Historic Day for Healthcare (??) -- the House Votes Tonight

[deleted213967]

I just got some e-mail from NARAL Pro-Choice: they rightfully feel betrayed by that ignorant bigot Stupak (a "Democrat" somehow) for polluting the bill with medieval anti-abortion provisions.

So this is all we get with a charismatic Democratic president and a deep blue Congress?

By the time all those timid changes are scheduled to take effect (2013), they may have been reversed by the next Congress...not to mention the possibility that some states may opt out of the public option altogether.

 

[jason_els]

Very clear explanation, Jason. Thank you! So are there more Democratic Senators in the Senate than Republican Senators? Is that why the bill is likely to pass, you say?

You're most welcome!

In essence, yes. The Democrats have what we call, a "supermajority." They have more than the necessary 51 votes to pass a bill in the Senate. In the Senate, a bill can be delayed by what is called filibuster. A filibuster is when a Senate member gets the floor and won't yield it to anyone who won't then give it back to the member. It used to be a filibustering Senator had to talk continually (sometimes reading a book out loud or just babbling) but not any longer. A filibuster can only be stopped when 2/3 of the Senate votes to end the filibuster and since there are 100 Senators, 2/3 = 60. The Democrats have exactly 58 seats in the Senate (plus two independent senators who caucus with the Democrats) and so can override filibusters that the Republicans might use to delay the bill.

Democrats are in control of both the Senate and the House and the White House, but not all Democrats were ready to vote for Health Care Reform. Some House Democrats are more conservative than others (they are called Blue Dogs) and they have been the real problem with getting the bill passed in the House.

 

[B_Nick8]

No. Not everyone knows how the process works and there are many non-Americans here who I wouldn't expect to know.

That's hardly whom you were speaking to, but good save.

my insurance premiums better not cost more!!!!! I may just drop my insurance to save money id they do.

Oh, I doubt you'll do that by choice, not if you research the alternatives. And I'm speaking as someone who considered it for a minute and a half--just before, oddly enough, my insurance company dropped me.

 

[monet]

Well no, I assumed you might not be because this subject is covered as part of sixth grade civics classes. Anyway that's why I included the link to the ever popular Schoolhouse Rock piece addressing this subject.

What a condescending guy you are. Seems almost pointless to go back and forth with you. Speaking of which (without Google to save your ass), do you know who wrote the words to the National Anthem? Or who said "Give me liberty, or give me death."? Or what are the names of the three ships Columbus sailed when he "discovered" America? I learned all this in 4th grade!

If you know them (honestly), maybe you should be a historian. Otherwise, try not being such a prick. You'll make more friends that way.

 

[B_Nick8]

Speaking of which (without Google to save your ass), do you know who wrote the words to the National Anthem? Or who said "Give me liberty, or give me death."? Or what are the names of the three ships Columbus sailed when he "discovered" America? I learned all this in 4th grade!

If you know them (honestly), maybe you should be a historian.

I know you weren't talking to me, but I can't resist Jeopardy. I want to say, Who is Francis Scott Key?, Who is Patrick Henry?, and What are the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria?

Now I'll have to go to google to see if I've embarrassed myself.

Edit: I think I'm three for three which means I can risk appearing on Fox's new show Are You Smarter Than a Fourth Grader. :biggrin1:

 

[vince]

You're most welcome!

In essence, yes. The Democrats have what we call, a "supermajority." They have more than the necessary 51 votes to pass a bill in the Senate. In the Senate, a bill can be delayed by what is called filibuster. A filibuster is when a Senate member gets the floor and won't yield it to anyone who won't then give it back to the member. It used to be a filibustering Senator had to talk continually (sometimes reading a book out loud or just babbling) but not any longer. A filibuster can only be stopped when 2/3 of the Senate votes to end the filibuster and since there are 100 Senators, 2/3 = 60. The Democrats have exactly 58 seats in the Senate (plus two independent senators who caucus with the Democrats) and so can override filibusters that the Republicans might use to delay the bill.

Your math sent me scurrying to the closest Wiki. If we are going to be "pedantic", it takes a 3/5ths majority of the Senators to invoke cloture and end a filibuster. 3/5 of 100=60.

