Hopefully, that was the hardest one...

[zzorus]

Originally posted by alwaysthere@Mar 4 2005, 07:15 PM
Last night, my brother and I were watching tv.
Now my brother really isn't anything like me.....

PS: sorry for the LONG post.

[post=288218]Quoted post[/post]​

Firstly, don't apologize. It is a very thoughtful and sensitive post, and I bet it has been good for you to write the details at length.

Your brother sounds a very angry person, and it seems that he is very disappointed in himself.
However, I think a good sign is the way he treated you last night-giving you a hug I mean-and in the morning.

Don't be scared by crying in such a situation: it showed your brother that his attitudes do affect people. Maybe it was the first time that he has experienced some empathy.
You have changed him by the way: he has said he won't talk in his prejudiced way around you. And then this may not be around other people either: maybe he will stop thinking like this altogther. See, the Power of One!

But yes, I do hope your future coming out experiences will be gentler.

All the best to you from

zzorus

 

[Freddie53]

Our thoughts are with you. I see you are almoght 18. I think I would wait until my 18th birthday. Not that actual day but withiin the month. At that point your parents can't force you to go through any "treatment" that you don't want to go through. If you were 15, I would go ahead and tell them.

About your brother. There is a good chance he is gay. All this anti gay crap may be a cover up for the real situation. Happens all the time.

Just watch and be there for him if he need to come out as well.

I hope and pray that your parents will accept you unconditionallly.

Freddie

Originally posted by alwaysthere@Mar 4 2005, 03:15 AM
Last night, my brother and I were watching tv.
Now my brother really isn't anything like me. He's a rather prejudice person. He doesn't really like black people, he doesn't like Chinese people, he dislikes Asian Indians, he can be a bit sexist at times, and yeah... he doesn't like gay people... unless they're hot lesbians, but y'know.
Anyway, he was talking on the phone for a little bit, and he was talking to his friend about how he hates this guy at his work (he works at my dad's shop right now), and that he wanted to slash the guy's tires before he left work, and that way, the guy would come out at night, and he wouldn't be able to go anywhere. My brother gets a kick out of things like that. And then he said, and he was joking about this, that he wanted to get a hit-man to kill the guy.
I was just thinking to myself as he was on the phone... I really don't like the way my brother thinks sometimes. Like he does a lot of stuff I don't like... he'll pass people who drive slow on the road, but he doesn't just pass, he has to finger them as he passes them. He usually uses the word "nigger" when referring to black people. He uses the word "chink" when referring to Chinese people. He uses the word "fag" when referring to gay people, and he'll also just use that as an insult to people. Not only that, but he was once caught shop-lifting, he use to change the grades on his report card with a computer so as not to disappoint our parents. He's just done a lot of stuff that I don't think is right.
So when he got off the phone, I asked him why he's talking about slashing some guy's tires, and he said, "Oh, I don't like him!". I just said, "K, why don't you just nevermind him. Don't think about him. It's better to spend your time caring about things that you do like. You don't have to go slashing his tires, or saying you wanna hire a hit man to kill him..."...
I went on to say to him that I don't like the way he thinks sometimes. Because I hate it when people think like that. I hate it when people act on their feelings of hatred, especially in ways that can really hurt people. And he said things about how he thinks that the way it is, you have to stand up for yourself, he thinks some people deserve to be treated like that... and I said, "Yeah, people like you, who would treat somebody like that in the first place.".
I asked him how he would feel if somebody that hated him went and slashed his tires. And his response was, "Oh, they wouldn't do that."... which I was completely lost with. I asked why, and he said, "Because I'd slit their throat if they did that.". I just said, ok, then if you would want to slit their throat if they did that to you, shouldn't that give you an idea of why you shouldn't do it to other people. He didn't care, and he just said, "What do I care? It's not me.".... I argued with him for a long time, and I brought up his racism, and how he says he doesn't like blacks. I said people who think like that are viewed as idiots and bad people in history... look at people like Martin Luther King Jr. who fought AGAINST people who think like that, he's seen as one of the great heroes of the 20th century. People know this, they know racism is bad, they know prejudice in general is bad... and yet people still continue to do it.
My brother just thought "The world is never gonna change. There's always gonna people like that.", and I said, "The world has changed. Back in the 60s, racism was rampant, blacks couldn't vote is a lot of place, hate crimes were rampant, black people weren't respected... and one man changed all that. He fought for freedom, and today, racism is way lower that it was back in that time.
My brother didn't seem to think my point of view was reasonable. He said, "Ok, you're one person. One person isn't gonna make a difference." (yeah, he just kept spewing these things out&#33... I told him, "Well, yes, one person can make a difference. Martin Luther King, one person, made a hell of a difference. And I'm definitely not the only one who thinks like this."... at this, he said, "Yeah, well, I'd say about 80 percent of the population thinks the way I do.". I knew this was wrong. If you've ever heard the saying "20 60 20", which means 20% of people are positive leaders, 20% of people are negative leaders, and 60% are followers. But I didn't wanna get into that... I said, "Yeah, I know...", and he said, "Yeah, well, I'm glad I'm in the majority.". I asked, "What's wrong with being a minority?". He said nothing, and I just went silent for a little bit. I really didn't like this. I really don't like people who think like that. I've known for a while that I didn't like the kind of person my brother was. He's nice as a brother, but as a person, I don't like him.

