Hong Kong And The People's Republic Of China

tripod

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Are all the people of Crimea Russian?

Crimea and Hong Kong aren't parallel situations.

But yes, all Crimeans are currently Russian because they voted to become Russian. China doesn't have a system where referendums can change policies like Russia does. The sort of referendum with which Crimeans voted to become Russian would be useless in Hong Kong.

It sounds like you say people have to accept dictatorship and no right to be against it, as long as its exist.

What I am saying, is that Chinese people should be Chinese.

I understand that the single party system of China will try everything to get Hong Kong in line. The question is, do I, or everyone will have to share this position?

You can have whatever position you want to take... that's not what we are discussing here.

My point is that your desire to change the political system in China is a fool's errand and can only lead to war.

You wanna support Hong Kong's desire to not be Chinese? That ultimately means WWIII.

Is this what you want for Hong Kong? To be the epicenter of WWIII? You'd rather the people of Hong Kong die than accept the fact that they are Chinese?
 

Perados

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What I am saying, is that Chinese people should be Chinese.
that's never been in question.

For me, it looks like the question is, do they have the right to demonstrate, to defend their democracy and freedom? At least that's what comes to my mind when I read the first post from you I quoted.
You can have whatever position you want to take... that's not what we are discussing here.

My point is that your desire to change the political system in China is a fool's errand and can only lead to war.
I wish they would change their system, but I understand that the political/economical leader aren't willing to change the system.

Anyway, this thread isn't about a different system in whole China, but the right of people in Hong Kong to protect what they have.
You wanna support Hong Kong's desire to not be Chinese? That ultimately means WWIII.
China itself was talking about one nation, two systems... that's what I support.
Is this what you want for Hong Kong? To be the epicenter of WWIII? You'd rather the people of Hong Kong die than accept the fact that they are Chinese?
There is a long way from the personal point of view of what rights people should have and a third world war.

To support democracy doesn't has to mean to run a war...
Even IF we would have to face a war, there still is the option to back down. No one forces us to go on war... but till this point we should try different ways to support democracy where ever it shows up - and while doing this, we should improve our own democracy. ;)
 
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Industrialsize

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Crimea and Hong Kong aren't parallel situations.

But yes, all Crimeans are currently Russian because they voted to become Russian. China doesn't have a system where referendums can change policies like Russia does. The sort of referendum with which Crimeans voted to become Russian would be useless in Hong Kong.
Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation
Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation - Wikipedia
 
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Drifterwood

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What I am saying, is that Chinese people should be Chinese.

Almost everyone else is saying that Chinese does not equal China's.

Especially when China is currently in the habit of calling anything it feels like, Chinese. And then doing a Borg assimilation.

How much of the Russian Empire is Chinese?
 
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tripod

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How much of the Russian Empire is Chinese?

You will never find two countries that currently treat each other with as much respect as do China and Russia. I think they did have some territorial disputes that went on into the 21st century but solved them diplomatically.

Russia finally transferred the remaining regions that they captured from the Japanese back to China in 2004.

The Amur River Islands:
the Abagaitu Islet
Yinlong Island
& nearly 50% of Bolshoy Ussuriysky Island and some adjacent islets

Right now there are no currently disputed territories between China and Russia
 

Drifterwood

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You will never find two countries that currently treat each other with as much respect as do China and Russia. I think they did have some territorial disputes that went on into the 21st century but solved them diplomatically.

Russia finally transferred the remaining regions that they captured from the Japanese back to China in 2004.

The Amur River Islands:
the Abagaitu Islet
Yinlong Island
& nearly 50% of Bolshoy Ussuriysky Island and some adjacent islets

Right now there are no currently disputed territories between China and Russia

Right now. But we will see. Russia only handed back invaded territory when the Chinese giant had reawakened. Russia is very much the junior Partner in this relationship and Russia does not have the resources to manage Siberia. So we will see what happens here.
 
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Perados

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There are already thousands of chinese moving to east Russia. This, with the historical context of this area, makes it very likely that China will claim Russian territory. Even more so, when we think about all the resources...
 

tripod

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You both are forgetting the fact that Russia is respectful of China and they are currently serious partners.

