Homosexuality And The Stereotypes [discussion]

[Industrialsize]

Because it shouldnt be your sexuality that you are showing, but simply your style.

Like I said before, wear anything you like, what makes you feel good and what you are comfortable.
I just don't think you should link your style to the fact that you're attracted to the same gender.
The two don't correlate and they don't depend on eachother.

Now you're being obtuse. You said you would pass as a "Typical straight" man. I said that someone looking at me would know if I was gay, even from outer space.It has nothing to do with "my style" or what I am wearing. And yet you're telling my my gayness should be "INVISIBLE". Well, I can'' snap my fingers and make my gayness invisible. I was called out as being gay from before puberty.

 

[tms88]

Now you're being obtuse. You said you would pass as a "Typical straight" man. I said that someone looking at me would know if I was gay, even from outer space.It has nothing to do with "my style" or what I am wearing. And yet you're telling my my gayness should be "INVISIBLE". Well, I can'' snap my fingers and make my gayness invisible. I was called out as being gay from before puberty.

I am sorry if it offended you, that was not my intention. You really do not have change one bit! That was never the point, if that wasn't clear.

Also I am not saying that what you refer to as your gayness should be invisible. I was trying to explain that I think nothing besides your sexual preference itself should be referred to as gay. I am curious to what about yourself you mean exactly when you talk about your gayness.

The fact that you are saying you have been called out as being gay, is exactly proving the point I was trying to make.
You happen to be gay, so you're (as I make up from your story) not as bothered by it.

But what if you were not gay? Then it would be a lot more upsetting. Especially since it's basically impossible to proof once people have made up their mind. Look at Shawn Mendes for example. Nothing he will ever say or do will even make people think otherwise. It's like the truth doesn't even matter anymore.

I just think that can be very hurtful. Not because being called gay is an insult. But it's having your integrity and identity being twisted. It must be a very intimidating and worthless feeling to be honest.

 

[malakos]

I want to start a (polite) discussion based on this reply I posted in the Shawn Mendes thread about the toxic thing of using stereotypes to put labels on people.

Why does homosexuality to most people seem to be about so much more than it really is?

What is homosexuality?
The quality or characteristic of being sexually attracted solely to people of one's own sex.​

That's it, that is the only thing that it should be about.

Yet, when you look at society, there is this whole lifestyle thing created around it.
There are all these stereotypes that we as the gay community have created ourselves and are actively using to distinguish ourselves from 'the rest'.

This goes from the way we talk, to body-language, to what music we like, to fashion style and so forth... There is al whole range of things nowadays that are labelled 'gay', and we all rely on it, which is absurd.

A guy wearing pink he must be gay
A guy painting his nails he must be gay
A girl having short hair she must be gay
Etc. Etc. etc. You all know the stereoypes.

Als then about music... Why is it popular for every gay to like music by Britney Spears, Lady Gaga and Beyoncé?

Why are we doing this to ourselves? Why are we creating all these boxes and put everybody including ourselves inside those boxes in order to fit in? We are limiting ourself so much for no reason. Why can't we just be ourselves. Isn't that what we all want in the end?

Why are we going to such lengths to create this 'gay community' and then try so hard to fit in without those boxes?

How many gay people don't feel welcome in the gay community, because of these stereotypes?
I am one of those people. I am not a stereotypical gay, yet I am proud to be gay. However, I would feel completely out of place at a Pride event. Ironic, right?

Isn't Pride supposed to be about being proud of who we are?
Then why is every every pride event such a massive cliche, full of all these stereotypes, all over the world. It ticks all the boxes of what is labelled gay.

Why is it always barely dressed men dryhumping eachother to loud female pop-music, trying so hard to shock and to rebel. That really isn't helping the cause. I think it is part of a very big problem in this gay community. It is trying so hard to be different.

Why don't let all these stereotypes and this whole clownery go and let homosexuality just be what it is really all about. Not about how different 'we' are, but focus on how we are actually the exact same.
Not about the way we dress, the way we talk or what music we should like. All these toxic boxes we put people in.

