Homophobic Murders ...

findfirefox

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Stronzo said:
That, in my opinion fff, is totally irrational.

People once were lynched in the south without fear of repercussion.

Since there now is repurcussion (i.e. hate crime status) lynchings have ceased to occur.

It's primarilly the result of a fear of being held accountable not through any great understanding of the equality of the races I'll warrant.

As long as there are ignorant people in this world, who can't understand that people are different, there will be hate crimes against different types of people. I think hate crimes will never cease, I do hope that they become less frequent, but as long as there are ignorant people, there will be hate crimes, and to me, there will always be ignorant people.
 

SomeGuyOverThere

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findfirefox said:
In order to stop homophobic murders your going to have too stop all murders, simply meaning random people are killed everyday who are just going about their business, let alone if you give people a "reason" such as being gay, bi, black, Latino, Jewish, anything.

In my opinion, the murders of people for reasons such as race, sexuality, etc will never stop, and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

That doesnt even make sense.

The key to hate crimes is motive - it is never the case that a "random" person is killed "randomly" on the street; there is allways a motive, a reason for the killing, even if the reason is "The killer is a complete psychopath" that is a reason.

Hate crimes, i.e. homophobic murders exist because certain people have the motivation to kill someone because that person is gay. I.e. there is a direct corrolation between the minority status of the individual and the killing - the person was killed because they were gay.

If that person was killed by a complete nutjob, because the killer was a complete nutjob and had no actual motivation beyond his own insanity, then it is not a hate crime.

So, now that we have differentiated "a murder" with "a homophobic murder", we can talk about stopping the latter - and the way to do that is create understanding, and educate people properly in social values and acceptance, and in this I think Governments need to play a part because God knows that the parents of these idiots aren't!

But in any case, create understanding and true equality and hate crimes will pretty much dissappear, because people would no longer kill based entirely on minorty status.

But that is utopian and I realise that.
 

Matthew

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alex8 said:
Kondo's point is that, although one may be drawn to focus on that which is 'close to home', it does not necessarily mean one is excluding all else, let alone adopting a prejudiced viewpoint towards 'others'.

Such an important point. It's so simple to focus on what harms us, and just as simple to ignore what harms others, especially when we ourselves have a role in it. How ironic it is to see someone who squeals about his own pain while standing on someone else's neck. "Why won't anyone help me?"

In my opinion, it's a sign of material overprivilege or spiritual underdevelopment, probably both. But it's hard to get through to someone like that. Sometimes they'll do anything rather than take a long, hard look inside. I usually pass them by and wait until they're ready to listen and learn(if they ever are).
 

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findfirefox said:
In my opinion, the murders of people for reasons such as race, sexuality, etc will never stop, and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
This is a totally defeatist attitude, and implies that we might all just as well jump lemming-like to our doom from aloft the cliffs, and be done with it. :rolleyes:

Of course, on some level, a number of idiots will always exist who retain certain attitudes and commit certain crimes and atrocities. However, suggesting that one should simply 'give up' and not attempt to educate or otherwise alter general social attitudes is akin to saying that the suffragettes, and later, the feminists, ought never to have bothered, leaving women without the vote, without access to academia and much of the workplace, and generally tied to the kitchen or forced to stay at home to raise children.

Yes, one can argue that efforts to alter attitudes and legislation have not effected a complete change, with various prejudices and examples of discrimination against women still in evidence... but there has been monumental, tangible change..

And that is what is being said on this thread with regard to hate crimes: yes, the notion can never eradicate all hate crime, but by circulating the idea that these are examples of unacceptable behavior in society, and by illustrating this through reasoned argument, one can effect a great degree of change in an attempt to make this a better world --- of course, not a perfect world, but a better one. Which is always a goal worth struggling for.
 

findfirefox

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alex8 said:
This is a totally defeatist attitude, and implies that we might all just as well jump lemming-like to our doom from aloft the cliffs, and be done with it. :rolleyes:

Of course, on some level, a number of idiots will always exist who retain certain attitudes and commit certain crimes and atrocities. However, suggesting that one should simply 'give up' and not attempt to educate or otherwise alter general social attitudes is akin to saying that the suffragettes, and later, the feminists, ought never to have bothered, leaving women without the vote, without access to academia and much of the workplace, and generally tied to the kitchen or forced to stay at home to raise children.

