"Heterophobic" Trend Amongst [Young] Gay Men

[DiscoBoy]

Through my interactions with gay men (particularly young ones) both on/offline, I have come to notice a trend of internalized heterophobia (think internalized homophobia, but in the reverse, obviously). Basically, a number of [young] gay men that I’ve spoken to have expressed a feeling of disgust at the idea of being with women. Fair enough, everyone’s entitled to feel the way they do, but disgust is such a strong feeling, and as is generally the case amongst homophobic people, I believe it to be an indicator of something more.

I think that because of the initial struggle a gay individual must inevitably face to come to terms with their sexuality, they come to believe that whatever they first discover is pretty much set in stone (i.e. “I am gay, and that’s all there is to it”). In part, I believe that this is due to the fact that they don’t want to have to again question and subsequently struggle with their sexuality. Nobody wants to have to experience that first episode more than once. This creates a false sense of security that is constantly challenged by thoughts or feelings that may arise, and results in resentful feelings towards those that threaten that sense of security. Or simply put, sexually close-minded gay individuals harbour negative feelings toward women which manifest as ‘disgust’.

For example, when I was first coming into my own as a gay person, I stressed to any and everybody that I would never sleep with a woman. I was constantly reinforcing the reality that I was exclusively gay. Today, I have yet to sleep with a woman, but I do readily accept it as a possibility in the future if for whatever reason I develop that desire. Additionally, when men I was interested in would tell me they had had past experiences with women, it would really intimidate me. My sexuality + women = insecurity.

Anyway, just wanted to share those thoughts and see what the people of LPSG had to say. Please feel to share opinions, ideas and stories.

And just for the sake of saying it, this all obviously my own opinion and I don’t in any way claim it as fact. The whole point of starting this thread is to see what we can figure out.

I've added a poll; answer accordingly.

 

[Buckstar]

I feel very fortunate that when I was in undergrad school I hooked up with woman. Before that I dated women (girls really, in high school) while in the closet. When my high school girl and I decided to be mature and have sex, I lost my erection when I entered her. It wasn't until I discovered the art department in college and met an exceptional woman who didn't care what my sexuality was, but simply wanted some, that I could perform w a woman. We had simultaneous orgasms from that point on. For her it was her best sex—I could go on and on and I'm well endowed. For me it was great, but not my preference. Both of us could have sex with other men. Sometimes we brought another man home! One particularly great night we brought home this new freshman dancer. So beautiful. After a long night of exploration and orgasms, he informed us he was a virgin before this night!
However, when I slept with another mutual friend of ours, a female dancer, I came home to tell my gf all about it, like we did when we slept with other men. This time she freaked. Cried and cried. Said she wanted to be my only woman. But she was smart enough not to ask me to promise not to sleep w other women, but to promise I wouldn't share the news with her. I had to keep secret after that a two year affair which I had with a str8 couple we both knew.
Bottom line though: I feel so much more sexually rounded having had sex w women. I too find it annoying to hear this knee-jerk "ick" response from gay men when it comes to sex with women.
I prefer open people, willing to experiment. That's why I like this site. I have rarely seen a place where str8 men can be so open about loving dick, str8 and gay alike. Having slept with many str8 men in my life, I find it especially hot too.

 

[willow78]

I have absolutely no sexual desire for women but the thought of it does not disgust me. I don't scream and faint at the sight of 'flaps'. I watch and enjoy a lot of straight porn but I never fantasize about being the man/men.

Unfortunately I fucked up my vote and picked that it does disgust me - d'oh!

 

[B_Hung Jon]

I feel very fortunate that when I was in undergrad school I hooked up with woman. Before that I dated women (girls really, in high school) while in the closet. When my high school girl and I decided to be mature and have sex, I lost my erection when I entered her. It wasn't until I discovered the art department in college and met an exceptional woman who didn't care what my sexuality was, but simply wanted some, that I could perform w a woman. We had simultaneous orgasms from that point on. For her it was her best sex—I could go on and on and I'm well endowed. For me it was great, but not my preference. Both of us could have sex with other men. Sometimes we brought another man home! One particularly great night we brought home this new freshman dancer. So beautiful. After a long night of exploration and orgasms, he informed us he was a virgin before this night!
However, when I slept with another mutual friend of ours, a female dancer, I came home to tell my gf all about it, like we did when we slept with other men. This time she freaked. Cried and cried. Said she wanted to be my only woman. But she was smart enough not to ask me to promise not to sleep w other women, but to promise I wouldn't share the news with her. I had to keep secret after that a two year affair which I had with a str8 couple we both knew.
Bottom line though: I feel so much more sexually rounded having had sex w women. I too find it annoying to hear this knee-jerk "ick" response from gay men when it comes to sex with women.
I prefer open people, willing to experiment. That's why I like this site. I have rarely seen a place where str8 men can be so open about loving dick, str8 and gay alike. Having slept with many str8 men in my life, I find it especially hot too.