Simply about loving the same gender.
Nothing more, nothing less.

That's the best thing we can for acceptance and respect from other communities and would also really improve the confidence and self-love of ourselves.

If you look at it again, you should be able to see that the distinction is largely distributed to one term and the other. Homosexuality is a clinical term for sexual disposition, and our usage of the term largely doesn't deviate from this sense. When we talk about Gay stereotypes, lifestyle, culture, and the like, we associate them with the term Gay. I take this at face value. We perceive there being these phenomena, qualities, and values associated with being Gay. My own experiences of Gay circles confirms that there are certain standards and expectations of what "Gay" consists of. We don't have these same associations with the term "homosexual". Hence, for me, being homosexual is simply about my sexual preference of other men and nothing more. And I don't feel the need, as a consequence of being homosexual, to associate myself with the norms of the Gay identity.

 

[keenobserver]

Somewhat related - Officer told to tone down "gayness" settles suit for $10M

 

[Infernal]

I've always been very matter of fact about my sexuality. The other stereotypical stuff doesn't seem to fit with me. Co-workers are shocked to discover I'm gay. It isn't until they find out that I'm married to a man that they get it. I hate the color pink. It's cute on babies and it looks good on some people. Not me. I know shit about fashion. I can tell you if something looks good on you, and I'll be honest if it doesn't, but beyond that, I have no clue. I've never been to a gay pride event. Never been interested. Never been to a bathhouse either. It's just not my thing. In my 20's a lot of my friends spent their time doing drugs, drinking themselves stupid, or jumping from one dick to another. I worked and built a career, then moved away because I couldn't have the life I wanted living there. I'm sure it makes my life sound boring but some of those friends are now dead. The ones that are left are approaching 50 and still doing the same things they did 30 years ago. I just want to do my own thing, and not have everything in my life get associated with my sexuality. There is so much more to me than the fact that I like to suck dick.

 

[51arledge]

I was very late coming out (32-34) but long before that I was flamboyant in high school and college. I basically went back IN the closet after my college boyfriend left town.
When I did come out, I was working in a non-gay-lifestyle kind of job as a contractor but I freely divulged when it seemed appropriate: to family, clients, business associates, etc.
BUT as a trained classical pianist, I always hated Disco and all pop music (but also hate opera!). I would much rather be getting my hands dirty gardening or building something than going some la-di-dah brunch or a drag show. I once had an 8-year old girl say that I couldn't be gay because I was a carpenter!
I have tried to live my life based on my beliefs and interests, not on some stereotype. There are people who live within that "stereotype" who are themselves living lives that are every bit as authentic as my choice. We can all suck, fuck or get fucked and be gay in our own way.
I have known football players who are gay, and BTW, I can prepare the most fabulous brunch you would ever want to eat, with flowers on the table that I grew and arranged, in a house that I designed and built. AND I lift heavy enough weights at the gym, that when someone newly discovered I'm gay, they are generally shocked.
Don't assume that anyone, gay or straight, is predictable!

 

[SpeedThePlow]

Seems to me this is a false choice.

Being gay can't be *just* about who you fall in love with, because we live in a world where that (still!) matters in all sorts of ways it maybe shouldn't, and the experience of being gay affects you in many different ways, not just in who you love or fuck. You may think it's "just who you love", but plenty of bigots still think there's no "just" about that.

But it's not "*a* lifestyle and *everything* that comes with it" because there really is almost nobody who conforms in every way to some stereotypical picture. Besides, I want to run a mile from the "gay lifestyle" idea because it's a homophobic meme used by devious reactionaries as a stick to beat us with. When you think you've met a "typical X" it's usually because you don't really know them well.

Me, I'm not especially "stereotypical". I don't think that's anything to be proud of. It's just how I am. So I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with people who are, (people, I'd add who are often escaping pretty miserable lives and whose comings-out involve wholeheartedly embracing fashions and fads they will probably move on from, but isn't that part of growing up?). And when people say "X is sooo gay cos he wears pink / dances well / wears eyeliner / doesn't play sport" or whatever, I'd prefer to fight the implicit homophobia (the unstated "... and therefore worse less than straight guys who don't do that") rather than pile in with "oh, but we are not all like that", as if I'm somehow a "better guy" cos I'm "less gay".