I remember why, but at one point, I just started to cry. I started thinking about the fact that I'm bisexual, and I knew how my brother didn't like gay people. I knew it was people like him who killed Matthew Sheppard, and anytime I think about Matthew Sheppard, I get sad.
I didn't want to cry in front of him, but I couldn't help it. He asked what I was crying about, and I said that I didn't know. He asked what it was that he's done that I don't like, because obviously he must have done something for me to say this stuff to him. I told him that I don't like how he's racist, I don't like how he's so prejudice. I don't like how he treats people sometimes. I don't like how there's so much hate in this world.
Eventually, he asked what he had done to me, because he thought he had to have done something to me, otherwise I wouldn't be crying about it. I DID feel that he had done something to me, because everytime I heard him call someone a "fag", it hurt me. So I just said, "Yeah... I'm bisexual, and I don't like how you think about gay people.".
I really didn't have any idea how he would react to this.
Surprisingly, he took it well. He was just like, "Oh... so you like both girls and guys?"... I said yeah, and he just asked how long I'd felt this way, and I told him pretty much since I was born, which I guess is kind of a lie, because I really only realised it when I was like 11.
It kind of ended with him saying to me that I doesn't think he'll ever change. He'll always be prejudice and everything, but he said that if it bothers me, then he just won't talk about things like that around me.
I figured this was probably the best I was gonna get.

After that, he gave me a hug, said goodnight, and went upstairs to watch tv.

I thought about it afterwards, and that really wasn't the way I wanted to tell him, because I was crying a lot, and I didn't want to make him think I'm a sissy or something, because I'm not. I would have preferred to do it another way, when I was a little more composed, but I just kind of fell into it. Which is probably good actually, because I don't think I would have had the nerve to do it any other way... I just don't like crying in front of people.

Today was alright. I don't think I'll have any problems with him knowing. He said good morning to me this morning, and we watched The Apprentice together tonight like we always do, so I guess everything's ok. But, I just hope that's the hardest it gets, because I do NOT want to have to go through another coming out experience like that. Hopefully, I'll never be crying again when I do it.


So two people know that I'm bi now. A friend of mine at school, and my brother. I'm worried about telling my parents, because 1)I don't even like talking about girls with them, let alone telling them I wanna have sex with guys... talk about embarrassing. 2)I'm worried they'll start the whole "Was it my fault..." thing, which I really don't want. 3) I'm worried I'll disappoint my mom, because she wants grandchildren and everything, and if I'm gonna be guys and stuff, there's a lower chance of that happening.
I know they probably won't really have a problem with the idea of me being gay (well, part gay), but I just don't really want them to know... I think it would probably be a big shock to them. I've told them about girls I like and stuff, and I've gone with a girl before, so they're probably thinking "No, he could never be gay..."... oi. It's tough.

