How do you reconcile being a Gay Christian.

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Drifterwood, Oct 13, 2009.

  1. Drifterwood

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    I am sorry if this is a somewhat hackneyed topic, if you are gay and christian, but it seems so irrational to me. I can't see that the Christian God is anything but homophobic. Eve was created for Adam, Noah took the animals two by two, Sodom was destroyed, and need I mention Leviticus? Paul thought that all sex was a sin.

    It just seems to me that Homosexuality and Christianity are irredeemably irreconcilable. Though of course, Jesus did love John.
     
  2. WowALotANamesTaken

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    Big can of worms being opened up here :wink:
     
  3. Drifterwood

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    Which may well mean that few will wish to discuss it :rolleyes:.
     
  4. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

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    not at all

    Judaism, like Islam, is a tribalistic ideology of social control, but sought its justification, and claimed as a predicate, a basis on the will of God

    the carpenter from Nazareth broke through that to get the actual heart of the issue, which is self-discovery, and self-realization (which involves recognizing the self as the part of the flow and entirety of all, i.e., existence, the universe, etc) Necessarily, self is part of the ontology of all and everything that came before, hence his reference to every jot and tittle, and his distinction between God and Caesar
     
    #4 B_Nick4444, Oct 13, 2009
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  5. Drifterwood

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    Isn't that just taking the love yourself bit and forgetting about God. Or are you saying that the representation of the Old Testament God is defunct, as perhaps should be that notion of Godness?

    In fact, you sound more Taoist than Christian, Nick and if I remember correctly, such esoteric interpretations had been declared heretical by the Third Century.
     
    #5 Drifterwood, Oct 13, 2009
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  6. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

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    precisely

    it is not as if Christ was welcomed with open arms by the Judaic authorities

    new organizations arose, claiming Christ as a predicate, much as the predecessor Judaic authorities had claimed the insights of God (and all that flows therefrom) by the previous prophets

    but these new organizations only aim was the exercise of power, and the enjoyment of privilege

    parenthetically, Lao-Tze, Jesus Christ, and Prince Gautama would easily converse in agreement, I think
     
  7. Drifterwood

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    This would suggest that you do not reconcile "christianity" as we are led to understand it.

    Do you think that the Christian Church is suddenly going to back track (no pun intended)?
     
  8. luka82

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    Well, I think God most of all likes LOVE and COMPATION!
    So, all in all, I don`t think God could hate for a loving a guy!
    I only need to find that guy :)
     
  9. Bbucko

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    I think that the only real answer to this is that religion and religious/spiritual feelings feelings are emotional, not rational in nature. The concept of rational spirituality is really a contradiction in terms.

    But I do believe that human beings are hardwired to ask questions that most find answered by some religion or other. This applies to people whether straight or gay.
     
  10. Northland

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    Note before I start, these are my thoughts, not those of anyone else, nor am I attempting to sway others into my way of thinking.


    Religious organizations often declare homosexuality to be a sin and evil. It's odd because they also insist that God loves all of us. Methodists, Episcopals (Episcopalians?) are in long term conflict on the matter of sexuality. The Methodists in particular, pulled one lesbian preacher from her job and another one got to stay put even though (at least at the time) the Methodists gave homosexuality as a reason for termination of membership in their churches (not sure if this has changed).


    When Christianity is connected to an organization it can get complicated. When a person is a Christian (which to me, would mean following Jesus Christ as a spiritual guide) but is not connected to a formal organization it is often (though not always) a little more open. People will remember that Jesus loved all and tried to help all, whether rich or poor sick or healthy, Jesus had but one goal, to show people the love of God (said to be our Father and Creator). In that mission, love was spread about to all-even at the end, while hanging on a cross, he was said to have asked forgiveness towards those who hung him there. Christianity as a way of life, without organization is more likely to be open minded, as there is not a council saying that one is living the life proscribed by Satan.

    I was placed in a Christian church (Methodist) as a child and baptized and confirmed there. The confusion generated from there on all sorts of issues as far as good and bad and the pronouncement that many would be sent to Hell for their sins-while others doing the same (adltery, theft, cheating etc.) would not-caused me to withdraw membership (a process which took nearly 20 years before they'd accept it, even though my bisexuality was known by them). I follow the basic teachings of Jesus (or try to, often falling short), which to me simply means living a caring and decent life, trying not to harm others and trying to help where and when I can. As I indicated a few days back, a book which I've used as a guideline is In His Steps by Charles Sheldon (found online and can be read online here: FreeBooksToRead.com - In His Steps by Charles M. Sheldon - Page 1 the other day, I used a Guutenberg link for the same book)



    Sexuality, even in the bible and matters such as incest are topics which generate more confusion than answer. An ongoing debate, which may never end while we walk on Earth.