Whatever we don't have in common (lots) and whatever differences we have (lots), I'd sooner stake my claim to my little corner of the "gay lifestyle" than hold my nose and distance myself from other gay guys, as if my choices were somehow better or more "valid". We get enough of that judgy rubbish from too many straight people already.

 

[concupisys]

i only read the first few posts so bear with me if my comment doesn't flow with the previous one.... i actually can relate to the topic of this discussion because it's something that i began experiencing when i was about 3 years old.... while my family and close friends couldn't have cared less what i acted like, there were plenty of people who pegged me as gay (yes, from age 3) because i liked to sing and dance, didn't like sports, and preferred the company of girls.... it sparked a royal shitstorm of bashing, labelling, assumptions about things i didn't understand.... i was made to feel bad for being myself... just a kid.... but somehow people just always singled me out.... there are future consequences to this sort of thing, and to be honest, so much of all that has come flooding back to my mind and has really messed up my whole personality.... i didn't ask for it.... it's just who i am....

the irony is that i didn't come out till i was 26, and once i did, there was no change to anything in my life except that i could tell people i'm gay with a sense of self assurance.... people i grew up with who came out like literally transformed in to a plethora of gay stereotypes, as though who they were before coming out didn't even exist.... i'm proud that nothing changed about me, and i don't look back on myself before i came out with any regrets or feeling like who i was before somehow wasn't me.... i posted a thread in this section many moons ago called 'is being gay an excuse....' which you might want to take a look at.... the discussion is very similar to this one....

 

[french_toast]

An interesting topic and a genuinely good intention I think, but in my opinion it belongs with all those other "what ifs" that have more to do with utopia than real life.

What if people stopped being racists and xenophobes?
What if people really understood the importance of preserving our environment?
What if gender, sexual orientation, age, skin color and personal beliefs didn't matter?
What if we stopped judging each other?

Yes, it's true that ideally no man or child should be judged or labeled "gay" (or anything else, really) based on their personality, hobbies, mannerisms, likes, style, etc. But I think it's pretty obvious by now that humans feel safer when able to put a label on things.
For better or for worse, we like to "identify" things, and I'm not sure that our society could endure losing all these labels.

Mankind might have had the potential to live free of any labels but they are now anchored too deeply in our society to realistically imagine being rid of them. Haven't studies shown that we are all unconsciously (or consciously for some) racist and have preconceived ideas of who a stranger is solely from their physical appearance? We're afraid of things and people that are different from us, but we're even more afraid of things and people we don't understand. At least, labels are seemingly easy to understand (and on the downside, easy to misunderstand)...

I think you can teach kids to "accept differences" (although I hate that concept). Better yet, teach them to embrace their differences, and hopefully someday we will have a generation of little humans capable of not giving a fuck about these differences. And yet, even if little Mary doesn't care that little Joseph is gay, she'll still identify him as gay.



Anyway, regarding pride and "not fitting in", I think you should just give it a go. It seems like something big on your heart, the fact that you don't fit in with the LGBT community. I sometimes feel the same way, but I've gone to a few pride events and have noticed that there's just all kinds of people there. Sure, people on pride floats are usually the more flamboyant type, but the crowd is very diverse, and being part of this crowd of people sharing this one "Gay" label really gives a sense of belonging amidst the diversity.



@Industrialsize : I just read through the topic, and I think you misunderstood @tms88's message. I don't think he means that you should render your "gayness" invisible. He means that society shouldn't look at your lifestyle, personality, outfit choices, etc. and be able to tell from these that you are gay. He thinks that, even with continuing to be yourself and not changing anything about yourself, the "gay label" should only be linked to your sexual and/or romantic preferences. Hopefully my post made things clearer, and not more confusing.

 

[tms88]

Great to see more people joining in the discussion and shining their light on the subject!

