Holy Crimes (Batman!)

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He spoke of differing degrees of seriousness of morally wrong actions, and found moral actions that were worse than shoplifting. He then made the jump of saying that if it is a choice between shoplifting or a more serious crime then shoplifting is preferable.

He was a bit of a prat to say what he said and the media have had a field day with it - but I'm not sure that he actually said anything so terrible.
Yeh, I agree. It was a stupid thing to say - not least because he could land ppl with a criminal record if they listen to him, lol.

But I guess what he was basically saying had some degree of logic to it. Plus, it says something similar in the Bible (not arguing for its truth or otherwise here, btw) anyway - that people aren't hated if they steal bread because they have no food...

Reminds me of a Christian telethon thing I watched recently. Got a good chuckle out of it when they were saying that God would bless those who send a donation of $1,000 or more. Uh...pardon me, Reverend, but wouldn't God bless any donation, or any effort? This raised a few little red flags in my head and set off some alarms.
Ugh this is terrible. Doesn't the NT mention that woman who put only 2 cents in - and say she basically put in more than the rich people? So (if they want to go by the Bible), people who give a lot proportionately to what they have, would be blessed the most... It's got sod-all to do with $1,000 or not, lol.

What blatant and horrible money-grabbing. And who does he think he is, to say what God would and wouldn't bless? Twat.
 
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Ugh this is terrible. Doesn't the NT mention that woman who put only 2 cents in - and say she basically put in more than the rich people? So (if they want to go by the Bible), people who give a lot proportionately to what they have, would be blessed the most... It's got sod-all to do with $1,000 or not, lol.

What blatant and horrible money-grabbing. And who does he think he is, to say what God would and wouldn't bless? Twat.

Yes, that offering meant the most because it was all she had. He also has no right to put a price on any blessing. God loveth a cheerful giver. I've always been taught that if you give, give what you can. I'd imagine it is at least a noble thought. Watch out for those who give a lot, then look to see who's watching. Personally, I think there is more blessing that comes from lending a helping hand to someone truly in need than to give a shitload of money to a church. You don't need big, fancy churches anyways. Where two or three are gathered in His name, He'll be there too. So, a simple get-together in a peaceful place is better than some huge, glitzy church.
 
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Yeh, I agree. I'm not completely sure myself of the existence of the supernatural - but the concepts you mention I would agree with. Plus, they're correct biblically. :p

It's really important to lend a hand where it's needed - being seen is irrelevant (but admittedly nice sometimes if you have been genuine about it, hahaha). :p
 

dj30905

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Yeh, I agree. I'm not completely sure myself of the existence of the supernatural - but the concepts you mention I would agree with. Plus, they're correct biblically. :p

It's really important to lend a hand where it's needed - being seen is irrelevant (but admittedly nice sometimes if you have been genuine about it, hahaha). :p

Y'know...I got a friend who is Pagan and does not like Christians. I asked him one day about this and he said because of the way Pagans have been treated by many so-called Christians in the past. I attended a funeral service for my grandma, and I was rather astounded to see a Christmas tree at the front of the church. I thought about this and wondered how the Reverend would react if I told him that he has a Pagan symbol inside the church. I got to thinking about how Christians in the past have killed Pagans and assimilated their beliefs for easy conversion. Honestly, I believe this was all for control. That was when I finally understood. Now, we are living in a different time and you can't hold Christians today responsible for the past.

I was born in a Pentecostal family, and raised as a Southern Baptist. My father is a preacher, as is his father, and his father, and so forth. I hit the point where I did NOT like going to church because I observed so much hipocrisy. I watched good 'ol Sister So-and-So put people down because she was "holier-than-thou". I watched people looking to see who watched them put money in the plate. There was so much back-stabbing and even preachers who were corrupt and/or didn't care about the members in so many churches that I quit going altogether.

Anyways. As mentioned before, Christians today are not their predecessors. You also have to take each one of them as individuals. Even many of the ones who don't go to church are the ones who are most Christ-like in my book.
 
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Qua

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Anyways. As mentioned before, Christians today are not their predecessors. You also have to take each one of them as individuals. Even many of the ones who don't go to church are the ones who are most Christ-like in my book.