    One place to add even more confusion is here: HOMOSEXUALITY AND BISEXUALITY
     
  11. jack65

    jack65 New Member

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    I am sorry if this is a somewhat hackneyed topic, if you are gay and christian, but it seems so irrational to me. I can't see that the Christian God is anything but homophobic.
    Not so, God does indeed love all kinds, This is the reason why there was the need for the Christ.
    Eve was created for Adam, Noah took the animals two by two,
    Just pure logic really, if you have two boys or girls where do the offspring come from?
    Sodom was destroyed, and need I mention Leviticus?
    Yes there were Homosexuals there but that's not why it was destroyed, it was the hart's intentions that caused there doom.
    Paul thought that all sex was a sin.
    And yet he told any one under sixty to get remarried if they still had the "itch"
    It just seems to me that Homosexuality and Christianity are irredeemably irreconcilable. Though of course, Jesus did love John.
    Jesus himself said that sex and sexuality was earthly thing once your body has passed there is no need for such things any more.

    The bible teachings are for the spiritual growth of a person.
    But i ask this "if all sin is equal then why is someones sexuality worse then some thing else that i or others may do/act upon"


     
  12. dude252007

    dude252007 New Member

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    God wrote the Ten Commandments directly himself and gave them to Moses. A bunch of mean who said they heard the voice of God wrote the Bible. The Bible is the problem. We only need the Ten Commandments.
     
  13. EagleCowboy

    EagleCowboy Well-Known Member

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    Not sure if you've read the Bible from cover to cover or not. Some things in the Bible pertain to times back then. Things are much different now, so some things no longer apply, although some still do. It says that women are supposed to wear veils. Have you seen any lately wearing veils? We can own slaves from a different country, but not from your own country.Yeah, like THAT'S going to happen!!

    Then there's the idiots that give any Christian bad names by simply interpreting the Bible to suit their own sick intentions or twisted agendas. I know way too many "Christians" that are quick to condemn you, chastise you, and tell you how it's supposed to be and how you're supposed to be and do, but Heaven forbid you should tell them such things when they step out of line or stray from the path. (a "do as I say, don't do as I do mentality")

    One could always do this:

    READ the Bible and KNOW what it says.
    It's not enough to READ it, you have to UNDERSTAND it.
    NEVER quote one scripture. ALWAYS quote the 4 above, the one you intend, and the 4 below. That way it can never be taken out of context. When people start quoting scripture to me, I always rudely stop them, and ask them to quote the above 4 and below 4. So far none have ever been able to do that. I have found that this tactic usually winds up sinking their ship and rendering their argument useless.

    Another thing to consider is that God makes each one of us. Since He is perfect, He makes no mistakes and doesn't make junk. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that He made each one of us the way we are for a reason. (reasons only known to Him--we don't need to know why) (gay, straight, bi)

    I went into town one Sunday and there were some Holy Rollers standing on the corner of an abandoned gas station waving huge signs. Some had scripture, one had GOD HATES ALL FAGS. I went to get my video camera to record these idiots, but by the time I got back, they were gone. I guess the police officer that had been sitting across the street from them watching them for the longest time must have run them off. Or they left on their own.

    I told my then manager about the incident. He's a budding pastor, trying to learn. I'm not sure what I expected him to say about the subject. I almost thought he might side with them in some way. But he floored me by saying something I never would have expected from a Christian. He told me that they were completely stupid. He also went on to say while proving a point at the same time, that if God hates you, like those holy rollers claim, then HOW could He ever forgive you. I had never thought of that point. He went on to say that God knows what you're going to do when He sends people down here, but that he HOPES that you'll come home to Him as he loves all His kids and it really saddens Him to see them going to Hell.


    Just don't use it like the so called "Christians" do. Do it in such a way that you set a perfect example for them.
     
  14. D_Portelay Porquesword

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    Of course anything rooted in spirituality is going to seem irrational and for good reason. Life requires more than just an intellect in order to navigate through and into what we are need to learn in order to grow and evolve. It often requires our cooperation in a leap of faith. We are at times forced to step outside of what we "know" in order to get to what life is trying to show us.

    For me this is the very nature of spirituality.

    Emotions are an integral part of the human experience; spiritual teachings offer us a guide to help maintain a balance between our physical lives and our spiritual lives. They also lend themselves to the idea of common sense when properly utilized. (This is why fanatics and religious zealots ruin it for the rest of us. No common sense! They throw the baby out with the bath water on a regular basis, all in the name of religion.)

    To live solely by the emotions to me is irrational. There are moments in life when these and other principals provide us with the tools we need in order to make it through situations we often feel powerless to face. They appeal to the intellect as well as the heart and as a result, enable us to move out of our own way and allow the truth to do its work in each of us.

    In my experience, accepting the truth no matter how brutal it may be and in spite of how much I resisted against it, has always lead me to some understanding that allowed for peace on some level.

