelevant to me. I essentially concentrate on his message, which, I've said before, is sublime to me. (Please this is no attempt at conversion of anyone. Just my opinions).

I also realize that the Bible was written by men but men who sit in conference bobbing their heads back and forth discussing the laws ad infinitum trying to discern the intent of God through some sort of connection, often characterized as the Holy Spirit within us.

This IS all MY faith based understanding no more.

 

[B_spiker067]

That was a really long post to make singling out "Christians and Catholics" (and by that I assume you mean "Protestants and Catholics") considering that what you are saying could essentially apply to everyone. Every religion, and even non-religious people. Hypocrisy, egocentrism, bigotry, et cetera... not the sole domain of Christians by any stretch of the imagination. I think these things are to some degree a part of human nature. For people of different faiths who take their religion seriously, sometimes these aspects of their nature are reinforced and sometimes they are subdued, depending on the particular doctrine and history of that faith, and the individual person's interpretation of that doctrine and history.

Very well said NIC160.

Also, note the everything the OP states as a SIN I'm not sure they are that. The crop thing. Ask any farmer about how to not exhaust his fields and letting them lie fallow is one item on the agenda. I could pick the OP apart one at a time but it is really something he should have picked up with his Rabbi before anyone else to at least get it straight.

Also, alot of things about faith is to observe certain things so as to pay homage to God. It puts people in a frame of mind much as reading LPSG puts you in a frame of mind.

 

[B_spiker067]

It just occured to me that not everyone has the same faith based life experiences. I am by no means devout nor was my family growing up but we were informed. On another thread that shall remain unnamed there was talking about the story of Job.

I was maybe in third or fourth grade when I read that story in a childrens' version of the the old testament. (I may have read that book cover to cover a score of times. It was filled with the most human, almost Greek tragedy like stories. And like Greek stories full of life lessons.) And like in the other thread were there was a distillation down to "shit happens" I got that in fourth grade. I always thought the story was obvious in its intent.

So though I've never been perplexed by the immense pain suffered, say by the loss of a child, I was always confused by people blaming God.

So isn't there some value in a religion that tells you 'shit happens' among many, many other life lessons?

 

[D_Kay_Sarah_Sarah]

atheist And Happy

 

[B_spiker067]

atheist And Happy

HEY A FAITH BASED BELIEVER LEE_M. NEVER WOULD HAVE GUESSED IT. I'D TAKE YOU FOR A REASONING EMPIRICALLY CORRECT AGNOSTIC. OH WELL.

 

[B_Hickboy]

rally roud da fambly
wit a pocket fulla shall.

 

[B_spiker067]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica] [/FONT]

rally roud da fambly
wit a pocket fulla shall.

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica] Rage Against the Machine[/FONT]

 

[B_spiker067]

rally [a]rou[n]d [the] famly
wit[h] a pocket [full of shells]l.

Actually, it never hurts to ask a moderator.

What does this mean Hickboy? I know it means something. You are usually cryptic but mean something. What does this mean?

 

[madame_zora]

Since we're having this discussion again...

It recently occurred to me that many (christian and other) religions seem to focus on something they call "faith" as the means to salvation. Believe in god, do what the holy book tells you, and you'll go to paradise. Accept (for example) jesus as a saviour, and you're made, regardless of all the bad stuff you did before. Or words to that effect.

So in essence, these religions are offering rewards to those who don't think critically, and punishing those who do. Human beings are capable of logic and reason. If we use those faculties, we conclude that there is little or no concrete evidence of god, the holy book's rules are dated, contradictory and nonsensical, and the whole saviour concept makes as much sense as the "Get out of Jail Free" card in Monopoly.

Meanwhile, the individual who chooses not to think critically, but blindly and unthinkingly accepts ("has faith in") the tenets of his/her religion, is home free.

On a related note, the nontheist who tries to live his or her life honourably is presumably damned, and the believer who lies, behaves hypocritically, and attacks his/her fellow persons gets to go to paradise just because he/she accepts some mythical "saviour" on his/her deathbed? WTF kind of bullshit is that?

To me, the bottom line is that many western religions appear to be impressing on their adherents the following lessons: Don't think. Do as you're told. Don't question our statements. Any number of bad actions are excusable provided you follow these rules.

Does anyone else see how dangerous these lessons are? How fucked up a person would be if they tried to live by these lessons when, say, buying a car, deciding on where to live, or choosing friends? Or, dare I say it, when voting?

Suddenly the religious right's marriage to the Republican party makes so much more sense.

