D_Fiona_Farvel
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*applause* To paraphrase Shirley Chisolm, you are "telling it like it really is." *applause*
House wants to apologize for slavery, how much do u know?
- Thread starter marleyisalegend
- Start date
Notaguru2
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I'm going to do this without a reference to see how far off I am;
1. How was Christopher Columbus introduced to slavery?
Hint: he didn't have to go to America to find it.
Slavery has been a part of humanity since before the beginning of "time".
2. How many blacks were transported from Africa to America between the 16th and 19th century?
Who sold them? Who shipped them? That's the question to ask. Where there are sellers, there are buyers.
3. What were the 3 points of this particular triangular slave trade?
Hint: It was important to bar rooms in London where the early Royal Society met.
I plea dunce on this point.
4. What year did the transatlantic slave trade of Africans to America begin?
Hint: Isaac Newton wasn't born yet.
I plea dunce on this point as well.
5. How did the practice of slavery effect the US economy?
Hint: It probably didn't hurt it.:wink:
It depends on who you ask. The North certainly thought the South was making money hand over fist.
6. How did the abolishment of slavery affect the US economy?
Hint: It probably hurt it.
We'll never know. The civil war lasted 3 years longer than anyone could've imagined. The country (especially the South) was financially destroyed. The war took a toll on the country.
7. How has diaspora affected black genealogy?
Hint: This is a really easy fucking question.
There's a white man/woman in your family somewhere?
8. Name one historically significant accomplishment of black slaves.
*Hint, Jesus H. Christ wasn't white.
Hey! George Washington Carver invented peanut butter! =) He also taught slaves about the value of crop rotation.
9. Define 'institutional racism'.
Hint: It's a literal term, no hidden meanings.
A term coined to reflect policies and procedures adopted by companies/institutions that disadvantage people of color.
10. Explain the modern "cycle" of poverty in the US.
*Hint, this affects every poor group, not just blacks.
There is little poverty in this country. If you want to see poverty, take a trip to the other side of the lake.
11. What southern high school(s) still holds segregated proms; a black prom and a white prom?
Im not sure, but its probably in Forsythe County? (I'm a GA native)
12. LOTS of black women have degrees, what % of them have management/ceo/etc.. positions in the US?
A degree doesn't qualify you. But I do know of one that was promoted above my Dad in a large Utility Company. I congratulate her.
13. What percentage of black children grow up without a father?
A lot. Why do you think that is?
14. What's the fundemental difference between Dr. Martin Luther King and Malcolm X?
Hint: You can answer this with one sentence, just compare their personas.
King: Civil right activist, equal rights for all, inspirational
X: Spokesman for Nation of Islam, the nucleus of "Black Power", but not comparable to King on any level.
15. How are those folks down in New Orleans doing? Are they back on their feet yet?
Hint: Doing a Yahoo News or Google News search for 'Hurricane Katrina' or 'New Orleans' will give u recent update.
You can't depend on the government for everything. Sometimes, you have to take charge and control of your own life. White people lived there too, yanno.
16. Who was the first black candidate for President in the US?
Hint: SHE was also the first female to seek the Dem. nomination. 1972\
Chisholm
17. In 2008 what % of Americans admitted that race affects their vote?
90?
18. Name atleast one anti-black/white supremacist group OTHER THAN THE KKK.
Black Panthers, Nation of Yahweh
19. Name one advantage of Affirmative Action.
Is there one? A system that forces employers to hire people because of the color of their skin is not an advantage.
20. Name one disadvantage of Affirmative Action.
Its really "institutional racism" if you think about it.
Ok, those are my answers. If some of my answers seemed tongue in cheek, they were. There is no malice intended by any of my answers. I'm simply not an expert in black history. Did I win? =)
1. How was Christopher Columbus introduced to slavery?
Hint: he didn't have to go to America to find it.
Slavery has been a part of humanity since before the beginning of "time".
2. How many blacks were transported from Africa to America between the 16th and 19th century?
Who sold them? Who shipped them? That's the question to ask. Where there are sellers, there are buyers.
3. What were the 3 points of this particular triangular slave trade?
Hint: It was important to bar rooms in London where the early Royal Society met.
I plea dunce on this point.
4. What year did the transatlantic slave trade of Africans to America begin?
Hint: Isaac Newton wasn't born yet.
I plea dunce on this point as well.
5. How did the practice of slavery effect the US economy?
Hint: It probably didn't hurt it.:wink:
It depends on who you ask. The North certainly thought the South was making money hand over fist.