I'm sure you both would be giddy with joy to see conflict between Russia and China but the chance of that happening is very small.

Speculation as to a future conflict between China and Russia doesn't make any sense... there is no evidence of tension between the two countries.

Here is a Rand report on the subject:

A Warming Trend in China-Russia Relations

U.S. Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats observed in the intelligence community's most recent threat assessment that “China and Russia are more aligned than at any point since the mid-1950s.

Chinese President Xi Jinping has visited Moscow more than any other capital city since he assumed power. As of August 2018, he and his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin had met 26 times. In June 2018, moreover, Xi gave Putin China's first-ever friendship medal, calling him “my best, most intimate friend.”

War Games Simulation Shows U.S. Forces "Crushed" By China, Russia

RAND Senior Defense Analyst David Ochmanek discussed the simulations on March 7 at the Center for a New American Security (CNAS) in Washington, D.C. The outcomes were disconcerting, to say the least.

“In our games, where we fight China or Russia … blue gets its a** handed to it, not to put too fine a point on it,” Ochmanek said, as reported by Fox News. In the simulations, U.S. forces were assigned the color blue.

“We lost a lot of people, we lose a lot of equipment, we usually fail to achieve our objectives of preventing aggression by the adversary,” Ochmanek added during a panel discussion on the details of the war games.

The simulated combat operations focused on reasonably predictable regional conflicts.

For example, according to the results of RAND’s computer games, if the United States deployed its military forces in the Baltic states in a conflict with Moscow, the outcome would be quick and terrible for the United States.

“Within 48 to 72 hours, Russian forces are able to reach a capital of a Baltic state,” he said. According to the Fox News report, Ochmanek explained that in another theatre, “a Chinese invasion of Taiwan, while a massive military gamble for China, would also pose a huge challenge for U.S. forces in the area.”

The missiles amassed by these two military powers would be turned on the forces of the United States and the devastation would be nearly complete and certainly debilitating.

******************************************************

Perhaps it's time for the West to start respecting China and Russia rather than antagonizing them.

The Hong Kong residents have no protection from the West... their asses are hanging out in the wind.

The Hong Kong protests are putting China on a collision course with the west

How long before China’s tough-guy leader, a man accustomed to getting his way and not averse to using force, loses patience? How much longer can angry People’s Liberation Army generals be restrained? The Hong Kong garrison commander last week chillingly advertised his determination “to protect national sovereignty, security and stability”. And if a harsh military crackdown is ordered, and people begin to die in large numbers, what will Britain and the west do?

But it is also clear that the fury and frustration felt in Beijing is close to boiling point. There have been dozens of official warnings in recent weeks about the necessity of enforcing a harsh policy of “zero tolerance”, and of how the protests challenge “the bottom line of the ‘one country, two systems’ formula”. With Hong Kong at a defiant standstill on Monday, the angry rhetoric took on an even more threatening tone.

China Urges U.S. to Remove ‘Black Hand’ From Hong Kong Protests

There are “signs of foreign forces behind the protests,” Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying told reporters Tuesday in Beijing. “I wonder if these U.S. officials can truthfully answer to the world the role the U.S. has played in recent events in Hong Kong.”

Beijing has long attributed unrest in Hong Kong and other regions under its control to unspecified foreign forces, with the U.S. and the U.K. as the most obvious targets. Those complaints have increased in recent weeks as American and European governments issue statements urging China to respect the rights of Hong Kong protesters critical of the government in the former British colony.

and now the equally salient (and 100% ignored by the West) Chinese Point of View

US using Hong Kong unrest as bargaining chip

Heightened interference by external forces including the US and Europe in fomenting unrest in Hong Kong has encouraged protesters to create more trouble in the city.

These forces claimed that if the amendment to the extradition bill is passed, rights and legal protection to their personnel and institutions based in Hong Kong will be weakened.

At the same time, the US and Europe took advantage of the concern among Hongkongers to play the Hong Kong card, aiming to pressure China. Washington apparently wants to use Hong Kong to strong-arm Beijing.

Many liberals in Hong Kong admire US-style liberalism. However, many of them were disillusioned after US President Donald Trump took office, and then became lost. The violence during protests is an outcome of such confusion. The Hong Kong elites have values consistent with those of the West. When they were motivated and supported by the US, they would participate in the protests more enthusiastically.