Yes, one can argue that efforts to alter attitudes and legislation have not effected a complete change, with various prejudices and examples of discrimination against women still in evidence... but there has been monumental, tangible change..

And that is what is being said on this thread with regard to hate crimes: yes, the notion can never eradicate all hate crime, but by circulating the idea that these are examples of unacceptable behavior in society, and by illustrating this through reasoned argument, one can effect a great degree of change in an attempt to make this a better world --- of course, not a perfect world, but a better one. Which is always a goal worth struggling for.

I completely agree with you.

I don't know what was up with my earlier posts, but upon review they don't even agree with my own views, its like I just spewed a whole bunch of crap into text for everyone to see.

I apologise to anyone I may have upset or angered.
 

B_Stronzo

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Matthew said:
In my opinion, it's a sign of material overprivilege or spiritual underdevelopment, probably both. But it's hard to get through to someone like that. Sometimes they'll do anything rather than take a long, hard look inside. I usually pass them by and wait until they're ready to listen and learn(if they ever are).

Yes. I agree entirely Matthew that it's 'hard to get through to someone like that'. Good point.

Your second point about listening and learning is good too. But I take a different approach. I don't let the bastards off the hook.
 

healthycircumcision

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Nelly Gay said:
Recently two homophobic psychopaths were given 28 years (life?) for the murder of a gay man in Clapham, London.
They wanted to kill a "poofter".
Sadly, the media is bleating about hate crimes and "preferential" sentences.
We have not gone so far from the Matthew Shepherd case !
I WONDER WHY THE EVIL MEN AND WOMEN WHO COMMIT A LOT OF ATROCITIES IN IRAQ,WERE NOT PROSECUTED OR IMPEACHED<THEY WERE SIMPLY PUNISHED FOR THEIR ATROCITIES IN ABU GHRAIB PRISON IN IRAQ,AND THEY WERE STRAIGHT MEN AND WOMEN!!! TO TELL THE TRUTH,A LOT OF STRAIGHT MEN DELUDE US THAT THEY~RE GAY,ONLY TO ATTACK US,WE ARE STRONG ENOUGH.A LOT OF STRONG AND MUSCLED MEN ARE SO WEAK IN FRONT OF BEAUTIFUL WOMEN WHORES,THESE WOMEN WHORES,SIMPLY CONTROL THESE STRONG MEN,AND THEY ARE SLAVES FOR THEM,HOW WEAK THEY ARE>GAYS,LET~S UNITE,WHITE,BLACK,ALL RELIGIONS,ALL NATIONS:UNITY IS STRENGTH.
 

healthycircumcision

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[Stronzo,I~M SURE AS THEY HURT GAYS,ONE DAY THEY~LL BE HURT,THEY SOW EVIL,THEY~LL REAP EVIL. THE BEST THING IS TO POST COMMENTS IN ALL DEMOCRATIC FREE SPEECH WEBSITES,LET~S UNITE AND BEAT THE BARRIERS OF RACISM,RELIGION.UNFORTUNATELY,A LOT OF GAYS ATTACKED ME FOR RECOMMENDING CIRCUMCISION,I FORGIVE THEM.
 

Freddie53

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Interesting thread. But some seem to be sikirting the issue. We have "premeditated" murder as a morre serious crime than a murder that is not premeditated" This we have had on our books for generations. The question is should the sentence be a little more severe if the crime was a result of intense hate which is a form for premeditation.

Hate crime legislation is just simply codifying another area of crime which we are doing now and have been doing for generations.

The only problem with hate crime legeslation is limiting it to certain groups. It should include all crimes that are a result of "premeditated hate," not just the ones against a Legal codified list.

But do we need hate crime legislation? You bet. Just as much as we need Murder in the first degree, second degree, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter etc.

There is a place in our justical system to codify hate as a premeditated crime with the sentence being a bit more serious just because the crime was a result of a premeditated condition whihc in this case is hate.

A group of people haning outside an establishment waiting for a person of "any group" to come out the door, and then beet them to the point of non recognition for no other reason than hatrred of a certain group of people should should result in a stiffer punishment and that stiffer crime should be codified.

My only objection is limited crimes of hate by law to certain groups. If in a court of law, it can be determined to "be a crime of hate," then a stiffer penalty should be imposed. It is a form of premeditation which has always in our judicial system required a stiffer sentence than would otherwise be given.
 