I have had similar experiences as Buckstar but most of my sexual/emotional experiences have been with women. The experiences I've had with guys have been close friends who don't necessarily define themselves as gay or even bi. I do think that among artistic people there's more fluidity about sexuality and emotional attraction.

As far as the OP's thesis, young gay guys I know feel that even though they may be more liberated in the culture, they still feel oppressed because the norm of heterosexuality is shoved down their throats so much. I even notice it myself. Maybe their "disgust" with women is more a reaction to normative behaviors. I also feel that the gay guys I know are artistic and rebellious so maybe that plays into it. On the other hand in my circle of friends, the women really prefer the gay guys in terms of friendship. They form these very tight relationships that straight or even bi guys don't seem to be able to. I think many of us long for a more perfect world in which we can all be open about sexuality, but there still are a lot of impediments to that. So I don't really blame young gay people for reacting to heterosexual society, especially in advertising.

 

[B_jeepguy2]

I have slept with women before so the thought of being with a woman does not disgust me at all. What I am completely disgusted by is the body shape of most American women these days. Most women today by the time they hit 25 usually have too much junk in the trunk and too many rolls of fat for my tastes.

 

[maxcok]

I don't know how much my experience relates to being young and gay today. Society has changed so much, particularly in terms of wider acceptance and media presence, but I can give you my perspective looking back as an 'older' man. :wink:

I think lots of young guys get caught up in the excitement and novelty of entering gay culture for the first time. It can be liberating to finally be themselves and to be surrounded by other gay and gay accepting people. For some it's easy to bow to peer pressure, go overboard, and become "uber gay". This may be in part a reaction to the wider straight society where they've felt judged, repressed and condemned. It may even be overcompensation and rejection of the straight norm. It does seem to me as a detached observer that there may be more freedom for young people today to explore their sexual identities and experiment with variations on traditional male/female roles without the concerns most had in earlier generations. Being a confident free spirit, many of those concerns were relatively inconsequential for me compared to what others went through.

I've known both older and younger gay men who are disgusted by the idea of sex with women, and some who are derisive of women in general, though it's usually more catty than serious I think. This is only my experience though, and by no means indicative of what's typical. One thing in my experience that's different from what I've often heard expressed on this board: During significant periods in my life when I was involved with both men and women, I mostly did not experience the sort of ostracization that many describe, from straight or gay people. But then, I tend to attract and surround myself with generally openminded people - gay, straight or otherwise - for whom sexual orientation is no big fucking deal.

 

[DiscoBoy]

As far as the OP's thesis, young gay guys I know feel that even though they may be more liberated in the culture, they still feel oppressed because the norm of heterosexuality is shoved down their throats so much. I even notice it myself. Maybe their "disgust" with women is more a reaction to normative behaviors. I also feel that the gay guys I know are artistic and rebellious so maybe that plays into it. On the other hand in my circle of friends, the women really prefer the gay guys in terms of friendship. They form these very tight relationships that straight or even bi guys don't seem to be able to. I think many of us long for a more perfect world in which we can all be open about sexuality, but there still are a lot of impediments to that. So I don't really blame young gay people for reacting to heterosexual society, especially in advertising.

Yes, but doesn't that only work toward perpetuating social stigma when it comes to sexuality? If young, gay people choose to combat normative behaviours with ignorant attitudes, how can they ever expect to be fully liberated? Expressing disgust in women is offensive to both women and those who are attracted to women. It's no worse than when someone calls my attraction to men disgusting.

So yeah, I do fault young gay people for their attitude.

 

[DiscoBoy]

I've known both older and younger gay men who are disgusted by the idea of sex with women, and some who are derisive of women in general, though it's usually more catty than serious I think. This is only my experience though, and by no means indicative of what's typical.