Whatever we don't have in common (lots) and whatever differences we have (lots), I'd sooner stake my claim to my little corner of the "gay lifestyle" than hold my nose and distance myself from other gay guys, as if my choices were somehow better or more "valid". We get enough of that judgy rubbish from too many straight people already.

This is very true actually! Thanks for adding this!

@Industrialsize : I just read through the topic, and I think you misunderstood @tms88's message. I don't think he means that you should render your "gayness" invisible. He means that society shouldn't look at your lifestyle, personality, outfit choices, etc. and be able to tell from these that you are gay. He thinks that, even with continuing to be yourself and not changing anything about yourself, the "gay label" should only be linked to your sexual and/or romantic preferences. Hopefully my post made things clearer, and not more confusing.

You are right, that was indeed exactly what I meant. Sorry if I didn't explain things well enough. (My English still isn't as good to fully express myself sometimes!)

 

[hypolimnas]

I have always just wanted to have a normal life. I came out as gay early on. My parents weren't straight. It was no big deal. I had a discussion about this topic recently when I met up with an old friend who recently came out to me when explaining about his recent divorce. He said he hated the term gay which he didn't feel suited him and preferred to be called a homo. I do think that visibility is important but I don't engage in pride activities because they are not something I feel represent me. Gay politics I'm happy to engage in - as well as being out publicly with my boyfriend. SOME people I know engaged in pride activities (sadly recently hijacked by transactivists here) are exhibitionistic narcissists - who are only about shocking and offending people in public. But I like seeing guys have fun which is good - nothing wrong with a bit of well rehearsed choreography. Pride is important and we all do it our own way ... I'm proud of my politics, relationship, community contribution etc etc. There is a diversity in the 'rainbow community' it is a good thing, I'm happy to live and let live - as well as not participate in things that I am not comfortable with.

 

[Brodie888]

I know a guy who comes from a very conservative background. He only finds men sexually attractive but for religious reasons he only ever had sex with women and is now married with children.

In his mind, he is straight because he only has sex with women and only ever wants to have sex with women. His wife is aware and thinks of her husband's tendency as any other temptation to sin.

 

[tms88]

I know a guy who comes from a very conservative background. He only finds men sexually attractive but for religious reasons he only ever had sex with women and is now married with children.

In his mind, he is straight because he only has sex with women and only ever wants to have sex with women. His wife is aware and thinks of her husband's tendency as any other temptation to sin.

This discussion is not really about religion being the reason someone hide in the closet. But I feel bad for him that he thinks he needs to hide who he is for a community of people who are supposed to be his friends and family. Hope he'll find the strength to tell the truth and finally be himself one day, and that his children will accept it.

 

[joshuaamitai]

homosexuality is a natural buffer created by nature to keep a stability in mass growth population wise.
to keep a balance.
why is it when a birdcage seems to grow overcrowded more and more gay couples seems to form???
pure observation of mine and a guess!
the rest .... what is homosexuality ????
is a hetero male who like a dildo in his ass gay ?
NOOOOOOO, no , pure personal sexual arousal .
all the rest is , how one sexually grows into life .
are two guys who masturbate together gay ??
not at all , they just play games as animals do ... who is the best who has the biggest
i heard a story once of a straight friend who , after a game football / soccer guys just played a game who could shoot the farthest.
are they gay , NO !
i love selfsuck, is a guy who sucks his own cock and shoot his own mouth gay ??
no !
i am 100% gay , but will fuck a girl and like her great pussy when i have a focus point , being her husband who will trigger my sexual drive.
sex is a strange thing, it can not be boxed into one box it has many boxes levels.
sex is a strange thing

 

[dutchbottom68]