AlteredEgo

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I know of a few cases of white people I know being beaten for being white in the wrong neighborhood at the wrong hour. The ones who chose to involve police were told that their assailants, once apprehended, would be charged with various hate crimes. When investigating, however, authorities found that "no one saw nothing".

I just posted this in response to those who seem to believe that only certain groups are protected by established laws against hate crimes. As far as I can tell, hate has no age, race, gender or sexual orientation.

I think the reason you never see protests about hate crimes perpetrated against "Joe Whiteguy" is that generally speaking, Joe Whiteguy can go wherever he pleases whenever he wishes and not worry about violent crime. Even in areas where one might think he should be afraid, Joe is safe as long as he feels confident that he is safe. But some people, including homosexuals, have to worry all thee time that they may be targeted. For them, it isn't a matter of avoiding certain areas, or minding their business. Hate will find them anyway, or so it seems.

Yes, hate crimes are horrible, just like any other violent crime, no matter the victim. However, as has been pointed out already by some who already posted, some victims are more likely targets, and more oppressed than others.
 

hobbitDJ

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Stronzo said:
Sorry hobbit but I'm having a very difficult time believing you're a homosexual.:33:

I have several guys that will attest to my skills at pleasuring the male form in many exciting and pleasurable ways. I'm just of the Libertarian ilk, which from what I gather is like old-school, pre-theocrat Republican, with a dash of Democrat social concern :)
 

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healthycircumcision said:
[Stronzo,I~M SURE AS THEY HURT GAYS,ONE DAY THEY~LL BE HURT,THEY SOW EVIL,THEY~LL REAP EVIL. THE BEST THING IS TO POST COMMENTS IN ALL DEMOCRATIC FREE SPEECH WEBSITES,LET~S UNITE AND BEAT THE BARRIERS OF RACISM,RELIGION.UNFORTUNATELY,A LOT OF GAYS ATTACKED ME FOR RECOMMENDING CIRCUMCISION,I FORGIVE THEM.

I like how broadly you think.
 

SomeGuyOverThere

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healthycircumcision said:
I WONDER WHY THE EVIL MEN AND WOMEN WHO COMMIT A LOT OF ATROCITIES IN IRAQ,WERE NOT PROSECUTED OR IMPEACHED<THEY WERE SIMPLY PUNISHED FOR THEIR ATROCITIES IN ABU GHRAIB PRISON IN IRAQ,AND THEY WERE STRAIGHT MEN AND WOMEN!!! TO TELL THE TRUTH,A LOT OF STRAIGHT MEN DELUDE US THAT THEY~RE GAY,ONLY TO ATTACK US,WE ARE STRONG ENOUGH.A LOT OF STRONG AND MUSCLED MEN ARE SO WEAK IN FRONT OF BEAUTIFUL WOMEN WHORES,THESE WOMEN WHORES,SIMPLY CONTROL THESE STRONG MEN,AND THEY ARE SLAVES FOR THEM,HOW WEAK THEY ARE>GAYS,LET~S UNITE,WHITE,BLACK,ALL RELIGIONS,ALL NATIONS:UNITY IS STRENGTH.

look at your keyboard.

Look at the letters.

The first line starts QWERTY.

Look down a line to the second one, which starts ASDFG.

Look at the A key.

Now look one key to the left, it should say "Caps Lock".

Please press that key now.

And now you may continue to use the Internet.

Thankyou.
 

DC_DEEP

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Freddie, you took several paragraphs to say, basically, what I had put in one of my earlier posts. Yes, there should be stiffer penalties for hate crimes. No, they should not be specific to any one group. Just simply a fairly-well defined sub-category of murder or assault. Legally define the motive/intent, not the perpetrator/victim.
 

Nelly Gay

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DC_DEEP said:
And while I'm at it, what do you think public reaction would be if a group of women (armed with some serious weapons, say stun guns and nightsticks) attacked and tortured a guy, then strung him up on a fence to die? Her claim? "He touched my breast when we were at the bar, and I panicked."