6. How did the abolishment of slavery affect the US economy?
Hint: It probably hurt it.
We'll never know. The civil war lasted 3 years longer than anyone could've imagined. The country (especially the South) was financially destroyed. The war took a toll on the country.
7. How has diaspora affected black genealogy?
Hint: This is a really easy fucking question.
There's a white man/woman in your family somewhere?
8. Name one historically significant accomplishment of black slaves.
*Hint, Jesus H. Christ wasn't white.
Hey! George Washington Carver invented peanut butter! =) He also taught slaves about the value of crop rotation.
9. Define 'institutional racism'.
Hint: It's a literal term, no hidden meanings.
A term coined to reflect policies and procedures adopted by companies/institutions that disadvantage people of color.
10. Explain the modern "cycle" of poverty in the US.
*Hint, this affects every poor group, not just blacks.
There is little poverty in this country. If you want to see poverty, take a trip to the other side of the lake.
11. What southern high school(s) still holds segregated proms; a black prom and a white prom?
Im not sure, but its probably in Forsythe County? (I'm a GA native)
12. LOTS of black women have degrees, what % of them have management/ceo/etc.. positions in the US?
A degree doesn't qualify you. But I do know of one that was promoted above my Dad in a large Utility Company. I congratulate her.
13. What percentage of black children grow up without a father?
A lot. Why do you think that is?
14. What's the fundemental difference between Dr. Martin Luther King and Malcolm X?
Hint: You can answer this with one sentence, just compare their personas.
King: Civil right activist, equal rights for all, inspirational
X: Spokesman for Nation of Islam, the nucleus of "Black Power", but not comparable to King on any level.
15. How are those folks down in New Orleans doing? Are they back on their feet yet?
Hint: Doing a Yahoo News or Google News search for 'Hurricane Katrina' or 'New Orleans' will give u recent update.
You can't depend on the government for everything. Sometimes, you have to take charge and control of your own life. White people lived there too, yanno.
16. Who was the first black candidate for President in the US?
Hint: SHE was also the first female to seek the Dem. nomination. 1972\
Chisholm
17. In 2008 what % of Americans admitted that race affects their vote?
90?
18. Name atleast one anti-black/white supremacist group OTHER THAN THE KKK.
Black Panthers, Nation of Yahweh
19. Name one advantage of Affirmative Action.
Is there one? A system that forces employers to hire people because of the color of their skin is not an advantage.
20. Name one disadvantage of Affirmative Action.
Its really "institutional racism" if you think about it.
Ok, those are my answers. If some of my answers seemed tongue in cheek, they were. There is no malice intended by any of my answers. I'm simply not an expert in black history. Did I win? =)
FRE
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- FRE,
It's certainly wonderful that you had the strength to rise above the problem you faced and not let being constantly put down keep you down. However, most people simply are not that strong and cannot pull themselves up without considerable encouragement. Somehow we have to learn how to provide that encouragement.
Why? I'd be interested to hear, from either of you, why you think this thread is a joke.
Poverty is relative. I assume you are referring to Africa. Yes, the poverty in Africa is of a different level. That doesn't mean that the poverty in the US is not very real. There are many, many people (more white than not) who live below the 'poverty line'. Read this, The Development of the Orshansky Poverty Thresholds and Their Subsequent History as the Official U.S. Poverty Measure, if you are interested in understanding what that means.
While I believe that the organisations you have listed may do as much to harm the perception non-blacks have of black people as they do to support black people I think you may have misread the question.
FRE
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- FRE,
I understand that some people see this thread as a joke. Fine, then just don't visit it. Many of us see it as a very serious matter and welcome the opportunity to further our knowledge of racism, its history, and what we can do to end it.
Obviously there will be contrary opinions expressed on the various aspects of racism; that's OK as long as we are able to respect good hearted, reasonable, and responsible people with whom we disagree.
Obviously there will be contrary opinions expressed on the various aspects of racism; that's OK as long as we are able to respect good hearted, reasonable, and responsible people with whom we disagree.
- b.c.,
The thread is really about two things that are related. The first makes reference to the House considering a formal apology for slavery.
The very issue has always been a rather polarizing one because on the one hand you have various groups of white people who fairly resent the idea (presumably for a variety of reasons, some of which are in fact understandable) while you also have a group of black people who neither need or want such a formal decree, in part because thought the intentions may honorable, it would technically be a rather useless gesture other than the fact that it'd place us (black folk) in the role of "victim" (again) and would thereby fuel the resentment in that regard.