    Being gay, I believe God understands my reasons for being who I am and he is certainly not limited by sexual persuasion. He is still capable of keeping his word and will provide help when I ask for it. Even if that means stepping outside of my own little reality.

    Darryl Hanna’s character in Steel Magnolias: “It may sound simple, but that’s how I get through these things.”
     
    #14 D_Portelay Porquesword, Oct 13, 2009
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  15. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

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    possibly yes, possibly no

    Every once in a while I see evidence of a resurgence of passionate faith -- (even the popular media, which I don't indulge in much, sometimes incorporates a surprising indication of this -- two examples come to mind -- Battlestar Galactica, and Stargate Universe, both had scenes where the religiosity of its main characters proved pivotal)

    who knows? maybe secular positivism is about to have run its course, and we'll see a second reformation
     
  16. D_Budd_Phlugg

    D_Budd_Phlugg New Member

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    Random thoughts on the subject.

    Do not judge yourself against others, do not judge others against yourself. If you must judge, just Christ as the standard. As you will surely fail too.

    Being a Christian is easy, being Christ-like is hard because it requires the following, repentance, forgiveness, in that order and it is never ending process.

    We always want the forgiveness and skip over the repentance.

    God views all sin the same, a lie is the same as murder. We like rank sin to make ourselves feel better.

    We deserve Hell, there is nothing I can do that will get me into Heaven. God forgives my debt but that does not mean I am innocent.

    Does reading this make you feel relieved or guilty?
     
  17. superbot

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    You're clearly not even at 'first base' in your understanding of Christianity.Yes indeed,'hackneyed' is quite apt!!
     
  18. Drifterwood

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  19. JustAsking

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    Drifter,
    This is nothing new. Jesus definitely readjusted religious prorities. He created a new covenant with humanity which acts to fulfill the legalistic old covenant by love and compassion. As St. Paul says in Corinthians,

    When Jesus is speaking to a crowd, someone challenges him with a question about what is the greatest commandment. Jesus answers with unassailable directness:

    And this is not simply a spurious passage. If that is not clear enough, in Luke, where this question and answer is also reported, Jesus follows it up with the Good Samaritan parable, which dramatically illustrates how compassion trumps religous law, when that law is without compassion. The parable is so dramatic that it casts some well meaning, but legalistic holy men as the losers and the hated Samaritan as the one who acts compassionately and selflessly.

    Not only is this repeated in many ways throughout the New Testament, but Jesus demonstrates this priority. He breaks religious law in the name of compassion and he is called out on it by the legalistic people around him. He is also frequently criticized for hanging out and drinking and eating with criminals and low life.

    One of Martin Luther's biggest contributions to modern theology was to bring our attention to the fact that it is not possible to really know the mind of God except as he is revealed to us through Jesus. So mainstream Christianity reads the Bible through a lens that it polishes while sitting at the foot of the empty cross. It is the lens of God's unconditional love and forgiveness, called God's grace. In some cases parts of the Old Testament are difficult to focus through that lens of grace but we accept the mystery and lack of clarity and continue to try to understand it.

    But as for mainstream Christians and gays, we are called by Jesus' word and example to be a radically loving and welcoming community that is unconditionally inclusive, just as everyone was welcome at Jesus' table.

    In theory, gays are welcome at all mainstream Christian churches and they should be received as we should receive anyone else, with loving arms of fellowship. Some churches go farther than that and declare themselves as "Reconciling in Christ" in the matter of accepting gay members. This is a way of declaring explicitly and proactively that they are welcoming.

    The final hurdle for the mainstream denominations is the accepting homosexuals into the sacraments, such as marriage or ordination into the clergy. The Episcopalians are out in front with that and have a gay national Bishop. The ELCA Lutherans have just finished their deliberations on the matter and now allow the ordination of gay men and women who are in committed relationships or who are celibate.

    Although, the ELCA left open a loophole that allows an individual congregation to decide not to call a gay pastor into service at their church. This loophole is there to minimize the possible schisms that might take place where churches leave the denomination if they are not ready for this. It allows the church organization to continue to work with them and bring them around to this kind of loving acceptance.
     
    #19 JustAsking, Oct 13, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2009
  20. B_bi_mmf

    B_bi_mmf New Member

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    Christianity, like all religions, is full of ambiguities and contradictions. So it is not surprising to me that it is simultaneously invoked to condemn homosexuals and to embrace them.

    I once found it surprising that gay people would align themselves with religion of any kind in light of all the hatred and intolerance that are the hallmark of so many religious institutions. Now I realize that gay people and straight people gravitate to religion for the same reasons, mainly because they have difficulty accepting their own mortality and the simple fact that the only meaning that life has is the meaning we breathe into it ourselves.
     
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