"Homosexual panic" was used effectively for many years in respect of gay murders/assaults.
"He made advances to me and I clubbed him to death with a rock" got a lot of homophobes shorter sentences !
Now however, the perpetrators of violence are asked what were they doing in a gay bar and why did they engage in conversation with the victim allowing him to pay for X number of drinks . Moreover, why go home with someone who you have only just met in a local gay bar ?
Transsexuals sadly are also a large victim group with a great many transsexual murders...
Plus ca change !
 

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COLJohn said:
That is disturbing on so many levels. Naively I had long believed that England was more gay-tolerant -- or at least less homophobic -- than America, but apparently that is not so. I haven't come across any studies that conclusviely indicate the primary motivating factor for these hate crrimes. The usual suspects of poorly educated young men who are sexually insecure certainly seem to crop up often enough anecdotally. In that trove of information you seem to have at your fingertips, Alex8, do you know of any definitive studies?

David Morley, who survived the "Admiral Duncan" nail-bombing was beaten to death by a gang of feral teenagers including a 14 year old girl.
His death was recorded on a mobile phone as part of this new "happy slapping" craze.
His murderers got sentenced to seven years and will be out and about before their 20th birthday.
David Morley was in his 30s.
The attack was recorded on CCTV on London's South Bank.
England is very liberal .
 

DC_DEEP

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Nelly Gay said:
"Homosexual panic" was used effectively for many years in respect of gay murders/assaults...
I understand that. I'm not sure if you were agreeing with me or not, but I was just pointing out that what some people see as a reasonable defense, if the tables are turned, becomes just absolutely ludicrous. I was trying to get people (who dismiss my outrage that anyone ever even came up with "gay panic" defense) to understand this: If anything, claiming "gay panic" should aggravate the case, not mitigate it. Killing someone who simply made an unwanted pass at you in a bar? Be real. If every female in every bar (or anywhere else) killed every guy who made an unwanted pass at her, our male population would drop 66%. If someone propositions you, and you aren't interested, the proper response is "No thanks, I'm not interested." Murdering someone is not the best way to "just say no."
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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alex8 said:
In a broader context, research into homophobic attitudes (and homophobic violence) by psychologists such as Karen Franklin may offer some insight, although once again, input from police forces would be useful:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/roots/
(sadly, several of the more interesting links no longer work)

Alex, that's good stuff (much like other reports that I've seen).
Thank you.
 

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DC_DEEP said:
If someone propositions you, and you aren't interested, the proper response is "No thanks, I'm not interested." Murdering someone is not the best way to "just say no."

Of course, but that's a completely logical argument. However, someone who would kill a person solely on the premise that person is Homosexual is clearly a stranger to logic so it's also a futile argument. Thus, in terms of Hate Crimes legislation, logically (to me), hate crime legislation is unlikely to have a significant deterrent effect on those who would perpetrate any crime so defined.

Certainly, I support it from a moral perspective but I would question it's efficacy in really making headway in solving the problem as opposed to treating merely the symptoms, it's like bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted, society needs to address the root causes at source....

I am unsure about the potential risk of legislation based on what's in someones head, it's a slippery slope. I also think there is another element to crime that is usually overlooked.

Consider:

A murders B with motive robbery - A receives life sentence
C murders D because D is homosexual - C receives death sentence

Both sentences confirm that murdering someone is wrong, as it should but it also suggests that the second murder is somehow more wrong and indirectly assigns greater 'value' to the life of person D. It could so very easily be taken by the family of B as a slap in the face.
 

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dong20 said:
Both sentences confirm that murdering someone is wrong, as it should but it also suggests that the second murder is somehow more wrong and indirectly assigns greater 'value' to the life of person D. It could so very easily be taken by the family of B as a slap in the face.

The one thing missing from your equation is that they are NOT assigning greater "value" to the life of D. They are putting more weight on the motive. Person B was killed because of what he possessed, greed has been a motivating factor for crime since mankind has existed.

Person D was killed because of who he was, meaning there was no other motivating factor. Killing someone simply because they are gay, or black, or muslim, or jewish, or any other description which describes a person simply for who they are is vastly different.

As heinous as it may sound, it seems to me that killing someone for profit is less evil than killing someone for no other reason than you dislike who they are. It may be a fine line, but there is a difference.

The difference comes from the motive and circumstances.

I should also note that personally, I'm against the death penalty in all circumstances (I'd prefer to see a life sentence to hard labor without possibility of parole).