I just wish homosexuality wasn't such a big deal.


PS: sorry for the LONG post.

[post=288218]Quoted post[/post]​

 

[txquis]

(omg..posters...erase the message before you reply )

Hey, man.
I understand your story.
It is fear and anger and (forgive me) a certain amount of ignorance causing those feelings.

You are the brave one, for sure, to tell him.
People who are totally comfortable and happy with themselves, usually
dont have a big problem with others.
Best of luck

 

[D_Barbi_Queue]

Kudos to you, Always! Hopefully your parents will be easier to break the news to and your brother will "grow up" some day.

And yes people, just use the Add Reply button at the bottom. It makes for a lot less scrolling. :spank:

 

[Altairion]

Congrats on sharing your feelings with your brother dude. Given time, your brother might learn how to accept people for who they are. It sounds like you took a big risk in telling somone who has placed themself on the extreme opposite side of the spectrum whether he was your brother or not, but from here out it will hopefully be easier for you to tell others.

 

[Dr Rock]

heh. sounds like your brother, like a lot of vocal bigots, talks a good game but doesn't actually have any courage in his supposed "convictions." I doubt he'd ever have the nerve to call a black guy a nigger to his face, for example. people who drone on constantly about how much they hate this or that minority or whatever are usually just covering their own insecurities with an outside image that they perceive as threatening. it's easier to declaim or devise faults and inadequacies in other people, than to face up to your own.

so I'd say don't think TOO harshly of him - sure he's an obnoxious twit, but he's only behaving like that because he's very scared and/or unhappy about something, probably himself. it's clear from the way he reacted to the issue of your sexuality that his projected image is pretty shallow, and he probably stands a good chance of becoming a worthwhile human being if he can get over himself.

 

[woskxn]

congrats..thats tough to do.
I came out to my brother, about 3 months back, he is the only one that knows. I never fond that to be a big deal since I knew he would be ok with it. (even though he was very shocked because I didn't have any of the qualities that people think gay people have)

 

[Royal_T]

Originally posted by alwaysthere@Mar 4 2005, 04:15 AM
I just wish homosexuality wasn't such a big deal.

[post=288218]Quoted post[/post]​

I couldnt agree more.

 

[Lex]

We are socialized to fear all that is different than we are. It takes a truly evolved mentality to live without judgment of others and be comfortable enough to enjoy the uniqueness of our differences without being intimidated by them. Congrats on your bold move and hopefully, your relevation will help your brother.

 

[Pene_Negro_Grande]

Very touching story...Hopefully your brother will learn acceptance through you...Out of curiousity - how old is your brother and where do you think he learned his views of minorities from...I only say that because I think racism is a learned behavior...Your brother seems to have some real issues he needs to take care of...Good luck and I hope it gets better for you...You are pretty brave to stand up for your beliefs and convictions...

 

[madame_zora]

Alwaysthere, I join the others in applauding you in coming out to your brother, even with the emotion injected. We are all emotional beings, those who attempt to hide it make themselves weaker in the longrun. Racism and hatred of most kinds is largely based in fear- fear of the unknown, fear of that which is different- and coupled with ego. For someone with a low sense of self esteem, it can be very gratifying to belong to the "approved group" in a given situation. Your brother obviously feels horrible about himself or he would not need to constantly build himself up by stepping on the backs of others. I feel sorry for people like this, they are sick and weak. Perhaps with enough time, he will outgrow his childish ways and become a real man. The fact the he agreed not to talk disrespectfully to you is at least a good sign.

Someone on here a few months ago (for the life of me, I can't remember who) said something to the effect of how he felt that as a gay man, it was his job to bring enlightenment to the world. I think this is certainly as good a statement as I could think of. We all learn so much more from those who are different from us than those who are the same. People who are like us give us comfort, but those who are different teach us to stretch our boundaries and grow in humanity. No doubt, you will be a big help to your brother.

 

[Lex]

Madame Zora--
When are you goning to run for President or something?
People like you make being "different" SO much easier (and FUN)

*hugs*

 

[zzorus]

Originally posted by alwaysthere@Mar 7 2005, 05:23 PM
"how old is your brother and where do you think he learned his views of minorities from..."