Being an obvious and feminine gay guy, I can tell from experience that my appearance and behaviour is considered shameful by many straight people and more and more gay people.. I hear gay guys asking why I have to be sooo gay, that fems like me confirm the stereotypes that they are trying to avoid... Well, I guess there are many different types of gays and I am one of them. I don't even mind what peoples opinion about me is. The way I am is exactly how I need to be, because it's my nature. I also don't mind if people label me gay, because I am gay and I wouldn't want to be any different.
Gay Pride is more than the parade, it is an event where there are Pride walks, exhibitions, sub-group party's, discussion groups, etc.etc.
However most people usually only see the Pride Parade...
Media will always pick the most flamboyant or kinky photographs when they report about this event..
But if you visit the parades , for instance Canal Parade in Amsterdam, you will find that most boats have a great mix of people. Not all of them naked or in drag.
But why is it important that leather gays, fems and Drag Queens are visible in this parade?
Believe it or not, being a leather man, a bear, a fem or drag queen is an important part of peoples lives.. they need to be able to look, behave and feel like this. In every day life these people face a lot of dicrimination and ignorance.. that's why they usually hide or adapt there lifestyle in public.. Gay Pride is the rare moment that everybody can feel free and express themselves in public. To celebrate who they are, rather then to hide it.

 

[tms88]

Being an obvious and feminine gay guy, I can tell from experience that my appearance and behaviour is considered shameful by many straight people and more and more gay people.. I hear gay guys asking why I have to be sooo gay, that fems like me confirm the stereotypes that they are trying to avoid... Well, I guess there are many different types of gays and I am one of them.

Your description of guys asking you 'why you have to be so gay' is exactly why I started this discussion.

The way I see it, there aren't many different types of gays. Just one. The type that likes the same gender.
Everything else is just other preferences, but not your sexual preference. In my opinion, you are gay and feminine, not a feminine gay. Because I don't link them together.

I don't even mind what peoples opinion about me is. The way I am is exactly how I need to be, because it's my nature. I also don't mind if people label me gay, because I am gay and I wouldn't want to be any different.

That's great man! Glad you are able to be yourself and are able to freely express yourself!
I understand being called gay as when you're gay isn't a problem. It's only a problem someone is not, yet is being identified/labelled as one based on people's judgement and stereotypes.

Gay Pride is more than the parade, it is an event where there are Pride walks, exhibitions, sub-group party's, discussion groups, etc.etc.
However most people usually only see the Pride Parade...
Media will always pick the most flamboyant or kinky photographs when they report about this event..
But if you visit the parades , for instance Canal Parade in Amsterdam, you will find that most boats have a great mix of people. Not all of them naked or in drag.

Thanks, youre right! I am seriously considering visiting Pride in Amsterdam this year! I bet you're right about the media picking out the most 'controversial' ones, but ofcourse they're not all like that.

But why is it important that leather gays, fems and Drag Queens are visible in this parade?
Believe it or not, being a leather man, a bear, a fem or drag queen is an important part of peoples lives.. they need to be able to look, behave and feel like this. In every day life these people face a lot of dicrimination and ignorance.. that's why they usually hide or adapt there lifestyle in public.. Gay Pride is the rare moment that everybody can feel free and express themselves in public. To celebrate who they are, rather then to hide it.

I fully support people being able to express themselves and feel free to be themselves without any fear of judgement, discrimination or judgement. I wish that was a reality. It should be reality.

I just don't see it as part of being attrated to the same gender. Straight guys can be fem too. Or be into leather. Why are we making this a strictly gay thing? That is literally the opposite of being inclusive. It's excluding people for no reason. That's just wrong.

 

[tms88]

More people who want to give their thoughts?

 

[NCbear]

I think it’s fairly obvious that the OP, like many gay men who have recently realized their sexuality, is struggling with the tension between “this is how ‘being gay’ is done in society” and “this is who I am/who I want to be/how I want to be perceived as a human being who is many things, only one of which is gay.”

This basic choice is difficult sometimes to navigate, yes. Do you always correct people when they assume you’re straight? Or merely sometimes? Or never? Can you ever avoid being perceived as gay, with all the negativity that perception can bring in different places and cultures? How do you protect yourself and ensure your personal safety? How do you deal with the inevitable frustration with society because so many won’t treat you like just another human being?

To me, this tension, or perhaps set of tensions, is what the OP is wrestling with. It’s difficult because it never stops being an issue, because other people never stop making assumptions and acting on them: We’re human beings with brains hardwired to try to make sense of the world, so we categorize and hang our constant daily impressions on the existing hooks of what we think we already know.