Bold proclamations of nobel intent means much less to me than quiet determination to set right inequities that may still exist as a result of that "institution".
The other part of the op though has to do with black history, the idea of which was vociferously characterized by some here as "unnecessary" and "bullshit".
The need for black history is because history (as learned in the classrooms) had always traditionally ignored the role that blacks and other minorities played in the formation of this nation. White students at a very early age learned of George Washington and other historical figures and were taught the qualities that these leaders had, qualities that they (students) were encouraged to emulate. Black students had no such comparable black role models so we learned George Washington too (walked around in our white wigs carrying our little axes and lookin for a cherry tree...lol).
Now some here would say, what's wrong with that? Nothing. But I'll add this: There are those here who are quick to stereotype black folk as "50 percenters" who hold no vested or "common" interest (presumably in this country I think he was trying to say)... or who play little role as stakeholders in the American process.
That was really "bullshit" of course, but if there is too much of a disconnect then perhaps it is an acquired indifference, learned in classrooms that exclude the contributions of black folk in the building of this nation.
Back when I was in school, most of what we learned about was that we were slaves. We learned that black folk during the Civil War were more or less bystanders. Bystanders? In a war over slavery.
(Yeah I know - I'll get a million responses that it really wasn't over slavery, it was to preserve the Union and the cause of the war was changed later on because the North was losing blah blah blah... trust me on this...it was over slavery).
Now we know that there were a number of regiments of black troops who fought in the war (like the 54th Massachusettes). That's quite a difference from the image of docile beings waiting to learn of their faith while others did the fighting.
When black children (and indeed all children) learn of those blacks of our past who did something, who took a stand, who participated in the process - maybe it sends a message to them that they too can make a difference, that they indeed have a historical vested interest in the process...in the dream.
So maybe for now, until history books become less of HIStory and more of OURstory (meaning ALL of us from the various nations and ethnicities that played a hand in the making of America) we'll need black (and other minority) history.
The very issue has always been a rather polarizing one because on the one hand you have various groups of white people who fairly resent the idea (presumably for a variety of reasons, some of which are in fact understandable) while you also have a group of black people who neither need or want such a formal decree, in part because thought the intentions may honorable, it would technically be a rather useless gesture other than the fact that it'd place us (black folk) in the role of "victim" (again) and would thereby fuel the resentment in that regard.
Bold proclamations of nobel intent means much less to me than quiet determination to set right inequities that may still exist as a result of that "institution".
The other part of the op though has to do with black history, the idea of which was vociferously characterized by some here as "unnecessary" and "bullshit".
The need for black history is because history (as learned in the classrooms) had always traditionally ignored the role that blacks and other minorities played in the formation of this nation. White students at a very early age learned of George Washington and other historical figures and were taught the qualities that these leaders had, qualities that they (students) were encouraged to emulate. Black students had no such comparable black role models so we learned George Washington too (walked around in our white wigs carrying our little axes and lookin for a cherry tree...lol).
Now some here would say, what's wrong with that? Nothing. But I'll add this: There are those here who are quick to stereotype black folk as "50 percenters" who hold no vested or "common" interest (presumably in this country I think he was trying to say)... or who play little role as stakeholders in the American process.
That was really "bullshit" of course, but if there is too much of a disconnect then perhaps it is an acquired indifference, learned in classrooms that exclude the contributions of black folk in the building of this nation.
Back when I was in school, most of what we learned about was that we were slaves. We learned that black folk during the Civil War were more or less bystanders. Bystanders? In a war over slavery.
(Yeah I know - I'll get a million responses that it really wasn't over slavery, it was to preserve the Union and the cause of the war was changed later on because the North was losing blah blah blah... trust me on this...it was over slavery).
Now we know that there were a number of regiments of black troops who fought in the war (like the 54th Massachusettes). That's quite a difference from the image of docile beings waiting to learn of their faith while others did the fighting.
When black children (and indeed all children) learn of those blacks of our past who did something, who took a stand, who participated in the process - maybe it sends a message to them that they too can make a difference, that they indeed have a historical vested interest in the process...in the dream.
So maybe for now, until history books become less of HIStory and more of OURstory (meaning ALL of us from the various nations and ethnicities that played a hand in the making of America) we'll need black (and other minority) history.
We can offer helping hands forever but the person has to make the decision to rise above it themselves. My mother was mean to me or my dad beat me will do a number on your head but there is free counseling out there. You have to want to get better before you can get better. It doesn't happen overnight. I've been working on issues for over 28 years. The wounds are piled layer upon layer, and have to be dealt with layer by layer. Also, sometimes you need to take some time off from working on yourself and just have fun.
