How do you reconcile being a Gay Christian.

jason_els

<img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi
Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Posts
10,228
Media
0
Likes
162
Points
193
Location
Warwick, NY, USA
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
The problem is that Phil's reasoning isn't logical. The Bible is no more all-or-nothing than anything else. Saying that the moon is made of green cheese doesn't mean there is no moon simply because we know it is not made of green cheese.

It's reasonable to say that there is no evidence that God created the world in six days but there is evidence to say that Pilate was prelate of Judea at the time of Jesus.

The Bible, in particular, is a book written by many authors over thousands of years. It's an anthology, not a monolith. Some things may be true, others not.
 

B_bi_mmf

Expert Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Posts
3,016
Media
0
Likes
133
Points
133
Location
U.S.
Gender
Male
If picking and choosing what to accept and what to reject from the Bible is OK, then on what basis are those decisions made? Since religion rejects reason and empirical evidence on such matters, I am left puzzled. What on earth supercedes the Bible to people who base their lives on it?
 

nineinchnail4u2c

Experimental Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2005
Posts
224
Media
3
Likes
12
Points
238
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
The problem is that Phil's reasoning isn't logical. The Bible is no more all-or-nothing than anything else. Saying that the moon is made of green cheese doesn't mean there is no moon simply because we know it is not made of green cheese.

It's reasonable to say that there is no evidence that God created the world in six days but there is evidence to say that Pilate was prelate of Judea at the time of Jesus.

The Bible, in particular, is a book written by many authors over thousands of years. It's an anthology, not a monolith. Some things may be true, others not.

Your argument misses the point: one cannot embrace the Jesus who said, "Whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also," but reject the Jesus who said, "Whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." Hence:

And Jesus specifically stated the the Old laws, as laid out in leviticus, must be observed... ergo, homosexuality is still an abomination to the followers of Jesus.

Folks taking the stories they were indoctrinated with as children and embroidering over them to suit their own actions and interests is all fine and well.... but it is narcissistic.

the bible is not a smorgasbord for you to sample what you like and discard what you don't.
If you believe in the bible, then don't suck cock or take it in the ass, you will go to hell, or, at the very least, get passed over for that promotion to eternal life.

If you don't believe in PARTS of the Bible, then you might as well abandon it all, because if some of it is hogwash than, probably, all of it is hogwash and trying to cling to Jesus and rehabilitate some shred of the book while discounting the rest as no longer applicable is like deciding to stop believing in Santa, but to hold onto Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer as still being the real shit.
 

JustAsking

Sexy Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Posts
3,217
Media
0
Likes
33
Points
268
Location
Ohio
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Really? This is a Fact?
Please cite proof or evidence of this being factual information.

In point of fact anything cited from the writings of Paul are NOT christian , but Pauline.
Paul forwarded the notion of Jesus' divinity. He made it up out of whole cloth.

Jesus always denied being divine, and specifically stated that he was the son of man, not god.

If you insist on rejecting almost half of the New Testament written by Paul, let me quote from the Gospel of John, if that is ok with you. John is all over Jesus' divinity like a cheap suit in the rain. This is also one of the places where Luther (and others) sees Jesus as the one through whom God is known.

Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going. So how can we know the way?"

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father also. From now on, you do know him. And you have seen him."
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father. That will be enough for us."
Jesus answered, "Don't you know me, Philip? I have been among you such a long time!

Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. So how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Don't you believe that I am in the Father? Don't you believe that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. The Father lives in me. He is the One who is doing his work. Believe me when I say I am in the Father. Also believe that the Father is in me. Or at least believe what the miracles show about me.

"What I'm about to tell you is true. Anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. In fact, he will do even greater things. That is because I am going to the Father. "And I will do anything you ask in my name. Then the Son will bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name. I will do it. - John 14:5-14
 

JustAsking

Sexy Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Posts
3,217
Media
0
Likes
33
Points
268
Location
Ohio
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
If picking and choosing what to accept and what to reject from the Bible is OK, then on what basis are those decisions made? Since religion rejects reason and empirical evidence on such matters, I am left puzzled. What on earth supercedes the Bible to people who base their lives on it?