Speaking as someone who’s not always perceived as gay, coming out over and over and over can get psychologically wearying. But I know I owe my ability to come out to those flamboyant queens and fem boys who in some sense don’t have a choice. They paved the way for my freedom to be able to say “I’m gay.” So even though their way of “being gay in public” is very different from mine, I respect their choice, as well as their courage in expressing that choice.

I’ve taken decades to get to the point where I openly show my respect for loud, in-your-face, screamingly gay types—as well as for guys who are still in their closets for various reasons. I could wish more gay men were out, especially famous ones, but I know how difficult being out can be, and I remember picking my way carefully through my own choices as I was making them—so I give other guys exploring their sexuality a free pass, the same that life gave to me, for taking all the time they need to decide how they’ll live their lives.

Now, I do want to be perfectly clear on one point: This doesn’t mean they get a free pass to be a gossipy, mean-spirited, immature jackass who hurts others out of spite, fear, self-loathing, or just plain lack of socialization. No. You have to learn how to be a human being in society.

That said, I understand how those struggles look from the outside, and I can readily extrapolate what must be happening on the inside, because I’ve been there too.

NCbear (who knows each person has an individual journey and very personal lessons to learn along the way—which are no less personal and individual for each person when considered against the backdrop of the other seven billion people on the planet, each of whom has to undergo the same journey)

 

[HorseHung40's]

Stereotypes are just that: Stereotypes.

Over the years, I have met 100% heterosexual ballet danseurs. I have also met NHL stars, who are as queer as picnic baskets, when nobody is looking, some of whom harbor fetishes, that, if discovered, would lead to a suicide.

I have met my share of closeted gay male actors, politicians, religious leaders (that is right, gasp if you want to do so), professional and olympic athletes and rock stars. No one would guess them to be gay; their gaydar is not sensitive enough.

I will not mention names or give hints as to any identities. Don't ask, I won't tell. Oh yes, military leaders too.

 

[deleted1074483]

just to add my two pennies worth!!

having read quite a few posts on this thread, it strikes me that there are several different discussions going on in this thread?

being gay - or homosexual - has nothing to do with how you 'act' in normal life, or how you look, its simply about being sexually attracted to a person of the same sex? How an individual expresses that is then down to their own personal preferences?

stereotypes exist in all of society, primarily because a group of people behave in a certain way and the stereotype is born, and for example being a 'drag queen' doesn't automatically make you 'gay', there are straight, bi and fluid people who drag up these days, its as much an expression of who the person is and what they enjoy.

Gay pride, we have to remember, and those of us over 40 probably do, started as a political movement rather than a 'celebration' and was about visibility, working to get the rights that (most of us) have now, and to be able to be 'who we want to be, to dress how we want to dress'. So back in the late 70s and into the 80s when I came out, they were marches with placards and demanding respect and change in society.

That gay pride is now inclusive of so many strands and has become a celebration and something that people, not just lgbtq+ people, look forward to. As other posters have said, it includes many different types, styles and outward appearances of people, not just the loud and proud ones. I've marched as a gay person, I've marched as someone in the NHS (in the UK) , I've marched as part of a group etc. And it should be a celebration of all we've achieved over the years but it is also still a political movement - showing people we exist in all forms, highlighting that the world still as areas/countries where we're not allowed/are persecuted, and for that you don't need to be out and proud, you can be an ally, a friend or a family member marching with those communities. So to anyone whose not joined in I'd say please do and give it a chance. Here in the UK, in Brighton where I lived and now Birmingham, they are true family affairs and I've taken my 80 yo mother to them before now happily. Yes some more unsavoury stuff happens, but you can avoid that if you wish.

But it is important to be visible, there are still many people even in accepting societies like the UK, where people struggle to come out, and having those who are prepared to be visible gives them a chance to see others and that they can be accepted.

so I think we all just need to be a bit more tolerant of each other, less judgy and more respectful and to be allowed to be ourselves?