This is my argument to those who blame Christianity for the wars of the middle ages. That and the fact that they used religion for pure power grabs. The religion is not at fault, the leaders of the religion are (though in many cases these leaders were political invoking religion). Completely different things.
 

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This is my argument to those who blame Christianity for the wars of the middle ages. That and the fact that they used religion for pure power grabs. The religion is not at fault, the leaders of the religion are (though in many cases these leaders were political invoking religion). Completely different things.

Agreed. Although there are still "Christians" who will use religion as a power-grab, it's not quite like the times of the Dark Ages. The religion is really not at fault, although it might also depend on the interpretation of the Bible. Whether or not you want to take everything literally is a good start. Oh, and factor in how some tend to become very zealous and extreme in their interpretations. Depends on the individuals I guess. I'd rather focus on what Christ did, and leave a lot out.
 

joyboytoy79

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To that I would argue that the ability to interpret and explain moral codes and advise people of the best way to do things doesn't equate to their teachings being easy to follow. And that goes for the teacher as much as the student. Granted, many religious figures place themselves (or are placed) on a pedestal, but I don't find that necessarily fair. One's superego may discern proper behavior and moral philosophy well while one's id is still as hard to control as anyone's.

I know that's essentially justifying it with a "do as I say, not as I do" argument, but must one claim moral purity in order to define what moral purity is? Perhaps this placing of religious figures on a pedestal is the problem. We're all in the struggle to become better people together.

Just because one can verbalize it and help others doesn't mean he's necessarily tempered enough to help himself. But that shouldn't take away from his ability to help others. An out of shape person can make a perfectly good personal trainer, as an analogy.

EDIT: And just so there's no confusion, I am not religious. Raised Catholic, didn't see it fitting or improving my life so I casted it off. My personal set of beliefs are not in line with any religious sect, so I choose not to follow any, however I have the utmost respect for the fact that many find a religious doctrine enhances or gives some purpose to their lives. Thus I refuse to buy into all this "religion is the source of all conflict" "Ban all religions" etc etc bullshit. Then we'd all be confused lost people writing on large penis politics forums in all likelihood.

For the record, I don't think a leader need be morally pure. I think many church leaders make that claim though, and they lie to cover up their impurities. That, i find reprehensible. You won't find me saying that any religion should ever be banned. I think religion can and does play a significant positive role in the lives of many people, and I wouldn't dream of taking that away from them. I do not, however, agree with Church leaders who make grand claims of morality, make grand assumptions about the morality of others, try to impose their "superior" morality on these others, and then turn out to be the most amoral swine to have ever existed.


This is my argument to those who blame Christianity for the wars of the middle ages. That and the fact that they used religion for pure power grabs. The religion is not at fault, the leaders of the religion are (though in many cases these leaders were political invoking religion). Completely different things.

What you've said here has been my argument all along. Those who invoke religion for political means are most often morally bankrupt. That doesn't mean the religion they subscribe to is bad, but that the religion's purpose has been hijacked by a bad person. So, I think, mostly, you and I are in agreement.
 
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I thought about this and wondered how the Reverend would react if I told him that he has a Pagan symbol inside the church. I got to thinking about how Christians in the past have killed Pagans and assimilated their beliefs for easy conversion.

He probably already knows!

This is my argument for mainstream Christianity not being anything like what the Bible says it should be. The Church at Rome assimilated many pagan symbols - to do with Christmas, Easter, Sunday worship, and so on and so forth - which the OT forbade the Israelites to copy. The early NT church also stuck to the original teachings (with a new spiritual twist after Christ) - so there would be no reason for God to suddenly allow his church to start keeping customs he'd warned against.

If the Bible IS true - then there's no point, for me anyway, being in a mainstream Christian church; and if the Bible isn't true - there's still no point. :wink: That's not to say there aren't many good, sincere people attending church, who try their best to lead good lives.
 
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What you've said here has been my argument all along. Those who invoke religion for political means are most often morally bankrupt. That doesn't mean the religion they subscribe to is bad, but that the religion's purpose has been hijacked by a bad person. So, I think, mostly, you and I are in agreement.

