Homophobia

[D_Harry_Crax]

Are you kidding....her books have been around forever and will no doubt still be around way after you and I are long gone.

Longevity is no evidence of greatness. Lots of dead idiots' books are still around.

 

[pitloverfl]

Homophobia is a god awful word. It's loaded with all kinds of baggage and it's painfully bad as a descriptive term. It also tends to be a conversation stopper, along with "racism" or "Nazi". I guess it has its place, but I really can't stand it.

Hey, there's no doubting that lots of people have bad feelings about gays. Not at all. Some of it may be motivated out of fear, but not all. Fear is not the same as dislike, reprobation or revulsion. It's a complicated picture, and boiling it down to a simple, inaccurate formula isn't going to help move the ball. Yeah, there are ways to make the situation better, but thinking of it in terms of pathology is probably not the best way to win converts.

Confession time. I'm scared of getting eaten by sharks. That doesn't mean I secretly think I'm a shark or that I hate sharks or even that I'm interested in sharks. Those things really don't have anything to do with one another.

Gay/straight problems and the dislike some people have toward LGTB individuals ARE really complicated. There are lots of things going on: gender stereotypes and role expectations; perceived threats to masculinity; religious issues; moral qualms; aesthetic distaste; cultural mores; in group v. out group tension; fear of the different; health and disease questions; procreative matters; legal norms; etc. etc. etc. To oversimplify the picture is to do us all a serious disservice.

It's going to take a lot of patience, education and leading by example to turn the tide. Time is going to be the biggest factor. While we work and wait, though, minimizing and mocking people's objections is just going to harden their prejudice. The best thing gay people can do to change hearts and minds is to just get out there and live their lives openly and unselfconsciously. The best thing gay friendly people can do is to call their other friends on their bullshit -- just do it in a friendly, non confrontational way.

Next time your college buddy says "That movie was so gay" just tell him "Yeah, it sucked, but dude, that's so uncool calling it gay -- You wanna get laid, right".

 

[B_dxjnorto]

I'm scared of getting eaten by sharks.

Bad analogy.

 

[pitloverfl]

People are not ordinarily fearful of things they have no interest in.

Um, the vast majority of things people are fearful about aren't things they are interested in. They are things they are interested in avoiding. Perhaps that's what you meant? There are, on the margin, a few cases where one might be fearful of a temptation, but that's the exception, not the rule. The addict who is afraid of being around things or people associated with his addiction comes to mind.

The old meme about straight men disliking gays because of some latent homosexual tendency may have some merit to it in some cases, but on the whole it's just a silly way to play on male insecurity about masculinity. It's really not a good way to improve the situation.

 

[SpeedoMike]

ask Archie Bunker...

 

[B_Hung Jon]

Um, the vast majority of things people are fearful about aren't things they are interested in. They are things they are interested in avoiding. Perhaps that's what you meant? There are, on the margin, a few cases where one might be fearful of a temptation, but that's the exception, not the rule. The addict who is afraid of being around things or people associated with his addiction comes to mind.

The old meme about straight men disliking gays because of some latent homosexual tendency may have some merit to it in some cases, but on the whole it's just a silly way to play on male insecurity about masculinity. It's really not a good way to improve the situation.

Whoa, I'm having a hard time digesting what you're saying. I know a lot of homophobic guys at my college. I'd agree with you about their lack of "homosexual tendencies" but the reality is that most of these guys are fearful of other men. They're not mainly fearful because some guys are gay but rather because they're male. I've talked with many buddies about this and they mostly agree that their fear of other guys is what makes them homophobic. The idea or thought of intimacy with other men freaks them out; for example, being emotionally or physically vulnerable.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

The old meme about straight men disliking gays because of some latent homosexual tendency may have some merit to it in some cases, but on the whole it's just a silly way to play on male insecurity about masculinity. It's really not a good way to improve the situation.

