How do you conservatives feel about this?

redneckgymrat

Experimental Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Posts
1,479
Media
0
Likes
17
Points
73
Location
Texas
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
It is a conservative view as it is derived from religious fundamentalism which by definition is conservative.

Religious conservatism is only a subset of general conservatism.

One need not be religious to be a conservative, nor do all conservatives support proposals based on religion. In fact, most conservatives hold, very dear, the principle that religious views should be independent and separate from policy.

Let me give you a practical example, based on my own views.

I am very much against the use of abortion, in most cases, as I do genuinely believe that life begins at conception. I don't want to debate this, or derail the thread...this is only for the purpose of illustration. But yes, I am *VERY* pro-life.

Yet, despite my my very strong views, I happily concede that abortion is a valid medical procedure which *is* occasionally needed. Notice my use of the word occasionally. My view says that it shouldn't be used for morning after birth control...but that in cases, such as ectopic pregnancy, the procedure should be available, to be used in a proper way. And yes, I believe that it's *not* just an issue for the mother...since it's not a tissue mass, but a baby, I do believe that the child's rights must also be considered.

Simply put, my view is that abortion is usually bad. My *policy* decision, though, would be that abortion should be legal...and perhaps that women could be encouraged to keep the babies. (I think that's what the ultrasound thing is about...show them the baby they're about to kill. But, again, heavy handed and inappropriate, in practice.)

You see, just because I don't like something, that doesn't mean that I believe it should be rendered illegal. This is a fairly consistent view, shared by many on the conservative side of the debate.

Mr Santorum's views on pornography are based on, and colored by, his own religion. And that's fine. Our religious beliefs *should* influence and impact our lives. But making it a plank in his platform was a poor choice.

If he wanted to frame it as the exploitation of young people, or that it's not *actually* victimless, etc, that would be different...but politically, framing it as he did, is quite a bad idea.
 
Last edited:

gymfresh

Expert Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Jan 8, 2008
Posts
1,633
Media
20
Likes
154
Points
383
Location
Rodinia
Verification
View
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
My friend, liberals think that because one of them has an idea they all MUST think the same way.

Really? Have you not watched a congressional debate and vote lately? Trying to get the Democrats, particularly the liberal wing, to follow any plan is like herding cats; no party "whip" has any effect on them. The Republicans, on the other hand, march and vote in goosestep, er, lockstep.
 

Klingsor

Worshipped Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2011
Posts
10,888
Media
4
Likes
11,638
Points
293
Location
Champaign (Illinois, United States)
Sexuality
80% Straight, 20% Gay
Gender
Male
Really? Have you not watched a congressional debate and vote lately? Trying to get the Democrats, particularly the liberal wing, to follow any plan is like herding cats; no party "whip" has any effect on them. The Republicans, on the other hand, march and vote in goosestep, er, lockstep.

Dammit. I'll never get to post in this forum again if you keep taking the words out of my mouth and making them so much better.
 

Bbucko

Cherished Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Posts
7,232
Media
8
Likes
322
Points
208
Location
Sunny SoFla
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Religious conservatism is only a subset of general conservatism.

One need not be religious to be a conservative, nor do all conservatives support proposals based on religion. In fact, most conservatives hold, very dear, the principle that religious views should be independent and separate from policy.

Really? That's news to me (and I'm not being snarky). I find secular conservatives very few and far in between. But maybe I'm conflating "conservative" with "Republican".

FWIW, I appreciate your stance on abortion: it was very well articulated and nuanced.
 

gymfresh

Expert Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Jan 8, 2008
Posts
1,633
Media
20
Likes
154
Points
383
Location
Rodinia
Verification
View
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
I am *VERY* pro-life.

Yet, despite my my very strong views, I happily concede that abortion is a valid medical procedure which *is* occasionally needed. Notice my use of the word occasionally.

As I've mentioned before, I'm an SFBG liberal. But I feel somewhat the way you do on this issue, which you spelled out cogently and succinctly. I'd be happy if there were no more than a dozen abortions a year in this country. I detest the procedure, yet would fight tooth and nail to keep it legal. It has its legitimate medical purposes but, more importantly, it's a decision between a woman and her doctor. Personally, I don't believe anyone chooses abortion for birth control; that's a conservative shibboleth. Abortion is a horrible experience for anyone to go through, emotionally and physically, and any sane woman would want to avoid it at all costs. They probably choose it judiciously and with deep sadness.

But on the larger question of the milieu conservatives are creating, I think it is callous and inexcusable for them to make comments like, "the best birth control for women is to hold an aspirin between their knees." It's not funny, it's fucking insensitive and sexist. The idea of a vaginally invasive ultrasound for women seeking an abortion had no basis in medical advantage; it was designed exclusively to deter and humiliate. And what's the point of a "No Say Gay" law like in Tennessee? Again, it's meant to shape and steer all of society into some conservative-approved image of acceptability and order. Just mind-boggling.

My dad was the most conservative man I ever met, a real John Birch-er, but he would have shaken his head in disgust at some of the recent initiatives. And being a European conservative, he passionately defended universal healthcare and no death penalty as both humane and conservative positions. I'll never understand how out of one side of their mouths conservatives can say that everyone has an equal chance to make what they want of themselves in this society and we should all start out with a level playing field, then say that it's OK to grow up poor and lacking health care because, well, that's just the life station of the family you came from.