I do agree that modern day Christians (and moderate muslims) shouldn't be blamed for what their predecessors did. They should be taken on their own merits.

I also worry about power grabs - the RC's invite to disaffected Anglicans seems like such an example. Also, I worry about the Catholic Church latching onto the EU at some point, to preserve a 'Christian Europe' (as the church has so many times in the past, whenever a new attempt to revive the Roman Empire has taken place...). For the past 400 yrs or so, Britain has been independent enough to provide a counter-balance to this - but that's not true at the present time...
 
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Jason

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The protestant position is often presented as "sola scriptura" - the Bible alone as the Word of God. At an extreme, every word of the Bible is asserted by some protestants to be true, with all the intellectual contortions accepting this requires.

A more credible response is that the Bible is a reflection of the Word of God, not itself the Word of God. Rather the Bible is written by fallible men, translated with mistakes and obfuscations, the books selected through a less than convincing process, and we all understand it imperfectly. This is presumably what is meant by the statement in Corinthians XIII that now we see through a glass, darkly. The Bible is imperfect, as it itself says. Many protestants do in effect accept this though often not in quite these words - indeed most protestants end a Bible reading in church with the phrase "this is the Word of God".

Mystical Christianity takes account of a personal experience of God as guiding each one to understand God - and to understand what is right and wrong action. There's a lot of overlap with New Age ideas, with other religions, with humanism, with many of the values of the C21st. A view of the Bible which sees it as an imperfect reflection really needs the mystical dimension of a direct communion with God - in protestant terms the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers.

Roman Catholic belief asserts the central role of church tradition and therefore of the papacy. In a way this does answer the issue of imperfections within the Bible - ultimately the pope has infalibility in matters of dotrine and can solve them. But the RC church is in effect a political structure - and for much of the last two-thousand years Europe has had a balance between the political power of the temporal princes and the political power of the RC spiritual princes. Ideologically the present EU project and a resurgent RC church go hand in hand.

I have enormous concerns about a RC church which as an institution decided to permit the rape of hundreds of children rather than embarass itself and some of its priests by identifying them as paedophiles. The actions of individual priests are just their individual wrong acts. Similarly the actions of individuals in positions of responsibility who covered up for the priests are again just actions of individual wrong doing. But the action of the whole RC church including the then pope in covering up such morally abhorrent and criminal activity is shocking beyond belief. We have to take on board that many senior RC churchmen - the pope, many cardinals, many bishops - thought it was acceptable to allow the continuation of child rape in order to protect priests and respect for the priesthood. I cannot square this view with the legal system of any western country, with any moral code, with Christianity. Of course the protestant view as set out in the "Westminster Confession" is that the pope is not Christian (and for that matter not Catholic). Maybe this is correct. The RC church has disgraced itself utterly.

Other threads on this board look for example at the world entering into a new age (is it 2012?) and at the growing power of the EU. Lots of issues seem to tend towards the idea of an imminent crisis. Maybe we are looking at a mystical Christianity emerging from the mess - in part as a reaction against the "Holy Crimes" of the RC church. Do we look to an internet-age English speaking mystical belief that finds Christianity and New Age Spirituality are actually much the same and the RC church exactly as the Westminster Confession sets out?
 

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ultimately the pope has infalibility in matters of dotrine and can solve them.

I would just like to point out that there have only been two "infalliable" statements ever made by any pope. That Mary was conceived without sin and that she was assumed body and soul into heaven. Controversial shit right there.
 

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I would just like to point out that there have only been two "infalliable" statements ever made by any pope. That Mary was conceived without sin and that she was assumed body and soul into heaven. Controversial shit right there.

You are of course correct as far as the infallible statements by popes go. But there are also ex cathedra declarations and infallible pronouncements by ecumenical councils, both of which are considered by RC theology to be infallible. Indeed it is an infallible statement by the First Vatican Council that promulgated the present document of papal infallibility, so unless you accept infallible ecumenical councils you can't have an infallible pope!