You may be right.
Fences don't go down when you challenge another person in a way that reinforces their defences.
And saying such a thing to a 'straight' homophobe is certainly going to reinforce defences.

But that doesn't mean that there's no merit in the notion that virulent homophobia is often a defensive reaction against one's own homosexual urges.
Therapists have known this for years. A patient will come in, unpack his complaints, mention peripherally that he 'don't like queers' ... and a year later, often enough, there's material coming out about homosexual dreams, urges, and even experiences.
The University of Georgia did an interesting study that was published more than a decade ago in The Journal of Abnormal Psychology.
A group of 'heterosexual' men were divided into a homophobic and a non-homophobic group.
They were then individually shown videos of sexual encounters between men. When they were viewing, their penises were hooked up to measuring devices that would show any tendency to become erect.
Some members of both groups showed measurable erection
But 66 percent of the non-homophobic men had no measurable response; the same could be said of only 20 percent of the homophobes.

 

[pitloverfl]

I've talked with many buddies about this and they mostly agree that their fear of other guys is what makes them homophobic. The idea or thought of intimacy with other men freaks them out; for example, being emotionally or physically vulnerable.

I agree with you 100%. It's the mores about how men are supposed to interact with other men in modern western culture. It's much more about gender roles and expectations than it is about latent homosexuality. Straight men are afraid of being seen as not fulfilling their socially accepted role as a man. Anything that calls that into question is a major threat to their sense of self. Certain kinds of intimacy between men can do this. Sex definitely does, but lots of other kinds can, too.

So what needs to change is our societal understanding of the male gender role. That is happening and it's happening at a faster pace than at any time in human history. I'm very hopeful about it.

 

[B_dxjnorto]

But 66 percent of the non-homophobic men had no measurable response; the same could be said of only 20 percent of the homophobes.

Yup. What I mean. If you don't care, you probably do not feel threatened. Thanks for the timely reference Rubi.

 

[mandoman]

I'm known a few people who were very, very heterosexual, and not at all intimidated or put off by the thought of other men being gay. They accepted it as part of life's great pageant.
More often, men who are homophobic are pushing down a little part of their attraction to men which is surfacing inside them at that moment.

 

[SomeGuyOverThere]

I think the term "homophobia" is extremely misleading, it implies an irrational fear towards gay people, whereas what it really means is hatred towards homosexuals.

Why is it that we call hatred of people based on race "racism" but hatred of gay people is somehow passed off as a fear? Do you think white supremecists are scared of other races? From the few encounters I've had, I really don't think that's the case - what they have is a world view which makes them blame things on people from other races.

You never hear nazis going on about how afraid they are of blacks or Jews, you always hear them blame them for "taking our jobs" or "degrading our culture" or "invading out land", there's no real fear in there, there's just irrational hatred. Similarly the rabid Christians who blamed Hurricane Katrina on "the gays" and proclaimed the destruction of New Orleans as "God's Punishment", weren't afraid of gays (God perhaps), and obviously hadn't been to New Orleans or they'd realise the French Quarter was untouched by the Hurricane... and that's where all the gay bars are.

I think we like to say it's fear, because it's like saying "oh look at those stupid people with their small minds who are scared of what they don't understand!", really I don't think it's so much to do with not understanding (though certainly having not much of an understanding about the world plays a part), and much more to do with just being an angry, ignorant person who sees everything as a particular group's fault. If anything the "not understanding" part is about not understanding people or society.

 

[headbang8]

The way to treat homophobia (as a social problem) is to come out. The more homophobes see that gay men are everywhere, in all walks of life, the less tenable their fear or hatred becomes.

 

[helgaleena]

The nature of phobia is that is is a fear. Fear is based in ignorance and also in self doubt. Those who have a phobia must face it and realize that the fear is magnifying the importance of its focus beyond what it deserves so that it takes up too much of the phobic person's energy.

I am not afraid of men, or of homosexuals-- I am afraid of Humans. Getting over it is an ongoing struggle, but deep down, I admit I can't live without you all...