Resorting to violence during demonstrations has actually jeopardized Hongkongers' own interest. Hong Kong's society inherently had zero-tolerance for violence, but now people have learnt to tolerate and indulge in it. This signals that social movements in Hong Kong are becoming increasingly radical and populist.

The street movements in Hong Kong have shown a tendency to damage the "One Country, Two systems" policy and hurt prosperity and stability. These movements abused liberalism; they conform neither to traditional British liberalism nor to the striving spirit of Hongkongers, but bring about deterioration of rule of law.

Not only the HKSAR government but also elites in Hong Kong should be vigilant and work jointly to restrain such a tendency. They must be aware that the rational nature of their society is changing.
 

Drifterwood

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You both are forgetting the fact that Russia is respectful of China and they are currently serious partners.

I'm sure you both would be giddy with joy to see conflict between Russia and China but the chance of that happening is very small.

Speculation as to a future conflict between China and Russia doesn't make any sense... there is no evidence of tension between the two countries.

Here is a Rand report on the subject:

A Warming Trend in China-Russia Relations

U.S. Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats observed in the intelligence community's most recent threat assessment that “China and Russia are more aligned than at any point since the mid-1950s.

Chinese President Xi Jinping has visited Moscow more than any other capital city since he assumed power. As of August 2018, he and his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin had met 26 times. In June 2018, moreover, Xi gave Putin China's first-ever friendship medal, calling him “my best, most intimate friend.”

War Games Simulation Shows U.S. Forces "Crushed" By China, Russia

RAND Senior Defense Analyst David Ochmanek discussed the simulations on March 7 at the Center for a New American Security (CNAS) in Washington, D.C. The outcomes were disconcerting, to say the least.

“In our games, where we fight China or Russia … blue gets its a** handed to it, not to put too fine a point on it,” Ochmanek said, as reported by Fox News. In the simulations, U.S. forces were assigned the color blue.

“We lost a lot of people, we lose a lot of equipment, we usually fail to achieve our objectives of preventing aggression by the adversary,” Ochmanek added during a panel discussion on the details of the war games.

The simulated combat operations focused on reasonably predictable regional conflicts.

For example, according to the results of RAND’s computer games, if the United States deployed its military forces in the Baltic states in a conflict with Moscow, the outcome would be quick and terrible for the United States.

“Within 48 to 72 hours, Russian forces are able to reach a capital of a Baltic state,” he said. According to the Fox News report, Ochmanek explained that in another theatre, “a Chinese invasion of Taiwan, while a massive military gamble for China, would also pose a huge challenge for U.S. forces in the area.”

The missiles amassed by these two military powers would be turned on the forces of the United States and the devastation would be nearly complete and certainly debilitating.

******************************************************

Perhaps it's time for the West to start respecting China and Russia rather than antagonizing them.

The Hong Kong residents have no protection from the West... their asses are hanging out in the wind.

The Hong Kong protests are putting China on a collision course with the west

How long before China’s tough-guy leader, a man accustomed to getting his way and not averse to using force, loses patience? How much longer can angry People’s Liberation Army generals be restrained? The Hong Kong garrison commander last week chillingly advertised his determination “to protect national sovereignty, security and stability”. And if a harsh military crackdown is ordered, and people begin to die in large numbers, what will Britain and the west do?

But it is also clear that the fury and frustration felt in Beijing is close to boiling point. There have been dozens of official warnings in recent weeks about the necessity of enforcing a harsh policy of “zero tolerance”, and of how the protests challenge “the bottom line of the ‘one country, two systems’ formula”. With Hong Kong at a defiant standstill on Monday, the angry rhetoric took on an even more threatening tone.

China Urges U.S. to Remove ‘Black Hand’ From Hong Kong Protests

There are “signs of foreign forces behind the protests,” Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying told reporters Tuesday in Beijing. “I wonder if these U.S. officials can truthfully answer to the world the role the U.S. has played in recent events in Hong Kong.”