Or unsuddenly, as it were.

History is rife with examples of governments using religions to rally their people's religious fervor for political ends. Lest we not forget, the whole concept of religions and governments being separate entities is relatively new.

On Jewish law, and this is coming from a non-Jew, to the best of my understanding: much of the rules laid out in the Torah were for self-preservation. They were asserted in the form of "laws" to prmote adherance, but the laws against eating certain foods (like pork and shellfish) were more about the lack of refrigeration than EVIL incarnate. There are also tons of references in the OT about molds, mildews and fungi, and cleaning your house (literally). This was to give people the best chance possible of surviving a life with very few luxuries.

Also, a child born into the Jewish faith is not seen as having a "soul" or personhood until it survives to the thirtieth day. The custom of Shiva is not observed for an infant that dies before its first month. This was probably more an observance of the high infant mortality rate at the time than to suggest it was less of a person, but there it is. Most Jewish laws were personified stories that were passed down through oral traditions, but their reasons were usually very pragmatic.

Yes, Jesus was a Jewish reformer, and very Jewish, as JA points out. He was upset about the direction he saw his religion taking and decided to speak out about it, as was a man in his position apt to do. Had he NOT been a rabbi, he would not have been allowed to speak at Temple. Although we have no writings directly attributed to Him, the references TO his have people addressing him as "Rabbi". He says he came to fulfill the law, perhaps because he wanted to avoid the complete upheaval that replacing the law would cause. Or better yet, maybe he believe what he said, IF he said it at all. I have serious doubts that much of his actual language survived the three-hundred-plus years of obscurity before the Council of Nicaea convened in 325ad.

Pick an historical forgure from the year 1682, and tell me everything you can on that person. Pick someone easy, someone on whom there is an adequate amount of writing. What are the chances that you'll get and accurate and clear biography of the person? Now, how does that change if you pick someone who is already highly controversial, and the outcome of YOUR paper will have a meaningful and lasting effect on YOUR society as a whole? Is there any chance at all that you could write that paper with no political influence at all? NOW, imagine that your government IS your religion. Did your head just explode? Mine did. NOW, imagine that ALL the stories you can find on this guy were written in parable form, to illustrate stories that your people were accustomed to reading as "moral truths" to the specific people to whom they were written, but YOU are not a Jew, and don't understand this. You're trying to read literally what was written as a parable. What are the chances that you'll get ANYTHING right? Very slim.

Faggots, fear not! Although it is written in many modern day Bibles that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God, this is just another of the many mistranslations the Bible carries. The word "homosexual" is only a couple hundred years old, and couldn't possibly been used two thousand years ago! It is more likely that the specific objection Jesus had to the "sexually immoral" pertained to a then common practise in some Temples of having people who were basically prostitutes dress up during worship as one of the various fertility gods, and congregation members could pay them to have sex with them during the service. Yeah, Jesus was pissed. Since we have no word in our language for temple hookers, homosexual was inserted as the scourge of OUR day. Jesus wasn't mad at you, your fellow Christians are!

JA looks at what could be, so he remains hopeful. I look at what is and I feel filthy.

 

[dreamer20]

Oh Sklar! Someone has revived the devil I see::wink:


http://www.lpsg.org/1079227-post1.html

 

[krazioso13]

Am I the only one who finds the hypocrisy (sp) of the religious right to be alarming and bigoted? Actually, I know I'm not. I just needed a sentence to start this with.

Being Jewish, I am constantly amazed at how blind some members of the Catholic and Christian religions can be. For example:

First off, I don't see how Catholics and Christians seem to think that their religion is lock step besides the Jewish religion. Aside from the Jews for Jesus, most Jewish people know that Jesus was a man who was also a Rabbi. Catholics and Christians think he is the Son of God. There's a big difference in that.

Second, Jewish people believe in God as the Supreme Ruler of the Universe. Catholics and Christians seem to think that Jesus IS God. I won't even go into the Holy Trinity because, frankly, I don't understand how the Father can be the Son can be the Holy Ghost.

Third, being Jewish, we have no concept of Hell. All Jews go to the Holy Land. I was going to say Heaven but Holy Land seems to fit better. So when a Catholic or Christian tells me I'm going to Hell, I just tell them I have a free pass out of it because I'm Jewish, not Catholic or Christian. This seems to enrage them even more because they DON'T SEEM TO GRASP THAT THERE ARE OTHER RELIGIONS OUT THERE THAT PREDATE THEIR OWN. This seems to be a point that they don't understand. They IMPOSE their beliefs onto others and are shocked when others don't come around to their view point, which makes them heathens/sinners and they try to condem us to Hell, starting this all over again.