Actually, the answer to this question is the same answer we give for the epistemology of science. And that it that there is no theory neutral vantage point for interpretation. One comes to the Bible as a community carrying the lens of a theology through which the Bible is read and interpreted.

Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Methodists and many others comprising some 80% of the world's Christianity believe that it is heretical to insist that the Bible is without error and is to be read as literally true in all passages.

These denominations approach the Bible with the reading lens that has been polished with the theology of God's unconditional love and forgiveness. It is called theology of Grace. On top of that, the axis on which this theology turns is the empty cross of the resurrection, which is God's demonstration of his grace through his own sacrifice.

On top of a presupposed theology is a few hundred years of Biblical historical scholarship. There is a Greek word for all of this is called exegis.

You may call it arbitrary, but then every other collective intellectual pursuit is also arbitrary in the same way.
 

JustAsking

Sexy Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Posts
3,217
Media
0
Likes
33
Points
268
Location
Ohio
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
The problem is that Phil's reasoning isn't logical. The Bible is no more all-or-nothing than anything else. Saying that the moon is made of green cheese doesn't mean there is no moon simply because we know it is not made of green cheese.

It's reasonable to say that there is no evidence that God created the world in six days but there is evidence to say that Pilate was prelate of Judea at the time of Jesus.

The Bible, in particular, is a book written by many authors over thousands of years. It's an anthology, not a monolith. Some things may be true, others not.

Yes, precisely put as usual. And some things may be literally true and some may be figuratively true. And hundreds of years of Biblical scholarship along side historical scholarship has taught us that much of the Bible was written in literary forms that seek to transmit wisdom in modes that are non-literal and non-factual. No one should be surprised at that since we are aware of our bias towards facts as an indicator of truth as we are the heirs to Western culture.
 

jason_els

<img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi
Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Posts
10,228
Media
0
Likes
162
Points
193
Location
Warwick, NY, USA
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Jesus said he fulfills the law. Whoopee!

If you say we can't toss out Leviticus with the coming of Jesus, then we also have to ask, whose Leviticus are you going to believe? Leviticus as you read it is merely a translation and it may not be an accurate one either. There are various ideas about how Leviticus (and the rest of the Bible) have been translated. To see the various interpretations, just take a look:

Arthur Waskow, a writer and rabbi, points out that:
"The whole structure of sexuality in Torah assumes a dominant, male and a subordinate woman."

"Do not lie with a man as if it were the same thing as lying with a woman." That is, when two gay males have a sexual encounter, they should continuously be aware that it is different from a male-female coupling. It might be interpreted to mean: "Set up a parallel set of institutions for dealing with this kind of sexual relationship, different from those that apply to sexual relationships between a man and a woman."

"Do not sleep with a man as it were with a woman" That is, if two males engage in a sexual act, neither should pretend that the passive partner is like a woman. They should be fully aware of their sexual orientation and maleness. i.e. they should come out of the "closet" and recognize their gayness.
Rabbi Gershon Caudill, is: "not convinced that the biblical passages (here in Leviticus 18: 22 and also in Leviticus 20: 13) refer to homosexual activity that is within a monogamous, stable, and loving relationship." He suggests that the passages refer to sexual promiscuity, not to homosexual activity within a committed relationship:
He notes that Leviticus 18:22 is located in a section of Leviticus that deals with incest and bestiality.

It is not usual for a gay man to have sex with another man as if he the latter were a woman. If he were to do so, then he would be pretending that he was with a woman and not with another man. Thus, he would not be in a homosexual relationship at all. The passage actually refers to a heterosexual male who is forcing himself to fantasize that he is having sex with a woman in order to be able to complete the act. In modern terms, this would be considered as a male heterosexual violating his own sexual orientation -- his own basic nature.