Beijing has long attributed unrest in Hong Kong and other regions under its control to unspecified foreign forces, with the U.S. and the U.K. as the most obvious targets. Those complaints have increased in recent weeks as American and European governments issue statements urging China to respect the rights of Hong Kong protesters critical of the government in the former British colony.

and now the equally salient (and 100% ignored by the West) Chinese Point of View

US using Hong Kong unrest as bargaining chip

Heightened interference by external forces including the US and Europe in fomenting unrest in Hong Kong has encouraged protesters to create more trouble in the city.

These forces claimed that if the amendment to the extradition bill is passed, rights and legal protection to their personnel and institutions based in Hong Kong will be weakened.

At the same time, the US and Europe took advantage of the concern among Hongkongers to play the Hong Kong card, aiming to pressure China. Washington apparently wants to use Hong Kong to strong-arm Beijing.

Many liberals in Hong Kong admire US-style liberalism. However, many of them were disillusioned after US President Donald Trump took office, and then became lost. The violence during protests is an outcome of such confusion. The Hong Kong elites have values consistent with those of the West. When they were motivated and supported by the US, they would participate in the protests more enthusiastically.

Resorting to violence during demonstrations has actually jeopardized Hongkongers' own interest. Hong Kong's society inherently had zero-tolerance for violence, but now people have learnt to tolerate and indulge in it. This signals that social movements in Hong Kong are becoming increasingly radical and populist.

The street movements in Hong Kong have shown a tendency to damage the "One Country, Two systems" policy and hurt prosperity and stability. These movements abused liberalism; they conform neither to traditional British liberalism nor to the striving spirit of Hongkongers, but bring about deterioration of rule of law.

Not only the HKSAR government but also elites in Hong Kong should be vigilant and work jointly to restrain such a tendency. They must be aware that the rational nature of their society is changing.

I can assure you that I am not hoping for any conflict between anyone.

I am simply expressing the view that both Russia and China are Empire constructs and that they have disputed territory, Asian territory, and or regions that both have an interest in, again Far East Asian.

You see Russia as respectful, I see them as compliant to a much bigger neighbour.
 

Jason

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Right now UK universities are running pre-sessional English language courses, where students from all over the world meet on a UK campus to improve their English. And right now UK universities are in a state of panic over a new problem: the level of animosity between Hong Kong and Mainland Chinese students.

In general these students will not speak to one another. However there are also incidents of fights, and incidents which come appear to be racism. This is a new phenomenon. To a considerable extent students from Taiwan are siding with those from Hong Kong, and to a lesser extent most from E and SE Asia.

We seem to have a problem that has been imported with the students. No one knows a parallel. Students of India and Pakistan tend not to like one another but they can get on. Students of Israel and Arab nations get along fine. There have been isolated incidents in the past, say Serbs and Croats, but these have seemed relatively minor and in effect between two students The new issue seems to be every student.

It may be that a conclusion is that there is just no way that Hong Kong is going to accept a tightening of Chinese rule. Indeed it seems that just about everyone in HK would like to see it independent (much as Singapore is independent).
 
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798686

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Hong Kong is part of China. Britain had NO FUCKING RIGHT to seize it as a colonial possession.

ENGLAND WAS SMUGGLING OPIUM INTO CHINA ILLEGALLY. When China objected... we got the Opium Wars.

England INVADED & OCCUPIED China so that the roughly 1,400 tons of opium a year they were selling inside China could continue unabated.

Hong Kong was a part of China since 243 BCE, and it remained almost constantly under Chinese control for the next 2,000 years...

... until Britain decided it wanted to become the drug dealer to the world. England used it's Royal Navy and Marines to invade and occupy China. Ceding Hong Kong was the blood soaked prize with which England walked away with (along with five Chinese ports which allowed England to offload it's OPIUM DRUGS)

and now the Western world wants to criticize China for their efforts to TAKE BACK WHAT IS THEIRS.

FUCK ENGLAND and their colonialism. Colonialism is BAD people.

When you criticize China for doing what is WITHIN THEIR RIGHTS, you support the visages of Colonialism while simultaneously feeding it's hungry ghost.
Why is oppressing Hong Kong within China's rights?

You're incorrect about trade/contraband. China pretty much wasn't letting anything in - from Britain or anywhere else. So anything had to be 'smuggled' in, Opium or not.