The whole War on Christianity slogan we've been hearing here in America the past couple of years seems to have shocked the Right. What they don't seem to get is that they declared war on everyone else first. We're just defending ourselves.

I will be the first to admit, I have never read the New Testament and my memory of the Old testament is sketchy at best. So hopefully, those of you who are more familiar with it can help to fill me in on some of the examples I am going to explore below or just correct me if I am plain wrong (correct me gently please):

SIN, the great catch all to get people to go to Hell.

Isn't there a part of the New Testament which says that a person is committing a sin if they wear clothing made of two different fabrics? How many devoted followers of Christ would be sent to Hell right now for breaking that one?

Isn't there a part of the New Testament that states something along the lines that a farmer shouldn't plant more than two crops in the same field in the same year? How many farmers are going to Hell for that? What about the people who bought the produce from that farmer and ate it? All going to Hell.

Isn't there a part of the New Testament that states that Suicide is a sin? How many people who follow Christ smoke? Isn't it pretty much common knowledge (although people still don't quite grasp it) that smoking is going to kill you. It's a slow form of suicide. Why aren't the Catholics and Christians turning around on their own flock and trying to save them from going to Hell? Should we touch on Drunk Driving next? I think my point has been made.

I would really like it if Catholics and Christians would CLEAN THEIR OWN HOUSE FIRST before becoming a busy body and tell me how to live my life.

I'm sure there are many more examples that can be found.

The true reason (in my humble opionion) that the Religious Right goes after the Gay Community more than anyone else is that if they went after their own members, they would see just how little they would be loved and would lose their money, power and support.

Or am I just totally wrong in starting this thread and line of thought?


Thanks all,


Sklar

As a Christian that Believes in God and tries to strive/follow him as He said to do, that's one thing I can attest to and it hurts. I do argue with my fellow catholics and roman catholics above them all.

The problem is, if we follow God, in our hearts and minds, we know some actions can push us more towards Hell. And if my fellow believers took a minute to read and understand more so, they would know Hell isn't a lake of fire or flames and such things. It's the true absence of the most Holy and High of God. None of his love, light, purity, kindness, compassion, etc. His magnificence is missing permanently(to our belief).

Second, although we have a thought/feeling when we see something that could make someone hellbound, in reality, we're supposed to accept and understand that Only the creator himself can truly judge that action at the end of times. Hence, why he teaches us to be compassionate with one another. Judgment alone is his at the end. Yet my fellow christians dont accept their flaws and mistakes..they want to take it out on others.

Meaning, we can't condemn someone no matter how much it bothers us and such. And looking at my "righteous" brothes and sisters, it hurts knowing they are making hellbound decisions with their whole being, when they can be using it to be kind and helpful.

Also, the last tidbit I will say as I got to make a delicious apple crisp before I head to work is, who goes to hell and what sin is. My fellow believers forget that we have a passage, that if we truly believe with our whole being that something isn't a sin, it's not. And they forget what sin truly is.

There's some that are shared by all humans, and then others that are specific to our soul. Meaning, sin is something that pulls you away from God himself. That gives you shame, loathing, apathy, darkness, etc. When it changes your alma and being, pulling you away, thats the sin you gotta work on to get closer to God. I don't believe my homosexuality is a sin, as it's a part of me, and draws me more near to God himself, and He has given me so much peace and mercy over time.

And His Blessed Holiness continues to do so. That high ego, pride and self righteous is a massive sin once mixed in with words/actions, as it means you're trying to override Him and claim yours as most high. Hence why condemning is a sin itself.

The only other thing I can say to my fellow bisexual and gay people is, love that part of yourself, honestly. I know society and stigma makes it harder beyond belief. Just know He's waiting for you to come back to Him too. The amount of Love and peace he's given me, I will always be grateful for and appreciate till the end of times, and continue to seek and beg for it. Yes, I'm gay and believe in Him and I don't let go.

He will love you too. Just never let go.

 

[englad]

This thread is 15 years old! This thread predates the global financial crisis and all the crazy shit that has happened since.

PS - atheism is a true blessing for LGBTs, I can highly recommend it.

 

[halcyondays]

Hell is being locked forever in a room with your friends.

Jean Paul Sartre

 

[HorseHung40's]

My idea of hell would be an eternity spent with these "good Christians".

Give me liberated people any day, wherever they may be!