9cyclops9: [quote author=Valkyrie link=board=women;num=1064768529;start=20#39 date=10/09/03 at 09:19:15]Some additional comments on the subject of abstaining from sex until you're married. I hear what you say and I can understand the issue about religious beliefs - in my opinion that would be probably the most common reason for waiting. But, I do have issues even with this definition - as it's commonly applied (at least in the US).
Please see the following only as a general discussion - the comments are not aimed at any particular person in this thread, or otherwise any particular person defined.
For once - I have a hard time understanding how one can define sex as too intimate or too valuable to share with someone else than your husband/wife - and at the same time explore many venues of sexuality with someone who is "only" a boy-/girlfriend - oral sex, heavy petting, kissing, caressing, getting undressed together etc.
What is less intimate with those activities - other than the fact that the hymen of the woman is not broken and thus her physical virginity preserved? Or are those activities not seen as sex in the proper definition? In that case why, as they are usually considered an integral part of most people's sex life?
What would the reaction be to an activity such as anal sex? This has been used, and is to my knowledge in some cultures still used, as a way of having sex before marriage but still preserving the woman's physical virginity? Is this also less sex than penetrating sex involving the vagina and the penis?
To me it sounds more than a bit hypocritical to say that you will abstain from sex before marriage, and at the same time explore all (or close to all) avenues of sexuality but penetrating vaginal sex.
Again - take the same activities defined above - oral sex, kissing, heavy petting, caressing, getting undressed together - and put them in the context of cheating, i.e. the same activities taking place outside of marriage, with someone who is not your husband/wife. If the definition is that these activities are not sex - as is the implied definition since they are OK before marriage (under the assumption "abstaining from sex before marriage") - wouldn't they also be seen as "not cheating" when performed with someone outside of the marriage?
My gut feeling is that most people would define most (if not all) of the above activities as cheating and breaking the vow of fidelity between husband/wife. Why the double standard - the activity would be OK before marriage, even when abstaining from sex before you're married, but the same activity performed with someone else than your husband/wife would be considered cheating?
Maybe it's a fruitless discussion - but as outlined above I have a hard time understanding why there is such a double standard... To me it's more about control over people's sexuality than about "common sense" or enjoying life. Control in particular over women's sexuality as it's usually (but not always) the woman's virginity who is implied when abstaining from sex before marriage. This is usually the case as the woman's virginity is the only one even remotely possible to verify (even if also this can be hard) - for a man there is no possibility to physically verify if he is indeed a "virgin" or not.
As an entirely different issue (but still relevant to this discussion). It is only in cultures where inheritance and name is related to the male side of the family that there is this focus on preserving a woman's virginity until marriage. Likely because of the "need" to ensure that the offspring born to a woman is fathered only by her legal husband - no one else. With preserving a woman's virginity until the day she is married, it is also implied that the man can rest assured that his semen has impregnated her and that the offspring is indeed his.
And for the record - I'm not advocating getting out and having sex with just anyone you see - that's not the issue. But if you are in a long term relationship, you feel comfortable with the other person, you have sexual feelings for the other person, you're exploring other sexual avenues with this person and you want to have penetrating sex with this person - why let religion/societal expectations/history/other issues dictate what you can and cannot do?
/Val[/quote]
Well, although this wasn't particularly aimed at anyone, I was the only one to say anything about sex being too intimate to share with anyone but your spouse. But I don't know where you got all the stuff about exploring everything but vaginal penetration. I, for one, don't do anything except kiss. And it seems to me that a kiss is more a sign of affection than an actual sexual act. It's a way of saying "I love you." And just because kissing is seen as an integral part of many people's sex lives doesn't mean it is an act of sex. Love is also an integral part of many people's sex lives, and it isn't seen as an act of sex.
And as for whose virginity is implied when we talk about saving ourselves for marriage, as far as the Christian viewpoint goes, both the man and the woman are expected to remain virgins until marrigage.
And as to why I let my religion dictate what I do and do not do: if I were to say that one of the commandments in the Bible were not applicable to me, then I might as well throw out the whole thing. It's all or none at all as far as I'm concerned. Not to say that I never mess up. But I really try not to.
Yes, my religion is probably the only reason I have to abstain from sex, but I do take my faith very seriously. Culture and society have nothing to do with it. If I were to go by cultural and societal expectations, I would have lost my virginity a long time ago.
John
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