Naughty, I've got the bug. When I get over it, let's go eat.
Notaguru2
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This is an interesting thread. I haven't had time to read nearly all of it. Here is my take:
An Analogy:
A group of children are starving in a small town. Word gets out about it. Nearly every city council in the United States votes on and passes a very strongly worded document not only condemning the fact that the children are starving, but also apologizing for the fact that there are people there is that small town that are preventing the children form eating the food available.
The media declares the national movement a success. Leaders the world over praise America for her willingness to confront the issue of starvation of children in that small town.
Meanwhile, things go on as usual. More and more children starve to death each day. But, we can all take heart. We as a nation universally condemned the deliberate restriction of food.
This is how I feel about an apology. I am a retired teacher. I see the effects of poverty. I see the effects what what slavery did to the basic unit of a culture, the family. I am not black. I am a white guy that was raised in the South.
But if I were Black. an apology wouldn't be my first concern. Instead I would want to see the Billions of dollars plundered in Iraq spent on helping the huge black male population that now lives in American prisons make the transition to becoming honest, self supporting citizens of our nation. We in America have the largest ratio of people in prison in the Western World. and most of the prisoners are black.
To me, and I taught social studies, the absolute worst aspect of slavery was not the long hours they worked. Many free people put in just as many long hours trying to make it in a new country. The living conditions were pitiful to say the least. But there were free people who in their first winter lived in a three sided house with the fourth side facing away from the wind. No one had running water in the South back then. Those Southern Plantation mansions may look great in their restored condition today with central heat and air. But back then, they were cold as ice in the winter and hot as hell in the summer.
So what was the absolute WORST result of slavery today to the descendants of those slaves? The complete and total destruction of the basic family unit that still affects black families today. Slave families were broken apart. White overseers and slave owners took the black women slaves they wanted away from the black slave husbands. Families were broken up and sold to different people. How many black children aer being raised by a single parent and sometimes a parent substitute. Black males still suffer greatly today the self image that is still carried on today.
About that toy. Give it back. How, break the cycle that repeats generation after generation no matter what it costs or how long it takes. Help the black males in particular, but black homes restore the basic family unit that nurtures the children so that a huge segment of the children don't go to prison before they are 25.
We are paying by the billions now for what happened back then. How about hiring at a good salary some of our best and brightest black males to
help mentor young black males in kindergarten. How about universal and free preschool for four year olds? How about not having so many high salaried administration people and reducing the teacher ratio to students. Kindergarten shouldn't have more than 15 students. But some kindergarten teachers have twenty-two or more students with no help. We are talking about five year olds.
How about a government sponsored work and mentor program for
boys with no father figure? In our high schools instead of locking up restrooms and making life hell for the students, how about hiring security people to see that property isn't destroyed and the students behave. As a teacher I can attest that the best disciplinary action is having a responsible adult present. It is when there isn't a responsible adult present that all hell breaks loose. The original purpose of public school was to make Good Responsible Citizens. We have added a lot that the schools are expected to teach. If the school fails to teach students to be responsible citizens, then the public schools have failed in the primary mission.
How about after school programs that focus more on giving ownership to the young black males instead of a few programs that just ram some more remedial reading course down the throats of young black males who don't like the boring stories and have no reason they understand to want to read all that stuff.
If we are serious about being sorry about what people who are no longing living did 150 years ago, we will give OWNERSHIP particularly to the black males in this country. I'm not talking about a free handout that last for a day. I'm talking about our young black students particularly the males have a vested interest from age three to get involved and have a part in living in the richest nation in the world instead of spending their older teen years and adult years in a prison somewhere in America.
Side Note: I would write the legislation for all who are in poverty and meet the qualifications, I wouldn't make the legislation state that only blacks can benefit. ALL children who need these programs should get them. It is the best investment we as a nation can make. Far cheaper than the 60,000 or so dollars it costs to incarcerate a prisoner.
It is real simple. I take your toy away from you. Mom says I should say I am sorry. I write a grand and glorious apology letter than makes people weep when they read it. However, threre sino way in hell am I giving the toy back voluntarily.
If I were black, I would be more interested in getting my toy back than an apology. I would want to see Blacks really have a stake and be a part of the American society. I would want to see the black males score as high on those tests as the black girls and white boys do. At last check, white girls still had a slight edge on white boys and black girls and a huge edge over black males.