At the beginning of the chapter that includes this passage, Leviticus 18:3 states: "After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances." Here, God is saying that the Hebrews are not to follow the practices of the Egyptians or of the Canaanites. Homosexual ritual sex in temples of both countries was common. Thus, one might assume that Leviticus 18:22 relates to temple same-sex rituals -- something that was ritually impure.
The National Gay Pentecostal Alliance (NGPA) has done a word-for-word translation of the oldest surviving texts and has produced exactly what a few other scholars unconnected with the NGPA have also found. They believe Leviticus should read:
"And with a male thou shalt not lie down in beds of a woman; it is an abomination. That is, "... rather than forbidding male homosexuality, it simply restricts where it may occur." This may seem a strange prohibition to us today, but was quite consistent with other laws in Leviticus which involve improper mixing of things that should be kept separate. e.g. ancient Hebrews were not allowed to mix two crops in the same field, or make cloth out of two different raw materials, or plow a field with an ox and a donkey yoked together. A woman's bed was her own. Only her husband was permitted there, and then only under certain circumstances. Any other use of her bed would be a defilement. An argument against this interpretation is that it would not blend well with the next verse. Leviticus 18:23 discusses a man or a woman engaging in bestiality. The traditional translations would make a smoother text. However, in defense of the NGPA translation, there is already a break in topic between verses 21 and 22. So a second break between 22 and 23 is not unreasonable.
The above cited and quoted, in part, from Religious Tolerance.

Let's also look at the history of the translators themselves. Most were Christian scholars of Greek and Hebrew. During the middle ages, learning was not what it is now. One good read of The Name of the Rose should give you and idea of what kind of vacuum translators were working in. They knew little of history, little of anything other than their area of expertise and there were no other people to clarify. Translators of these times had no idea of temple prostitution nor could they identify the Greek word malakoi for, "male temple prostitute," because the concept itself was alien to them. It is argued that because malakoi was translated as only meaning, "men having sex with men," that many translations were a mistake (and there are numerous translation mistakes all over the Bible, not just in Leviticus).

Let's also admit that Christians tossed out just about every other old law in the Old Testament save for the ten commandments. Christians do not keep or observe kosher restrictions, they do not cloister menstruating women, they do wear garments of mixed fibers, they can yoke oxen and asses together, they can plant fields of mixed grains, and they do not circumcise. It seems just what Jesus fulfilled and what he didn't is up for some interpretation by various Christian denominations.
 
Last edited:

Drifterwood

Superior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Posts
18,678
Media
0
Likes
2,812
Points
333
Location
Greece
It seems just what Jesus fulfilled and what he didn't is up for some interpretation by various Christian denominations.

Would this not lead you to conclude that they were therefore homophobic?

Great post BTW. Remember the conversation we didn't have about the practices that aren't to be discussed. :tongue: They thought it an abomination to take a man like a woman as well.
 

sab84

Experimental Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2009
Posts
113
Media
0
Likes
2
Points
163
Location
NorCal
Sexuality
Unsure
Gender
Male
I am sorry if this is a somewhat hackneyed topic, if you are gay and christian, but it seems so irrational to me. I can't see that the Christian God is anything but homophobic. Eve was created for Adam, Noah took the animals two by two, Sodom was destroyed, and need I mention Leviticus? Paul thought that all sex was a sin.

It just seems to me that Homosexuality and Christianity are irredeemably irreconcilable. Though of course, Jesus did love John.

Might I suggest you watch a History channel documentary called "History of Sex"(I know... Such an innovative name)... It might make you understand, why homosexuality is so much frowned (in lenient terms) upon in Christianity or Catholicism...

Also some random things...
1. Bible is compilation of Gospels, which means what people of that era interpreted from the words of God.. you are open to your interpretation pertinent to current time...
2. The first bible wasn't written till 2-3 centuries after the death of Christ... and and also it wasn't written in English or any contemporary European language... and a lot of meaning can be lost in translation...
3. Personally if I'm gay... I would rather marry a guy adopt a kid or two and settle down w/o thinking of what others think... you are giving shelter and food to two orphan... I don't think god would object to that.... He should (if he's there and he does) object to marrying 5 different women and having a dozen kids with them...
4. As a scientist I would say preservation of Species comes first.
5. As a human I would say being humane and gay is much bigger in stature than being straight and inhumane...
6. Mostly for Americans... who claim gay marriages void the sanctity of marriage... just ask yourself what sanctity is left in marriage.. It has just become a mere legal proceeding/document...