 

[craig_uk]

I think the term "homophobia" is extremely misleading, it implies an irrational fear towards gay people, whereas what it really means is hatred towards homosexuals.

I am pretty sure most anti-gay feeling is based entirely on fear.

For many guys it might be a fear of being found out, a fear that they might be gay, a fear that others might think they are gay. The best way they see of defending themselves is attack. Their homophobia reveals itself as hatred but it is an irrational fear.

You never hear nazis going on about how afraid they are of blacks or Jews, you always hear them blame them for "taking our jobs" or "degrading our culture" or "invading out land", there's no real fear in there, there's just irrational hatred.

Homophobes don't admit to being frightened of homosexuals either. Isn't fear of losing ones culture or job to an immigrant a fear? Irrational or not this is a fear that racists have and will continue to exploit.

the rabid Christians who blamed Hurricane Katrina on "the gays" and proclaimed the destruction of New Orleans as "God's Punishment", weren't afraid of gays (God perhaps), and obviously hadn't been to New Orleans or they'd realise the French Quarter was untouched by the Hurricane... and that's where all the gay bars are.

Christian hatred of homosexuals is entirely based on fear. It is written in the bible simply because some bronze age or iron age scribe wrote it there for the benefit and control of their people. It is a guide to how they should live by putting the fear of god into a primitive people and to encourage them to live in ways approved of by their rulers. The homophobic bits are in there because of fear - a fear that homosexuality might catch on and therefore the birth rate, so essential to the tribe or young nation, might fall.

I think we like to say it's fear, because it's like saying "oh look at those stupid people with their small minds who are scared of what they don't understand!", really I don't think it's so much to do with not understanding (though certainly having not much of an understanding about the world plays a part), and much more to do with just being an angry, ignorant person who sees everything as a particular group's fault. If anything the "not understanding" part is about not understanding people or society.

So an irrational fear of things they don't understand then?

People don't get angry or upset about things that don't bother them. Just not understanding something doesn't make people angry. They get angry and upset about things they care about like their way of life. If they perceive a threat, no matter how irrational, to that way of life they get angry.

 

[SomeGuyOverThere]

.

You're right, I had a brain fart moment and spoke a bunch of senseless crap which i knew was wrong.

Stressed and tired isn't a good state to try and argue in.

 

[B_Marius567]

i do not want to see men kissing or getting it up the ass by a man

 

[B_Hung Jon]

i do not want to see men kissing or getting it up the ass by a man

I can see the part about not wanting to see a guy getting it up the butt but to be honest, I don't think that's something you'll have to see at any point in your life if you don't want to. After all, it's an intimate act, and people don't usually preform those in public. As far as guys kissing in public, I see it all the time in Los Angeles where I live. I also see guys holding hands, hugging each other and being generally affectionate. I think it's a wonderful thing. I think any and all expressions of love should be encouraged in all people whatever their orientation. We live at a time when love is not exactly that dominant of an emotional expression. I think we need all the love we can get in our society, especially among males who generally are more interested in competing, fighting or harming each other. :biggrin1:

 

[Countryguy63]

i do not want to see men kissing or getting it up the ass by a man

Then this is easy..don't look.

I don't want to see any major PDA's in public, but what you described above would only happen in private or porn, and seeing it can definitely be avoided

 

[B_dxjnorto]

Those who have a phobia must face it and realize that the fear is magnifying the importance of its focus beyond what it deserves so that it takes up too much of the phobic person's energy.

Yoda speaks true. Bring your phobias out of the dark into the light and they are not nearly as scary.

 

[pitloverfl]

Couldn't agree more that people need to deal with their anxieties, but I still think you folks are kidding yourselves if you think prejudice against the LGBT community is all about fear. Not every conflict of value systems fits the "I'm scared of you so I hate you" formula. It's is just an easy way to make ourselves feel superior.