This doesn't mean that if I were a Representative in the US Congress that I wouldn't vote for a apology I would sponsor the bills to do the things I have mentioned to go along with that apology though.
Actions still speak louder than words.
CONCERNING THE ACTIONS OF THE BLACK AFRICAN KINGS AND BLACK SLAVE TRADERS:
I taught social studies. And for the record, yes, slavery has gone on in human history from the beginning. And under new names it is still going on in some countries today. True there were blacks in Africa that sold the blacks from the tribes that had been defeated in war. That had been going on for centuries. Certainly it was wrong. But, that is no excuse for us right now to NOT do what is right. Hiding behind the, "I wasn't the only one stealing toys." isn't an excuse to refuse to apologize for steading the toy and more importantly give the toy back if we still have the toy.
Truth is, none of us living did anything wrong back then. Those people are all dead. What the House is considering is an apology for what WE as a nation did back then, not what the nations of Africa did back then or what we as individuals living today did or didn't do. If those nations want to apologize for what those nations did back then, that is something those nations will have to do themselves.
CONCLUSION: I wish the best for the apology legislation to pass, but with some teeth and money that helps repair the lingering damage that we as a nation caused by allowing slavery. And folks, this not a Southern problem, it is a national problem. We should all be in it. The multi-millionair black family that has reached that promised land already has as much responsibility as white people whose ancestors no longer living have.
*To much is given, much is required.*
That quote includes a lot of Americans who now have a lot to give.
*I hope I quoted that right, I am going off my memory. Still it is a quote that I often think about.
An Analogy:
A group of children are starving in a small town. Word gets out about it. Nearly every city council in the United States votes on and passes a very strongly worded document not only condemning the fact that the children are starving, but also apologizing for the fact that there are people there is that small town that are preventing the children form eating the food available.
The media declares the national movement a success. Leaders the world over praise America for her willingness to confront the issue of starvation of children in that small town.
Meanwhile, things go on as usual. More and more children starve to death each day. But, we can all take heart. We as a nation universally condemned the deliberate restriction of food.
This is how I feel about an apology. I am a retired teacher. I see the effects of poverty. I see the effects what what slavery did to the basic unit of a culture, the family. I am not black. I am a white guy that was raised in the South.
But if I were Black. an apology wouldn't be my first concern. Instead I would want to see the Billions of dollars plundered in Iraq spent on helping the huge black male population that now lives in American prisons make the transition to becoming honest, self supporting citizens of our nation. We in America have the largest ratio of people in prison in the Western World. and most of the prisoners are black.
To me, and I taught social studies, the absolute worst aspect of slavery was not the long hours they worked. Many free people put in just as many long hours trying to make it in a new country. The living conditions were pitiful to say the least. But there were free people who in their first winter lived in a three sided house with the fourth side facing away from the wind. No one had running water in the South back then. Those Southern Plantation mansions may look great in their restored condition today with central heat and air. But back then, they were cold as ice in the winter and hot as hell in the summer.
So what was the absolute WORST result of slavery today to the descendants of those slaves? The complete and total destruction of the basic family unit that still affects black families today. Slave families were broken apart. White overseers and slave owners took the black women slaves they wanted away from the black slave husbands. Families were broken up and sold to different people. How many black children aer being raised by a single parent and sometimes a parent substitute. Black males still suffer greatly today the self image that is still carried on today.
About that toy. Give it back. How, break the cycle that repeats generation after generation no matter what it costs or how long it takes. Help the black males in particular, but black homes restore the basic family unit that nurtures the children so that a huge segment of the children don't go to prison before they are 25.
We are paying by the billions now for what happened back then. How about hiring at a good salary some of our best and brightest black males to
help mentor young black males in kindergarten. How about universal and free preschool for four year olds? How about not having so many high salaried administration people and reducing the teacher ratio to students. Kindergarten shouldn't have more than 15 students. But some kindergarten teachers have twenty-two or more students with no help. We are talking about five year olds.
How about a government sponsored work and mentor program for
boys with no father figure? In our high schools instead of locking up restrooms and making life hell for the students, how about hiring security people to see that property isn't destroyed and the students behave. As a teacher I can attest that the best disciplinary action is having a responsible adult present. It is when there isn't a responsible adult present that all hell breaks loose. The original purpose of public school was to make Good Responsible Citizens. We have added a lot that the schools are expected to teach. If the school fails to teach students to be responsible citizens, then the public schools have failed in the primary mission.
How about after school programs that focus more on giving ownership to the young black males instead of a few programs that just ram some more remedial reading course down the throats of young black males who don't like the boring stories and have no reason they understand to want to read all that stuff.