But that's exactly it, Max. If expressing disgust is only for the sake of being catty, is that not discrimination?

During significant periods in my life when I was involved with both men and women, I mostly did not experience the sort of ostracization that many describe, from straight or gay people. But then, I tend to attract and surround myself with generally openminded people - gay, straight or otherwise - for whom sexual orientation is no big fucking deal.

My best friend, a bisexual female, has had to deal with a lot of flack from both lesbians and straight men. Nobody is comfortable with the fact that she swings both ways, and I think that's unjust.

 

[B_Hung Jon]

But that's exactly it, Max. If expressing disgust is only for the sake of being catty, is that not discrimination?

My best friend, a bisexual female, has had to deal with a lot of flack from both lesbians and straight men. Nobody is comfortable with the fact that she swings both ways, and I think that's unjust.

DiscoBoy, I deal with shit from people I don't know (gay guys, women) about being bi all the time. So many people think it's just a "period" I'm going through, but the reality is I've always been this way and I'm now 26. It is unjust but somewhat understandable. I don't find women or men's bodies to be disgusting. I think they're both attractive and interesting in their own ways.

 

[spiritsong72]

I will come out of the closet and say for the life of me, outside of boobs and ass I don't understand a woman's genitalia. I've looked at it from all angles and tried to wrap my head around what is it about a vagina straight men find so appealing. (I'm gonna try and find out before I die though. It's on my bucket list.) Do I find it "disgusting"? Not at all. But at the same time I know gay guys that do.

Sometimes it's easier - especially if you're a young person just coming out of the closet - just to go with the flow of the gay people you've surrounded yourself with. Coming out of the closet is a lot like the first day of high school and being the new kid. It's so much easier once you find a group of people that accept you and welcome you in to go with the flow of conversation than allow yourself your individuality. I'll be willing to bet most of those same young gay people that find straight sex so "disgusting" nowadays will mature into much more tolerant people. I can't speak for all gay folk but I can say from experience that I've grown out of the "groupthink" that oftentimes is part and parcel of being a young person in general, regardless of sexual orientation.

Now if that "groupthink" turns into outright hostility, then maybe it's time for gay young people to rethink their value system. Because it's just a short bus ride from hostility to acting out. Now if hostility on the verge of acting out is what you're seeing time and again, then maybe it's time for those young gay folk to get some sort of education on tolerance.

Just my two cents. :biggrin1:

 

[maxcok]

But that's exactly it, Max. If expressing disgust is only for the sake of being catty, is that not discrimination?

Maybe in the purest sense, but I think it also depends on context, on intent, on the audience.

I think you know what I mean. ;-)

My best friend, a bisexual female, has had to deal with a lot of flack from both lesbians and straight men. Nobody is comfortable with the fact that she swings both ways, and I think that's unjust.

Again, I can only speak from my own experience, and I rarely encountered that attitude from the people important to me. Not that everyone always understood, but nobody that mattered ever gave me shit about it. If it were I and I experienced that, I wouldn't consider those people friends, and I would find new ones who were more tolerant. At least she's got you for a best friend, and she couldn't do better than that. :smile:

p.s. I thought bi females were the ultimate hetero male fantasy.

 

[haulthat]

It doesn't excite me AT ALL, but it doesn't disgust me cause women are beautiful their just not fucktastic FOR ME!

 

[Poivre89]