Now the specifics of your question...
1. Eve was created for Adam... ever wondered how we go to 6.5 billion humans then... where exactly was incest in the first 3-4 generations of the decedents of Adam and Eve.... think about it..
2. Noah took animals in pair... partly coz he expected to start/restart the population for those animals... that's not the case for us right now... Plus ever wondered what those carnivores like lions and cats and wolves ate on that ship...If you search... we are not the only animals/species with homosexual relationships/tendencies... off the top of my head I know Dolphins, a certain types of duck and another bird(don't remember the name) show these not only among males but females too...
3. Sodom was destroyed.... hmm if that city ever existed than it's more likely that if was destroyed either for political reasons or religious (conversion)... or else it would be an act of nature... (which construed as work of God).... and if you read Jewish and Islamic version.. it's totally different...
4. As for sodomy and sex prohibition.. you should really watch that documentary...
5. Leviticus... I'm really sorry.. I have no idea idea about it.. I have never read bible... and no I'm not an atheist.. I'm religious... I was born and brought up religious... and I still am... but luckily or thankfully(which ever is least offensive) I'm not a Christian... and yes I'm critical of my religion too....
Since childhood.. I was told not to take those words for granted... make out a peaceful, purposeful, contemporary and humane meaning out of religious text rather than taking word word for word. No religion exist with out us... So based on interpretation, I can say using this Computer is evil as well, since there is no mention of it in Bible and I'm not using it to spread "God's word".. but I would rather say.. I'm not committing any sin as I'm not using my computer for hacking into missile system to exterminate a population...

Peace of mind is more important than piece of text...
 

B_Hamadim

Experimental Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Posts
456
Media
0
Likes
11
Points
103
Easy, if God made me, he made me gay!

I was born this way, I didn't choose it.

Plus, Leviticus was a twat and Jesus said nothing about being gay or not.

Jesus didn't fulfill the Law!

No one is Born Gay nor Straight, Everyone is Born Bisexual.

Jesus didn't have the time to mention and answer everything, so he said to his desciples: "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now, Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16.

So he didn't have time to mention Homosexuality.
 

jason_els

<img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi
Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Posts
10,228
Media
0
Likes
162
Points
193
Location
Warwick, NY, USA
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Would this not lead you to conclude that they were therefore homophobic?

Great post BTW. Remember the conversation we didn't have about the practices that aren't to be discussed. :tongue: They thought it an abomination to take a man like a woman as well.

Quite a compliment coming from the owner of an Aga stove though I prefer Blue Star (not that I can afford either).

Yes, I remember that conversation and no, I don't think they were necessarily homophobic if, "they," refers to early Christians. Later Christians certainly were but even then, I don't think all were just as not all are now.

Early Christians and Jews would have found open homosexuality throughout their very Hellenized culture. I don't think it possible to be homophobic when an idea of homosexuality didn't exist at the time. Men fucked whatever they wanted. Christians in particular were warned away from fucking temple prostitutes because it was a form of worship of the temple's god or goddess. None of the prohibitions involved fucking anything else other than the temple prostitutes.

Real homophobia seems to have reared its head in the middle ages and then only in certain contexts. I have to look into it more to write a coherent post. I'm going to bed now but will consider posting tomorrow night when I get back from chemo. Blech.
 

Drifterwood

Superior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Posts
18,678
Media
0
Likes
2,812
Points
333
Location
Greece
That s what I meant by they, Jason. The denominations that you refer to and they were both responsible for the destruction of the Classical World and much later in the Middle Ages and more recently.

I have to go get naked with a lot of South East Asian men now. :smile:
 

nineinchnail4u2c

Experimental Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2005
Posts
224
Media
3
Likes
12
Points
238
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Arthur Waskow, a writer and rabbi, points out that:
"The whole structure of sexuality in Torah assumes a dominant, male and a subordinate woman."

"Do not lie with a man as if it were the same thing as lying with a woman." That is, when two gay males have a sexual encounter, they should continuously be aware that it is different from a male-female coupling. It might be interpreted to mean: "Set up a parallel set of institutions for dealing with this kind of sexual relationship, different from those that apply to sexual relationships between a man and a woman."