The rules were changed in 1975 by the Democratic controlled Senate. Formerly, it had been a two-thirds majority vote, but after the anti-civil rights filibusters of the fifties and sixties, it was decided to change the rules.

 

[vince]

Jason- Did you know that current rules in the Senate do not require the opposition to hold the floor and speak continuously against a bill?

"Today, they just advise the majority leader that the fillibuster is on. All debate on the bill is stopped until either cloture is voted by three-fifths (now 60 votes) of the Senate. The senators who fillibuster get a free ride compared to the old days." Filibuster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Can't imagine the old Strom Thurmond agreeing with that.

 

[jason_els]

Your math sent me scurrying to the closest Wiki. If we are going to be "pedantic", it takes a 3/5ths majority of the Senators to invoke cloture and end a filibuster. 3/5 of 100=60.

The rules were changed in 1975 by the Democratic controlled Senate. Formerly, it had been a two-thirds majority vote, but after the anti-civil rights filibusters of the fifties and sixties, it was decided to change the rules.

Hmmm... I'm horrible at math but point taken. Clearly I'm behind the times by a mere three decades. Can I sue my elementary school for not informing me of the change?

Jason- Did you know that current rules in the Senate do not require the opposition to hold the floor and speak continuously against a bill?

"Today, they just advise the majority leader that the fillibuster is on. All debate on the bill is stopped until either cloture is voted by three-fifths (now 60 votes) of the Senate. The senators who fillibuster get a free ride compared to the old days." Filibuster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Can't imagine the old Strom Thurmond agreeing with that.

Yes I did and if you read my post again you'll see that I referred to that very situation (..."but no longer.") I think it's a cop out too and defeats the whole purpose of filibuster. Once in a while these guys should actually have to work.

 

[SR_Blarney_Frank]

- 2% of america will be eligible for the public option by 2019
- The public option's premiums will be higher than private insurance premiums
- Everybody else forced to buy private insurance, else risk 2.5% of income garnished per year
- There are no controls on premiums. None. At all. Everybody is being forced to buy private insurance, and there exists not one word in the bill to ensure they will actually lower prices once everybody has bought in.

Not really.

Because premiums are not tied to Medicare rates does not then mean it "will be higher." In fact, there are a lot of reasons the public option premiums are likely to be lower.

And yes, there are effectively controls on premiums in the form of subsidies dependent on your income. There are also caps on maximum out-of-pocket costs and deductibles along with requirements that those with pre-existing conditions cannot have their premiums increased based on those conditions.

It's hard enough understanding the enormity of this bill without people on both sides of the debate throwing FUD around.

 

[Golfbuddy]

This is a sad, tragic day for America. This bill, should it become law, will destroy the greatest healthcare system in the world. It got that way because smart, hardworking people were able to profit from their abilities. And why shouldn't they? Now that the government is involved, it will be ruined. There isn't ONE government run program that is done as well as the private sector can do things. And for all of you who think it's about time that the uninsured get health insurance, go read Ayn Rand. Since when is it right for the workers and producers to be taxed to death to pay for the losers, moochers and leaches on society? Oh yeah -- when Karl Marx said it is! The stupid American voters elected these whores in congress and the oval office. Just wait 20 years and you will see the tragic results. Our once great healthcare system will be a socialist nightmare. Healthcare will be rationed, older people will be let die, and the government will even be more controlling over your lives. One Big Ass Mistake America.

 

[Industrialsize]

This is a sad, tragic day for America. This bill, should it become law, will destroy the greatest healthcare system in the world. It got that way because smart, hardworking people were able to profit from their abilities. And why shouldn't they? Now that the government is involved, it will be ruined. There isn't ONE government run program that is done as well as the private sector can do things. And for all of you who think it's about time that the uninsured get health insurance, go read Ayn Rand. Since when is it right for the workers and producers to be taxed to death to pay for the losers, moochers and leaches on society? Oh yeah -- when Karl Marx said it is! The stupid American voters elected these whores in congress and the oval office. Just wait 20 years and you will see the tragic results. Our once great healthcare system will be a socialist nightmare. Healthcare will be rationed, older people will be let die, and the government will even be more controlling over your lives. One Big Ass Mistake America.