People seem to think that growing up gay in the 2000s must have been a walk in the park with your eyes glued to Will and Grace, but it wasn't like that, at least it wasn't where I grew up. There was a weird limbo of knowing it was there but not knowing what it really was. Thinking, for awhile, that it was extrinsic, that you had to look and act a certain way and that was what made you gay. Homosexuality is a hot button issue and if one happens to be from a religious/conservative area he is probably getting mixed signals. Actually in my experience they weren't mixed, the news did not say gay was good or bad, nothing really ever said gay was good or bad except a few random shows like Will and Grace and Roseanne. But it was there, it was very there and very much amongst us about once a month on the news or on tv. We got internet when I was 14 and trolling this board is one of the things led me to understand my own sexuality better and to become more accepting of myself and the bodies and sexual desires of others.
But in the midst of it all, you are trying to be "manly" trying to not get beat-up by gargantuan farm boys or scrappy red necks, so you are trying to act tough, and part of trying to seem tough is being outspoken and aware of who you are as a person. Sometimes in the midst of the chaos of high school and even before then when the "That's so gay", "Cocksucker" and rumors about other students (having AIDS) start to fly, you want to hurt them the way they hurt you. You become an "us" and a "them" because gay is there, it's very there and very amongst all of students, it's just invisible while loudly spoken.
I did use the word "gross" and "disgusted" but it was after a specific experience. At the time I was quite the pudgy teen (it was coming out that caused me to slim down), and a beautiful girl invited me to her house when I was 15. I met her family and they lived in a maze of a house and we found some room alone, one thing led to another and before I knew it I was on my knees eating her out. She enjoyed it. I sat nervous and sweating, slowly and then rapidly licking around her vagina trying to suppress a gag reflex that came from simply not being physically attracted to her and cleaning her out like an ice cream cone anyway, but after that experience, I did feel like I was must be "disgusted" by vagina.
It isn't true that I am disgusted by vagina, I am just not wearing the team support t-shirt for them either. They are not my cup of tea but I know that it felt very real and very logical to be "grossed out" at the time and that I couldn't share my experience with anyone, even after coming out I only had to say that I knew it was gross.

I don't feel that way now, but women still don't turn me on.

Also it my opinion that you are only further making it seem wrong to be gay by saying that is wrong to be disgusted by the thought of having sex with a woman. I am sorry, you are making it wrong to say you don't want to have sex with a woman and making the claim that we can't help but be attracted to women in some way because we are men or some other crazy chauvinistic claim.

 

[Industrialsize]

I don't see how the lack of any desire to sleep with a woman equals "heterophobia".

 

[D_Martin van Burden]

I don't see how the lack of any desire to sleep with a woman equals "heterophobia".

Agreed. I guess I lost it as I read through the thread, but I thought a fair share of sexuality-phobia has more to do with what happens outside the bedroom. I'm talking about who one chooses to befriend, how negative stereotypes color preconceived notions, choices in social interaction, etc.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Also it my opinion that you are only further making it seem wrong to be gay by saying that is wrong to be disgusted by the thought of having sex with a woman. I am sorry, you are making it wrong to say you don't want to have sex with a woman and making the claim that we can't help but be attracted to women in some way because we are men or some other crazy chauvinistic claim.

Rubbish. Why would Discoboy who is proudly Gay do what you're suggesting?


No actually he's just raised an interesting discussion about a common phenomenon among young people, or all sexualities. That is the strong and sometimes extreme antipathy many young people feel towards normative cultures in which they may have grown up.


That in some young Gay men's cases this should manifest itself as a disgust of the idea of sex with women is only a natural part of a process they are going through of learning to accept themselves and their own sexuality. It's not the prettiest of phases of personal development by any means but it is fairly natural to react strongly to the things which may have been forced upon you by social mores and norms if those norms and mores simply could not apply you and only made you feel alienated and abnormal.

You see this process at work in all areas of life, young people frequently take violent or extreme dislikes or antipathies to the prevailing cultural or social norms they are exposed to. The desire to create or discover cultural or social norms of which suit an individual better than those on offer, which are a better fit than those imposed on the individual by others is a fairly strong human impulse, almost as strong as the urge to seek out others who share similar values to oneself in order to create a more personally acceptable peer group.


I think with time most people develop out of this extreme phase of opposition and develop a more relaxed attitude towards the things they so strongly opposed in their youth. I think most young Gay men who express disgust of sex with women grow into older Gay men who while continuing to have no desire to have sex with women accept other people's sexuality without disgust and can see beyond the extreme oppositional view they once had by being able to put themselves in someone else's shoes.

I think one of the benefits of age and experience is a growing ability to view life more dispassionately and more rationally.

 

[Buckstar]

Thanks Hung Jon for your response to my earlier post. (ps your pics are amazing!)

Let's face it, misogyny AND homophobia is still rampant. I'm a New Yorker so live in a bubble, but I'm from the deep south, so I know what really is going on, still, in spite of all the progress.
With regard to young gays finding vagina disgusting, well, as proved by these posts, it simply doesn't go for all gays. It is a stereotype in the ghetto-ized gay world, and yes stereotypes are true. But its not much different from the many str8 women and str8 men alike who find anal sex between men disgusting. Or any sex between men disgusting.
There is always going to be someone who finds something disgusting. There are lots of str8 women out there who still believe sucking cock is disgusting. Sad saps that they are.
Anyway, I'll say it again. What's great about this site is the amount of open minded people on it. It would make a good model for the rest of the world when it comes to sexual issues.