If we are serious about being sorry about what people who are no longing living did 150 years ago, we will give OWNERSHIP particularly to the black males in this country. I'm not talking about a free handout that last for a day. I'm talking about our young black students particularly the males have a vested interest from age three to get involved and have a part in living in the richest nation in the world instead of spending their older teen years and adult years in a prison somewhere in America.
Side Note: I would write the legislation for all who are in poverty and meet the qualifications, I wouldn't make the legislation state that only blacks can benefit. ALL children who need these programs should get them. It is the best investment we as a nation can make. Far cheaper than the 60,000 or so dollars it costs to incarcerate a prisoner.
It is real simple. I take your toy away from you. Mom says I should say I am sorry. I write a grand and glorious apology letter than makes people weep when they read it. However, threre sino way in hell am I giving the toy back voluntarily.
If I were black, I would be more interested in getting my toy back than an apology. I would want to see Blacks really have a stake and be a part of the American society. I would want to see the black males score as high on those tests as the black girls and white boys do. At last check, white girls still had a slight edge on white boys and black girls and a huge edge over black males.
This doesn't mean that if I were a Representative in the US Congress that I wouldn't vote for a apology I would sponsor the bills to do the things I have mentioned to go along with that apology though.
Actions still speak louder than words.
CONCERNING THE ACTIONS OF THE BLACK AFRICAN KINGS AND BLACK SLAVE TRADERS:
I taught social studies. And for the record, yes, slavery has gone on in human history from the beginning. And under new names it is still going on in some countries today. True there were blacks in Africa that sold the blacks from the tribes that had been defeated in war. That had been going on for centuries. Certainly it was wrong. But, that is no excuse for us right now to NOT do what is right. Hiding behind the, "I wasn't the only one stealing toys." isn't an excuse to refuse to apologize for steading the toy and more importantly give the toy back if we still have the toy.
Truth is, none of us living did anything wrong back then. Those people are all dead. What the House is considering is an apology for what WE as a nation did back then, not what the nations of Africa did back then or what we as individuals living today did or didn't do. If those nations want to apologize for what those nations did back then, that is something those nations will have to do themselves.
CONCLUSION: I wish the best for the apology legislation to pass, but with some teeth and money that helps repair the lingering damage that we as a nation caused by allowing slavery. And folks, this not a Southern problem, it is a national problem. We should all be in it. The multi-millionair black family that has reached that promised land already has as much responsibility as white people whose ancestors no longer living have.
*To much is given, much is required.*
That quote includes a lot of Americans who now have a lot to give.
*I hope I quoted that right, I am going off my memory. Still it is a quote that I often think about.
Notaguru2
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I did a skim of the article you presented.
I take a worldview of poverty because there has to be a baseline from which to start. In my mind, poverty is deeper than simply lower income. When I think of poverty, I think of zero-low income, lack of social services, lack of basic needs being met, and general well being that affects populations, not the few.
In America, I would argue that few people are truly impoverished. If you live in public housing, you are not living in poverty. Why? Because, you have a climate controlled roof over your head, you have welfare assistance to purchase food, you have at least one color television, and so on. The existence of our welfare system was put into place specifically so that Americans would not live in poverty and always be advantaged over those of other nations.
If you live an impoverished life in America, then I would have to say its a lifestyle of your choosing. There are far too many opportunities in this country for it to be otherwise.
I'm not elitist; I just think that the comfort America provides gets overlooked at times. I would almost say that poverty doesn't exist in America by comparison to the worldview, but I will leave room for a few exceptions that have chosen that lifestyle.
I don't agree with Republicans often, but I believe Nixon had it correct when he tried to have the terms "poor" and "poverty" replaced with "low-income" in the Census. It underscores that Americans simply don't live in poverty; nor do we truly understand what it is like to be impoverished. Poverty isn't a measurement of the Jones'. It's a measurement of humanity and has no boundaries.
I'm not saying that poverty has never existed in America, because it has. What I am saying is that poverty our forefathers knew has since been eradicated and is virtually non-existent today. Poverty doesn't scale - poverty is poverty.
My whole opinion is counter to the paper you referenced. However, the paper is an opinion as well. I guess we just define poverty different ways.
Xcuze
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OMG these posts are too fucking long. If you cant say it it in 3 sentences, dont bother. Perez Hilton taught me that BTW. LOL.
Given all the recent subject matters in etc etc I honestly thought this topic was about the TV show House. Then I spotted that it was written by Marleyisablancmange - boy did I feel stooooopid!