It sounds like you swallowed fox news and have the equivalent amount of wrong information.

 

[D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse]

Golfbuddy writes:

This is asad, tragic day for America. This bill, should it become law, will destroy the greatest healthcare system in the world. It got that way because smart, hardworking people were able to profit from their abilities. And why shouldn't they? Now that the government is involved, it will be ruined. There isn't ONE government run program that is done as well as the private sectorcan do things. And for all of you who think it's about time that the uninsured get health insurance, go read Ayn Rand. Since when is it right for the workers and producers to be taxed to death to pay for the losers, moochers and leaches on society? Oh yeah -- when Karl Marx said it is! The stupid American voters elected these whores in congress and the oval office. Just wait 20 years and you will see the tragic results. Our once great healthcare system will be a socialist nightmare. Healthcare will be rationed, older people will be let die, and the government will even be more controlling over your lives. One Big Ass Mistake America.

-------------------

(are you a speechwriter for Michele Bachmann by any chance?)



World Health Organization rankings of the world's health systems:

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait

(etc)


There we are. Sandwiched in between Costa Rica and Slovenia...



--------------------


A History of Health Care Reform. From Teddy Roosevelt in 1912 to the present:

A History of Health Care Reform - Interactive Feature - NYTimes.com

 

[JustAsking]

..There we are. Sandwiched in between Costa Rica and Slovenia...

That's right. When it comes to health care we are the envy of several third world countries.

 

[JustAsking]

.... It got that way because smart, hardworking people were able to profit from their abilities. ....

Yes, just like the banking industry and Ken Lay of Enron. All smart hardworking people following good sound Randian principles of epic selfishness and greed.

An unfettered free market does have a way of producing products and profit for the same reason darwinian evolution produces effective life forms. In evolution, however, the cost is misery, suffering, and the extinction of some 99.999% of every species that ever lived.

By the way, the people who get the richest in our present health care system is the insurance companies.

 

[SR_Blarney_Frank]

This bill, should it become law, will destroy the greatest healthcare system in the world.

Both points are arguable. I'm as big a booster of the US as anyone, but I don't reflexively take it as a given that we are the 'greatest' at anything.

It got that way because smart, hardworking people were able to profit from their abilities.

While people are largely motivated by profit there's nothing to suggest that the motivations are in the interest of the broader population. Witness any variety of corporate crooks who were smart and hardworking and bilked people out of billions. Yay.

And why shouldn't they? Now that the government is involved, it will be ruined. There isn't ONE government run program that is done as well as the private sector can do things.

Walter Reed Hospital was quite the privatization success story huh. Or those 'shocking' showers built by KBR for our troops in Iraq. If you think that somehow incompetence magically disappears once people can make money at it, you're sorely mistaken.

There are intelligent arguments for smaller government in a lot of places - but you haven't made one.

 

[deleted213967]

This is a sad, tragic day for America. This bill, should it become law, will destroy the greatest healthcare system in the world.

So what defines the "greatest healthcare system in the world" is really the diligent Staff Medical Examiner 3 at United HealthCare or the industrious Sr. Billing Reconciliation Clerk at WellPoint?

All that time I entertained the delusion that medical professionals, including MDs working in pharmaceutical R&D, were the foundation of our health care system...and you know how much they despise the Aetnas and the Humanas of the world.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

* Summoning up his best impersonation of Casey Kasem *
And now, coming in at #37 on the countdown is the greatest healthcare system in the world...

 

[B_Nick8]

Wow. Golfbuddy bought the right-wing propaganda hook, line and sinker. What's frightening is that he probably votes, too.

 

[kalipygian]

The US health care 'system' is perhaps the best in the world in terms of extorting money from the consumers and maximizing profits for industry, which we consumers are NOT going to take anymore.

I am surprised at the Dominion of New Zealand being so far down the list.

 

[HazelGod]

Just wait 20 years and you will see the tragic results.

You mean the way we're just now reaping the rewards of the Reagan/Bush I era?