He's 19.

I've asked myself that before. He certainly didn't learn it from our parents, because they aren't like that.

[post=288880]Quoted post[/post]​

I too wondered about your brother's age-and he is younger than what I had expected. So I think that you really have a chance to make a difference to him, by standing up to him, even though you were crying. I'm sure you have already made a difference; maybe he will turn out to be a nice person eventually. If he does, I think it will in large part be due to you.

Once again, all the best to you,

zzorus

 

[taven]

Originally posted by madame_zora@Mar 7 2005, 12:44 AM
Alwaysthere, I join the others in applauding you in coming out to your brother, even with the emotion injected. We are all emotional beings, those who attempt to hide it make themselves weaker in the longrun. Racism and hatred of most kinds is largely based in fear- fear of the unknown, fear of that which is different- and coupled with ego. For someone with a low sense of self esteem, it can be very gratifying to belong to the "approved group" in a given situation. Your brother obviously feels horrible about himself or he would not need to constantly build himself up by stepping on the backs of others. I feel sorry for people like this, they are sick and weak. Perhaps with enough time, he will outgrow his childish ways and become a real man. The fact the he agreed not to talk disrespectfully to you is at least a good sign.

Someone on here a few months ago (for the life of me, I can't remember who) said something to the effect of how he felt that as a gay man, it was his job to bring enlightenment to the world. I think this is certainly as good a statement as I could think of. We all learn so much more from those who are different from us than those who are the same. People who are like us give us comfort, but those who are different teach us to stretch our boundaries and grow in humanity. No doubt, you will be a big help to your brother.

[post=288893]Quoted post[/post]​

Mme. Z,
As always I'm impressed with your thought processes and your ability to exprss them. I'm particularly drawn to your "comfort" vs "stretch" statement. As Queequeg said, "True! True!"

 

[madame_zora]

Aww, thanks Taven and Lexman, you guys are so awesome. This place is my second family and I really care that we all learn to love each other in our own ways. These coming out stories touch me deeply because I remember the fear in my daughter's eyes when she came out to me- and she had ME as a parent! She had known me her whole life and was still afraid of rejection about being gay, so I can only imagine what many others must go through. I really wish I could remember who said the thing about gays bringing enlightenment, because it made me cry at the time.

The pastor of my old church said "Small things done with great love will change the world". I think coming out to a bigoted person is a big thing done with great love, the rest should be much easier.

 

[Lex]

No problem man--we put the S in Support around here!

 

[jonb]

Actually, the 20 60 20 rule means that 20% will conform, 20% will dissent, and 60% will be fence sitters.

It can be difficult to change his mind. I'm trying to compile a list of homophobic questions, but a good start might be to point him to a study published a couple years back in the Journal of Abnormal Psychology. Basically, some University of Georgia psychologists asked a bunch of heterosexual men about their feelings wrt homosexuality and exposed them to gay porn.

66% of nonhomophobic men showed no significant tumescence, compared to only 20% of homophobic men. Only 24% of nonhomophobic men showed obvious tumescence, compared to 54% of homophobic men.

As a rule, psychoanalytic theories explain homophobia as a type of repressed homosexuality. For once apparently psychoanalysis is worth something.

 

[jonb]

Edited.

 

[Pene_Negro_Grande]

Originally posted by madame_zora@Mar 7 2005, 07:11 PM
Aww, thanks Taven and Lexman, you guys are so awesome. This place is my second family and I really care that we all learn to love each other in our own ways. These coming out stories touch me deeply because I remember the fear in my daughter's eyes when she came out to me- and she had ME as a parent! She had known me her whole life and was still afraid of rejection about being gay, so I can only imagine what many others must go through. I really wish I could remember who said the thing about gays bringing enlightenment, because it made me cry at the time.

The pastor of my old church said "Small things done with great love will change the world". I think coming out to a bigoted person is a big thing done with great love, the rest should be much easier.

[post=289034]Quoted post[/post]​

I third the sentiment that lexman and taven said madame_zora....