Black slavery? Hmmmm. The only time I have any interest in black slavery is when its the theme of a Gay porn film starring Bobby Blake or Flex Gamble. Other than that I cant even be bothered to pretend I care.
Women being trafficked from Eastern Europe to work has beaten down sex slaves in the west. Children in Africa & Asia being kidnapped & used as slave labour. These are far more pressing & relevant subjects regarding slavery than the topic raised in the OP. But they dont involve Americans so who gives a fuck right? Right.
Ooops, broke my 3 sentence rule! :redface:
Given all the recent subject matters in etc etc I honestly thought this topic was about the TV show House. Then I spotted that it was written by Marleyisablancmange - boy did I feel stooooopid!
Black slavery? Hmmmm. The only time I have any interest in black slavery is when its the theme of a Gay porn film starring Bobby Blake or Flex Gamble. Other than that I cant even be bothered to pretend I care.
Women being trafficked from Eastern Europe to work has beaten down sex slaves in the west. Children in Africa & Asia being kidnapped & used as slave labour. These are far more pressing & relevant subjects regarding slavery than the topic raised in the OP. But they dont involve Americans so who gives a fuck right? Right.
Ooops, broke my 3 sentence rule! :redface:
So because there are more pressing topics in the world we shouldn't talk about the less pressing ones.
Go look back at my post about why knowledge of history is important.
Oh, and if you REALLY believe discussing the 'less important' things is wrong in the light of the world's troubles stop reading and posting in a big dick forum.
:wink:
Xcuze
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So because there are more pressing topics in the world we shouldn't talk about the less pressing ones.
Go look back at my post about why knowledge of history is important.
Oh, and if you REALLY believe discussing the 'less important' things is wrong in the light of the world's troubles stop reading and posting in a big dick forum.
Er, where did I say it was wrong? Please point that bit out, youre so good at doing that usually, dear. Listen, no-ones more shallow around here than me. But Im sick of the word slavery being hijacked to exclusively refer to Black people imported to America against their will. It has a more relevant use today. Here & now. Thats all I have to say. Now back off, Manly.
Now, now - sheath those eveready claws, kitty-kat - you know I don't take instruction.
You said "Women being trafficked from Eastern Europe to work [as] beaten down sex slaves in the west[ and c]hildren in Africa & Asia being kidnapped & used as slave labour [...] are far more pressing & relevant subjects regarding slavery than the topic raised in the OP" but marley never said they weren't.
Marley was reacting to something in the news about black slavery (that congress were considering an apology) and he started a thread on awareness of the history of black slavery. At no point does he even attempt to debate the importance of historical slavery in relation to modern slavery. Nor does he even mention the general 'ethics' of slavery. This thread is not a comparsion to anything - so I naturally inferred from you reaction that you thought it was somehow wrong to discuss the subject in this isolated fashion at all.
If you look back over marley's OP you will see him use the term slavery and not slavery of blacks in America but I think given the context (the congress apology issue) and the fact he clearly goes on to talk about black history that he is not hijacking the word at all. His context is clear - you are taking exception here simply because you can. Of course, I shouldn't really be surprised at that now, should I...
Xcuze
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Actually I have no opinion on whether its right or wrong to start such a thread. Couldnt care less. I posted through sheer boredom. Just like youre doing, Manly. Looking for someone to pounce on, tiger? Youre original post to me was wrong on both counts; I didnt say the thread was wrong & I have no problem with discussing lesser subjects. Have you seen my threads? But you couldnt just accept that could you & had to have a little dig?
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Your first post in this thread was, in the context of the thread, a steaming pile. I just like to call a steaming pile for what it is, X. My work here is done
FRE
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- FRE,
Freddie made a very good post. However, I'd like to include something that he didn't cover.
Freddie attributes the instability in black families to the fact that families were intentionally broken up during slavery. More recent events have also contributed to the breakup of back families and, at this time, may be more important than what happened during slavery.
Some welfare programs, enacted with the best of intentions, have contributed to the breakup of black families. Some of these programs would not provide assistance to mothers while a man was living in the house. So, if a husband lost his job and was unable to provide adequately for the family, he had to leave to enable his wife to get support from welfare programs. That resulted in the breakup of many black families and established a pattern of women having children without a husband, a pattern which can be passed from generation to generation. Of course this situation does not affect only black families; many poor white families are similarly affected. However, for various comples reasons, black men tended to find it more difficult than white men to find employment which provided an adequate income, so black families were affected more than white families.