"Do not sleep with a man as it were with a woman" That is, if two males engage in a sexual act, neither should pretend that the passive partner is like a woman. They should be fully aware of their sexual orientation and maleness. i.e. they should come out of the "closet" and recognize their gayness.

How one interprets “Do not lie with a man as if it were the same thing as lying with a woman,” as a mandate to establish homosexual unions, and “Do not sleep with a man as it were with a woman,” as a mandate to identify as homosexual is beyond all reason. Clearly, the verse is a prohibition of receptive anal intercourse, because to be penetrated is to be in the sexual role of a woman. So not only is the verse in question homophobic, it is misogynistic as well.




Rabbi Gershon Caudill, is: "not convinced that the biblical passages (here in Leviticus 18: 22 and also in Leviticus 20: 13) refer to homosexual activity that is within a monogamous, stable, and loving relationship." He suggests that the passages refer to sexual promiscuity, not to homosexual activity within a committed relationship:
He notes that Leviticus 18:22 is located in a section of Leviticus that deals with incest and bestiality.

It is not usual for a gay man to have sex with another man as if he the latter were a woman. If he were to do so, then he would be pretending that he was with a woman and not with another man. Thus, he would not be in a homosexual relationship at all. The passage actually refers to a heterosexual male who is forcing himself to fantasize that he is having sex with a woman in order to be able to complete the act. In modern terms, this would be considered as a male heterosexual violating his own sexual orientation -- his own basic nature.​

Sexual orientation is a modern concept. For the authors of Leviticus, it was not in the nature of one to be homosexual. Ergo, the verses in question do not consider the nature of the parties involved or their relationship to one another, only their behavior.




At the beginning of the chapter that includes this passage, Leviticus 18:3 states: "After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances." Here, God is saying that the Hebrews are not to follow the practices of the Egyptians or of the Canaanites. Homosexual ritual sex in temples of both countries was common. Thus, one might assume that Leviticus 18:22 relates to temple same-sex rituals -- something that was ritually impure.

If the verses in question are a prohibition of temple prostitution, then why is sexual intercourse between men singled out? If that is the case, then one would expect heterosexual and lesbian sexual intercourse to also be mentioned.




The National Gay Pentecostal Alliance (NGPA) has done a word-for-word translation of the oldest surviving texts and has produced exactly what a few other scholars unconnected with the NGPA have also found. They believe Leviticus should read:
"And with a male thou shalt not lie down in beds of a woman; it is an abomination. That is, "... rather than forbidding male homosexuality, it simply restricts where it may occur." This may seem a strange prohibition to us today, but was quite consistent with other laws in Leviticus which involve improper mixing of things that should be kept separate. e.g. ancient Hebrews were not allowed to mix two crops in the same field, or make cloth out of two different raw materials, or plow a field with an ox and a donkey yoked together. A woman's bed was her own. Only her husband was permitted there, and then only under certain circumstances. Any other use of her bed would be a defilement. An argument against this interpretation is that it would not blend well with the next verse. Leviticus 18:23 discusses a man or a woman engaging in bestiality. The traditional translations would make a smoother text. However, in defense of the NGPA translation, there is already a break in topic between verses 21 and 22. So a second break between 22 and 23 is not unreasonable.
The above cited and quoted, in part, from Religious Tolerance.

Whether the correct translation is detestable or unclean, it is still a condemnation of sexual intercourse between men.




Jesus said he fulfills the law. Whoopee!

If you say we can't toss out Leviticus with the coming of Jesus, then we also have to ask, whose Leviticus are you going to believe? Leviticus as you read it is merely a translation and it may not be an accurate one either. There are various ideas about how Leviticus (and the rest of the Bible) have been translated. To see the various interpretations, just take a look:

Let's also look at the history of the translators themselves. Most were Christian scholars of Greek and Hebrew. During the middle ages, learning was not what it is now. One good read of The Name of the Rose should give you and idea of what kind of vacuum translators were working in. They knew little of history, little of anything other than their area of expertise and there were no other people to clarify. Translators of these times had no idea of temple prostitution nor could they identify the Greek word malakoi for, "male temple prostitute," because the concept itself was alien to them. It is argued that because malakoi was translated as only meaning, "men having sex with men," that many translations were a mistake (and there are numerous translation mistakes all over the Bible, not just in Leviticus).