You mention the citizens of Hong Kong being forced to be under British rule - are you aware of how many there were who actually lived there, when Britain set it up as a small trading post?!
 
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Jason

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National self-determination is a fundamental Western value. At the end of the 99 year lease of Hong Kong there is a view that independence for Hong Kong would have been correct. However PRC wouldn't have accepted that and one nation, two systems did seem a reasonable compromise.

Right now I cannot see any outcome that will satisfy the people of HK short of full independence. And I cannot see that happening.
 
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798686

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Again, think Britain is ideally placed to calm things down and broker a cessation of hostilities. We might as well make ourselves useful.

Tbh, we could do with a cordial/cooperative relationship with both - and we could also do with Hong Kong / China getting along a bit better.

Re: China - the UK needs to build a respectful but honest relationship with China. We're interested in a trading relationship, but we also need to make sure we tread a careful line between them and the US, and not compromise our values for either.

Tbh... UK is fairly well placed to mediate between US and China, much as we used to between US and Europe. ;)

We do need Brexit sorted and out the way tho. It's getting in the way of new opportunities now...
 
D

deleted15807

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I have a good friend who lives in Hong Kong. She does not comment at all online on what's happening. Period. Who is listening she can't be sure. It's a great beautiful city but it is on the precipice of a big departure from the last 150 years. The People's Republic of China will never let it function as the British did for 156 years. Never. The tanks will roll soon. Xi has little choice if he is to exert the kind of control he needs to suppress the will of the Hong Kong citizens. I hope I'm wrong.
 

Jason

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I have a good friend who lives in Hong Kong. She does not comment at all online on what's happening. Period. Who is listening she can't be sure. It's a great beautiful city but it is on the precipice of a big departure from the last 150 years. The People's Republic of China will never let it function as the British did for 156 years. Never. The tanks will roll soon. Xi has little choice if he is to exert the kind of control he needs to suppress the will of the Hong Kong citizens. I hope I'm wrong.

I fear you may well be right.

There's suddenly discussion in the UK around the British (Overseas) Passports that many Hong Kong people have. These do not give right of residence in UK and have quite a lot of restrictions associated with them. They were introduced in 1997 and fell in with EU requirements.

What is now being suggested is that from 1st Nov these passports could be converted into standard British passports, righting the 1997 wrong which was caused by the EU. We are looking at around a million passports (compared with over 7m HongKongers). This would give security to these HongKongers (who could emigrate if China clamped down) and also give them the same rights of UK diplomatic protection as UK nationals anywhere in the world.

It's the first time I've heard suggested something the West could actually do in the wake of the mess in Hong Kong.
 
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Perados

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I fear you may well be right.

There's suddenly discussion in the UK around the British (Overseas) Passports that many Hong Kong people have. These do not give right of residence in UK and have quite a lot of restrictions associated with them. They were introduced in 1997 and fell in with EU requirements.

What is now being suggested is that from 1st Nov these passports could be converted into standard British passports, righting the 1997 wrong which was caused by the EU. We are looking at around a million passports (compared with over 7m HongKongers). This would give security to these HongKongers (who could emigrate if China clamped down) and also give them the same rights of UK diplomatic protection as UK nationals anywhere in the world.

It's the first time I've heard suggested something the West could actually do in the wake of the mess in Hong Kong.
The question is, will post-Brexit stress its relations with the largest economy for the people in Hong Kong...
 

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The question is, will post-Brexit stress its relations with the largest economy for the people in Hong Kong...

I think that the protesters should stop now. I don't think that they have any more to gain at this point. I can't see that Mrs. Lam will stay in position, but we will see. I think for everyone's benefit, she should step down. It would be a very dark day to see Hong Kongers killed in the streets by Chinese forces.
 

Perados

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I think that the protesters should stop now. I don't think that they have any more to gain at this point. I can't see that Mrs. Lam will stay in position, but we will see. I think for everyone's benefit, she should step down. It would be a very dark day to see Hong Kongers killed in the streets by Chinese forces.
30 years after the protests at Tian' anmen it would be a remarkable coincidence.

I'm torn between the right to protest and say what you want, the strong will to resist and the logic that it would be a massacre without any change just like 30 years ago.

The question is, should hong Kong obey and not even try?