The XXIX Articles of the Church of England specifically rejects the infallibility of ecumenical councils. Evangelical Churches reject the concept as it is not scriptural. The Reformed Churches go a stage further not only rejecting the idea but condemning the Roman Catholic church as anti-Christian for having the pope as a head thereby usurping the role of Christ.
 
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I would disagree with them that Church tradition is more important than the doctrines laid out in the Bible (especially as far as syncretised paganism is concerned, and changing the day of the sabbath, etc). I'm also in agreement with the CofE in that putting the Pope as vicar of/in place of Christ is not Biblical.

I don't believe the infallibility doctrine either. It's bollocks to suggest Mary was born immaculately - it's just conjecture, and not biblically sound. There's also no evidence to suggest she was 'assumed into heaven'. As far as the Bible goes, Christ is the only person this has happened to. And various places suggest most people are just dead and buried until a resurrection after Christ's return.

Not sure where they get the infallibility thing from anyway? If they claim it's because they are successors of Peter (which I would dispute), then it doesn't hold water, because just after Christ gave the keys to heaven, and said that he would build his Church on a rock*, Peter went on to make at least 2 big mistakes. Firstly saying Christ wouldn't die and be crucified (immediately after the keys of heaven paragraph), and then denied him 3 times before the cock crowed. Not really great eveidence of infallibility. :S

*I think the 'You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church' sentence is misinterpreted anyway. It actually says he's calling Peter a small stone 'petros' , but that he would build his church on 'petra' a large rock (presumably the foundations of his own teachings?).

*rambles on*
 
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Roman Catholic belief asserts the central role of church tradition and therefore of the papacy. In a way this does answer the issue of imperfections within the Bible - ultimately the pope has infalibility in matters of dotrine and can solve them. But the RC church is in effect a political structure - and for much of the last two-thousand years Europe has had a balance between the political power of the temporal princes and the political power of the RC spiritual princes. Ideologically the present EU project and a resurgent RC church go hand in hand.

I'd agree with you on this. :redface:

As far as the paedophile priests etc are concerned - I think the whole doctrine of ministers having to remain unmarried is bollocks anyway, and another misunderstanding. Paul said it was better for people (at that time) to remain unmarried if they could, but not that they had to. Also, when defining the characteristics of people who should be ordained ministers - he states they should be blameless etc, and 'the husband of one wife' (ie: married but not playing around). So it just seems to be another, highly damaging, wrong doctrine. :mad:
 

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Doesn't it strike anyone as odd how all religions (and their respective gods) always seem to need lots of money? I find it terribly amusing that the generic christian god many Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, and evangelicals tend to favor -- that all-knowing, all-powerful, all-seeing male god whom all must fear -- is always broke and needs more money. Just can't figure that one out. Seems like a terribly greedy bastard to me.

I'm also amused to see that the weekly round-up of "holy crimes" has brought out so many christian apologists. I remember telling a mormon co-worker who tried to "bring the gospel" into my life (and who did not know I grew up in the thick of that religion) that I found believers of his faith to be absolutely repugnant -- and then I went on to enumerate the many factual events I had personally experienced to support my well-founded views. He responded by admitting that "it's the people who are bad, not the church." But he could never seem to get it through his simple head that without any members there would be no "church." Descarte before the horse? Can't really understand that kind of reasoning.

However, please note that I'm not picking and choosing what shows up from the machine search I do to find these weekly tidbits. What shows up is what shows up. Haven't run across much on bad buddhists, jaundiced jews, messed up muslims, or hindu high jinks; but I'm sure adherents to those faiths have their "special" hypocrites.

I also didn't start the thread just to claim that "people of faith" are inherently naive (even though, personally, I think they are). Anyone is welcome to believe what they want as long as they don't pressure everyone else to believe the same thing or create laws based on their belief systems that cause problems. Religious law is just that: religious law. And I fail to see what it has to do with an open democracy that strives to give all participants equal rights.

Regardless, keep checking this thread. I'll add at least an entry a week summarizing Holy Crimes (and holy criminal acts of stupidity). After all, those who would hold themselves beyond reproach and "special" are nothing but lying rascals when they get caught with their's or another's pants down.

Cheers. :biggrin1::smile::smile::biggrin1::smile::biggrin1:
 
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Jason

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And I fail to see what it has to do with an open democracy that strives to give all participants equal rights.