The problem now is how to undo the damage caused by poorly designed welfare programs so that unmarried women will not continue to have children. Having children without having a husband or partner to provide an adequate income is a common cause of poverty and welfare dependence. Somehow that pattern has to be broken.
Freddie attributes the instability in black families to the fact that families were intentionally broken up during slavery. More recent events have also contributed to the breakup of back families and, at this time, may be more important than what happened during slavery.
Some welfare programs, enacted with the best of intentions, have contributed to the breakup of black families. Some of these programs would not provide assistance to mothers while a man was living in the house. So, if a husband lost his job and was unable to provide adequately for the family, he had to leave to enable his wife to get support from welfare programs. That resulted in the breakup of many black families and established a pattern of women having children without a husband, a pattern which can be passed from generation to generation. Of course this situation does not affect only black families; many poor white families are similarly affected. However, for various comples reasons, black men tended to find it more difficult than white men to find employment which provided an adequate income, so black families were affected more than white families.
The problem now is how to undo the damage caused by poorly designed welfare programs so that unmarried women will not continue to have children. Having children without having a husband or partner to provide an adequate income is a common cause of poverty and welfare dependence. Somehow that pattern has to be broken.
How is it you are blaming broken homes on this stuff? My friends who are black blame it on the moral decay of society. One woman said it was due to the "if it feels good, do it." motto. I'm tired of looking for causes, how about working to change things. You want a mentor for a child, become a big brother, big sister or foster grandparent. The government has thrown hundreds of billions of dollars at these problems and not fixed them. We have a foster grandparent program at our schools. The little children are loved, cared about, and contacted regularly to make sure they are going to school, doing well, and getting the help they need.
Guys, GREAT ANSWERS, I've actually learned a thing or two going through some of these answers, those my knees are sore from sitting in the same position for so long.
MARLEYS DEMAND. It isn't for reparations, it isn't for apologies, it's for the intellectual, unbiased posters to ignore the trolls who are offended, bored, disgusted, whatever by this thread and posting slop that I don't bother reading past "This thread is" or "Why won't black people".
There are some great points being tossed around. In the context of this discussion, some of the responses included information I didn't consider, in some cases I didn't even know. As far as the answers, I'm confliced about how to post them. Do you guys want the answers:
A) One or two lumps at a time. Each question could potentially bleed into a discussion, that's evident considering the posts like Freddie's and Manly's. Perhaps some of my questions were a bit simplistic, but fortunately that's led to lots of insightful posts, and good information being posted.
or
B) Altogether. I could simply post all the answers. Here's a hint, most of you have been right so far.
*PS, I started this thread BECAUSE of the news that the House was considering an apology. I don't demand one, many blacks have let slavery go, but harping about it and discussing it in a historical context are 2 different things, the apology thing was just a segue.
MARLEYS DEMAND. It isn't for reparations, it isn't for apologies, it's for the intellectual, unbiased posters to ignore the trolls who are offended, bored, disgusted, whatever by this thread and posting slop that I don't bother reading past "This thread is" or "Why won't black people".
There are some great points being tossed around. In the context of this discussion, some of the responses included information I didn't consider, in some cases I didn't even know. As far as the answers, I'm confliced about how to post them. Do you guys want the answers:
A) One or two lumps at a time. Each question could potentially bleed into a discussion, that's evident considering the posts like Freddie's and Manly's. Perhaps some of my questions were a bit simplistic, but fortunately that's led to lots of insightful posts, and good information being posted.
or
B) Altogether. I could simply post all the answers. Here's a hint, most of you have been right so far.
*PS, I started this thread BECAUSE of the news that the House was considering an apology. I don't demand one, many blacks have let slavery go, but harping about it and discussing it in a historical context are 2 different things, the apology thing was just a segue.
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Notaguru2
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I fear an apology wouldn't mean anything in a non-binding resolution unless everyone in congress signed off on it (fat chance). If for some reason it was split, it would start an even larger fire.
My perspective is that its too late for an apology. No one alive today was alive back then, so why should anyone today wear that burden? I did my family tree, and it turns out that my family had a plantation with slaves in South Carolina. Does that make me a white supremacist? No! =) In fact, my family is rather multicultural as it is today.
Sure, I'm saddened by my family history in regard to slavery, but I share no culpability in it. I'm a proud southerner, not because of slavery, but because of my heritage. To people who think southern heritage is slavery, they're simply ignorant.
The best thing we can do is learn from history and ensure that we always progress and never regress.
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