 

[Bbucko]

You see this process at work in all areas of life, young people frequently take violent or extreme dislikes or antipathies to the prevailing cultural or social norms they are exposed to. The desire to create or discover cultural or social norms of which suit an individual better than those on offer, which are a better fit than those imposed on the individual by others is a fairly strong human impulse, almost as strong as the urge to seek out others who share similar values to oneself in order to create a more personally acceptable peer group.

This was a vitally important step toward integrating my sexuality into my personality as a whole, and hasn't really diminished much as I've gotten older. I still see life as a continuous opportunity to invent and explore, and I continue to see myself as living "off the map".

Having said that, I was wildly curious about female sexuality as a young man. Though I came out to friends as a virgin at 16 (and to everyone else, post-virgin at 17), this curiosity never abated, and I explored sex with two different women in my early 20s. It was interesting but not gratifying and chose to limit my opportunities thereafter. At no time, however, was I ever disgusted by women or their genitalia, though I recognize that the disgust is ubiquitous among gay men of all ages and experience levels.

I need to disagree with the OP that there's anything trendy in this trend: misogyny and homosexuality have been intertwined amongst all-too many guys at least since the 1970s, when I first really appeared on the scene. there's nothing new to any of this.

In fact, in 1998 I worked briefly for a furniture artisan/craftsman in eastern-central Massachusetts as his sales and design chief, in what was undoubtedly the straightest environment of my professional career in the furniture industry. I was met with reactions from his staff ranging from respect and admiration to apprehension to a sniggering, condescending scorn, and as the woodworker/owner gave me more and more supervisory tasks, these tensions only increased. Oddest was his parsing of a stray joke (and it was entirely in jest) that I shared with the guys in the shop which he seized upon as evidence of some latent misogyny in me and chastised me in front of the entire crew.

As this joke would have passed completely without comment had it been said by anyone of the straight crew members, the accusation stung so much the more, especially coming from someone who knew me well enough and respected me enough to recruit me away from a much more secure job with promises of complete creative and artistic freedom. In the end, I busied myself looking for yet another job and finally relocated out of state in a matter of weeks.

The thing that hit me hardest wasn't even the public admonishment; it's that he coined his phrasing in ways that stereotyped me as a "woman hating gay guy", which I never have been. Evidently something in that (now long-forgotten) joke triggered some underlying prejudice he had/has against gay men which he projected onto me without merit and despite a great rapport we had had previously.

I think one of the benefits of age and experience is a growing ability to view life more dispassionately and more rationally.

Yes, but slowly...slowly...

 

[lazarwulf1979]

Hi,

As a hetro male I have to say I've noticed this trend also of "hetrophobia". I'm gonna get bashed as a troll or whatever but I wanted to pipe up.

I recently noticed it more in the last season of United States of Tara and a bit on Skins. The younger community has adapted terms they use in a derogatory fashion when talking about hetro sexual, the term "breeders" is the first and foremost to pop into my mind.

 

[NEWREBA]

Thanks Hung Jon for your response to my earlier post. (ps your pics are amazing!)

Let's face it, misogyny AND homophobia is still rampant. I'm a New Yorker so live in a bubble, but I'm from the deep south, so I know what really is going on, still, in spite of all the progress.
With regard to young gays finding vagina disgusting, well, as proved by these posts, it simply doesn't go for all gays. It is a stereotype in the ghetto-ized gay world, and yes stereotypes are true. But its not much different from the many str8 women and str8 men alike who find anal sex between men disgusting. Or any sex between men disgusting.
There is always going to be someone who finds something disgusting. There are lots of str8 women out there who still believe sucking cock is disgusting. Sad saps that they are.
Anyway, I'll say it again. What's great about this site is the amount of open minded people on it. It would make a good model for the rest of the world when it comes to sexual issues.

I'm not completely straight and I certainly don't think that "sucking cock" is disgusting in terms of over-all sexual expression. BUT I do have a hard time with some men talking about it in the same way they would "eating pussy". Lately I've gotten myself into some trouble with my opinions about this. I just have a hard time thinking about human beings as things or objects, whether young gay men feel that way or anyone.