To take this bull by the horns there seems to be a correlation between democracy and protestantism. In the English tradition political reform and religious reform have gone hand in hand. Most of the world's stable democracies are within broadly protestant states. Roman Catholic states tend to promote dictatorship or oligarchy - the not so distant history of Spain and Italy and the recent history or current reality of many countries in central and south America. The mindset that gives unique powers to a priest and a church structure is the mindset that accepts and even expects dictatorship. The mindset that accepts the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers - and direct communion with God that comes from this - demands direct participation in government.

The present EU structures with their enormous and growing democratic defecit are fundamentally at odds with the beliefs of protestantism. Ultimately protestants will feel the EU is a foreign land. To date we have only seen this response from the protestant fringe (I'm really thinking of Ian Paisley and the DUP) but it is an emotional and religious response which is likely to grow as the EU moves further away from democracy. By contrast the RC mindset appears to have no problems with the idea of top-down authority.
 
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I think also, by and large - it was the freer-thinking Protestant countries that became modern and prosperous sooner, compared to the staunchly Catholic ones. This may be for much the same reason...plus the feeling they were allowed to test and question things, and not see progress as a bad thing.
 

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The Algonquin tribes practiced what is widely recognized as a democratic form of government over themselves and the tribes they protected that lived along what we now call the Eastern Seaboard. They were quite successful long before Europeans showed up and "discovered" the "Americas." And the USA's "democracy" is based upon the original design by the Algonquins (not Greece). But Brits aren't expected to know much about the indigenous people of the Americas. I'm rather certain I can quickly find other examples -- totally unrelated to Western Civilization -- where the same precepts Westerners use define a democracy are the foundation of longer-lived cultures. You need to sort of gently pull your heads out of Western philosophy to recognize that democratization is not unique to the agonizing development of European traditions. And from which Greek state did the Western World co-opt the idea of a democracy? Ten points for anyone who can name (time and place) of another seminal democratic system that predates Greece by almost 1,000 years. Whoops! giving too much away. LOL!
 
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Democracy has been invented many times in many places - and most democracies are of course limited democracies. The democracy of Magna Carta would in today's world be regarded as a scarcely restricted dictatorship.

The Algonquins are fascinating. Lets be provocative! Viking voyages to what they called Vinland encountered Algonquin peoples. There is a case to be made that the Vikings settled parts of the Atlantic coast and inter-married with Algonquin people, with Viking ideas and genes flowing into the Algonquin cultural mix.The Algonquins indeed had a form of democracy and used money (like the Vikings) and there is some evidence of Old Norse words in some Algonquian languages (eg the ending of Massachusetts cognate with Germanic stadt, a township). There is (disputed) genetic evidence from the Narragansetts (an Algonquian people). There is ethnic evidence of early discriptions of some eastern seaboard Algonquians.
 

joyboytoy79

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Democracy has been invented many times in many places - and most democracies are of course limited democracies. The democracy of Magna Carta would in today's world be regarded as a scarcely restricted dictatorship.

The Algonquins are fascinating. Lets be provocative! Viking voyages to what they called Vinland encountered Algonquin peoples. There is a case to be made that the Vikings settled parts of the Atlantic coast and inter-married with Algonquin people, with Viking ideas and genes flowing into the Algonquin cultural mix.The Algonquins indeed had a form of democracy and used money (like the Vikings) and there is some evidence of Old Norse words in some Algonquian languages (eg the ending of Massachusetts cognate with Germanic stadt, a township). There is (disputed) genetic evidence from the Narragansetts (an Algonquian people). There is ethnic evidence of early discriptions of some eastern seaboard Algonquians.

So... what you're saying (without citing an source for this idea) is that the Algonquins got their ideas about democracy from the (then) very PAGAN Vikings, who, at home, lived under a feudal lordship? I'm sorry if I'm unable to connect the dots, but this makes no sense whatsoever, especially in light of your "protestantism and democracy go hand in hand" speech from earlier.

This may provide some information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinland
As might this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algonquin
And also this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newfoundland_(island)
 
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