On the question of porn, I subscribe to the Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do school of thought. I don't agree with every point in the book, but unless a direct link can be made between what you own/view and the criminal exploitation of others, government can just fuck off.
 

travis1985

Expert Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Posts
835
Media
1
Likes
103
Points
288
Location
Coeur d'Alene (Idaho, United States)
Verification
View
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Male
I find it even more disgusting to see men argue against abortion, since they never have to deal with having one (or not).
I must disagree. The fact that men do not get pregnant doesn't mean they are not impacted by abortion. Millions of men have wanted to keep their children but had no power to try to do so if the mother didn't share that desire. Millions more have been the ones wanting abortions to take place, but been bound by law to pay child support if the mother wanted to keep the baby. The notion that men should mind their own business because abortion has nothing to do with them is a naive one.
 

itsthepopei

Legendary Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Posts
486
Media
9
Likes
1,201
Points
273
Location
Atlanta
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Religious conservatism is only a subset of general conservatism.

One need not be religious to be a conservative, nor do all conservatives support proposals based on religion. In fact, most conservatives hold, very dear, the principle that religious views should be independent and separate from policy.

Let me give you a practical example, based on my own views.

I am very much against the use of abortion, in most cases, as I do genuinely believe that life begins at conception. I don't want to debate this, or derail the thread...this is only for the purpose of illustration. But yes, I am *VERY* pro-life.

Yet, despite my my very strong views, I happily concede that abortion is a valid medical procedure which *is* occasionally needed. Notice my use of the word occasionally. My view says that it shouldn't be used for morning after birth control...but that in cases, such as ectopic pregnancy, the procedure should be available, to be used in a proper way. And yes, I believe that it's *not* just an issue for the mother...since it's not a tissue mass, but a baby, I do believe that the child's rights must also be considered.

Simply put, my view is that abortion is usually bad. My *policy* decision, though, would be that abortion should be legal...and perhaps that women could be encouraged to keep the babies. (I think that's what the ultrasound thing is about...show them the baby they're about to kill. But, again, heavy handed and inappropriate, in practice.)

You see, just because I don't like something, that doesn't mean that I believe it should be rendered illegal. This is a fairly consistent view, shared by many on the conservative side of the debate.

Mr Santorum's views on pornography are based on, and colored by, his own religion. And that's fine. Our religious beliefs *should* influence and impact our lives. But making it a plank in his platform was a poor choice.

If he wanted to frame it as the exploitation of young people, or that it's not *actually* victimless, etc, that would be different...but politically, framing it as he did, is quite a bad idea.

I recognize it as a part of conservatism and did not say that religiousness is an immediate indicator of conservatism i stated that religious fundamentalism is necessarily conservative.One can reject some parts of conservatism and accept others in fact the american right wing has adopted conservative liberalism.
 

tamati

Sexy Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Jun 6, 2011
Posts
1,875
Media
7
Likes
94
Points
308
Location
NorCal
Verification
View
Gender
Male
I must disagree. The fact that men do not get pregnant doesn't mean they are not impacted by abortion. Millions of men have wanted to keep their children but had no power to try to do so if the mother didn't share that desire. Millions more have been the ones wanting abortions to take place, but been bound by law to pay child support if the mother wanted to keep the baby. The notion that men should mind their own business because abortion has nothing to do with them is a naive one.

While I see what you are saying, thats an issue you have to discus with the mother before sex takes place, not something the guberment gets to decide for all mothers.

I thought free choice, instead of government control, was a hallmark of the right...?
 
Last edited:

travis1985

Expert Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Posts
835
Media
1
Likes
103
Points
288
Location
Coeur d'Alene (Idaho, United States)
Verification
View
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Male
While I see what you are saying, thats an issue you have to discus with the mother before sex takes place, not something the guberment gets to decide for all mothers.

I thought free choice, instead of government control, was a hallmark of the right...?
Agreements before the fact are not always adequate. How many times have we heard a pro-choice activist say that you never know for sure what you will want until pregnancy has already occurred? Men who discuss this with the women they have sex with have only a verbal expression of what the woman says she would do, one way or the other, at that moment in time. They do not have a pre-arrangement of anything.
 

travis1985

Expert Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Posts
835
Media
1
Likes
103
Points
288
Location
Coeur d'Alene (Idaho, United States)
Verification
View
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Male
So more government mandates that are not in the constitution?
Exactly what "mandates" are you speaking of? It looks to me that you don't like that I said it's unconstitutional to make people buy insurance against their will, so you're trying to use my words against me when I say men should have a say in whether or not their children get to be born.
 

tamati

Sexy Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Jun 6, 2011
Posts
1,875
Media
7
Likes
94
Points
308
Location
NorCal
Verification
View
Gender
Male
Yadda yadda yadda...


More freedom and less government achieved by more legislation that resricts free choice.

Next you guys will want an amendment resticting marriage benefits based on sexual preferences.

And mandating unneeded ultrasounds to run up healthcare costs...





If you dont like abortion, then opt out of sex with women.
 
Last edited:

Mensch1351

Cherished Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2006
Posts
1,166
Media
0
Likes
341
Points
303
Location
In the only other State that begins with "K"!
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
You can't be serious. If you are serious, you have a big fucking blind spot about the conservative movement

It's not a blind spot -- it's called "dis-connect!" They don't "get" the connection they make in supporting Constitutional amendments against civil rights, all the while saying they are the party of "live and let live!"

"I'm AGAINST abortion...............I'll insist that Doctors who perform them should be jailed. And I'll also insist that the woman raped HAVE that beautiful little innocent child. No matter that she didn't want him and can't afford to raise him. And by the way -- because I'm a strong 2nd Amendment advocate -- I'll reserve the right to shoot the little SOB when he grows up bad and tries to rob my house!" No disconnect -- none!