Homosexual behavior is also condemned in Deuteronomy, Judges, Kings, Matthew, Romans, Corinthians, John, and Jude. Are we to presume that all of these instances are mistranslations or misinterpretations as well? So much for the inerrancy of The Bible.




Let's also admit that Christians tossed out just about every other old law in the Old Testament save for the ten commandments. Christians do not keep or observe kosher restrictions, they do not cloister menstruating women, they do wear garments of mixed fibers, they can yoke oxen and asses together, they can plant fields of mixed grains, and they do not circumcise. It seems just what Jesus fulfilled and what he didn't is up for some interpretation by various Christian denominations.

Those Christians are religious hypocrites. Hence:

Sorry... but the fundamentalist Kooks... they are the ones actually reading the book and following its doctrine...
Its just that the book is full of lunacy from cover to cover.
 

jason_els

<img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi
Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Posts
10,228
Media
0
Likes
162
Points
193
Location
Warwick, NY, USA
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
That s what I meant by they, Jason. The denominations that you refer to and they were both responsible for the destruction of the Classical World and much later in the Middle Ages and more recently.

I have to go get naked with a lot of South East Asian men now. :smile:

Drifter, someday I truly hope that we can meet. I'd really enjoy it.
 

Ethyl

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Posts
5,194
Media
19
Likes
1,711
Points
333
Location
Philadelphia (Pennsylvania, United States)
Sexuality
99% Straight, 1% Gay
Gender
Female
If you don't believe in PARTS of the Bible, then you might as well abandon it all, because if some of it is hogwash than, probably, all of it is hogwash and trying to cling to Jesus and rehabilitate some shred of the book while discounting the rest as no longer applicable is like deciding to stop believing in Santa, but to hold onto Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer as still being the real shit.

Expecting everyone to follow your ideal methods blindly is no different than what any other fundamentalist expects from others. I think you're judging others who are still trying to figure out their own spirituality too harshly. You mentioned being a Taoist. I'll wager you haven't been that since birth. You had to arrive at that decision at a certain time in your life after much thought, study, and contemplation. Please remember the rest of us deserve the space to arrive at our own decisions as well.

Separating the wheat from the chaff is good for our souls. We need more discernment in this world - not less.
 

jason_els

<img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi
Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Posts
10,228
Media
0
Likes
162
Points
193
Location
Warwick, NY, USA
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
How one interprets &#8220;Do not lie with a man as if it were the same thing as lying with a woman,&#8221; as a mandate to establish homosexual unions, and &#8220;Do not sleep with a man as it were with a woman,&#8221; as a mandate to identify as homosexual is beyond all reason. Clearly, the verse is a prohibition of receptive anal intercourse, because to be penetrated is to be in the sexual role of a woman. So not only is the verse in question homophobic, it is misogynistic as well.

Do not confuse our modern understanding of interpersonal relationships and culture with our understanding of life in those days. In the thread that does not exist, in the discussion we never had, you would have learned that this does indeed make a great deal of sense to someone living in those times.

"Unions," were always male and female. No matter how much any person desired members of their own sex, they were married. The only exceptions to this were members of the highest upper classes (and then only gentiles) who were younger sons and prostitutes. Everyone but everyone married. It was a necessity. Adultery was limited to having a male (married or unmarried) having intercourse with a married or virgin female. It did not apply to widows beyond the age of child bearing. It did not apply to men (married or unmarried) having sex with prostitutes of either sex. Adultery laws protected a man's property and that property included his virgin daughters and wives. A defiled daughter would be difficult to marry-off successfully. A defiled wife could give birth to a child which did not belong to her husband.

Let's think of how conception was perceived in those times. A man's semen was thought to be the essence of a child. The woman only provided a womb in which that essence, what they called a, "homunculus," could grow and be born. Women were not known to have eggs or to contribute 50% of her genetic material to the child. It was thought women determined what sex the child would be. A woman was as a field. She was to be plowed, seeded, and a good woman would have a fertile womb capable of bearing many healthy sons and when enough sons were born, a girl child or two would be good to marry off to create alliances or to stay home and care for the parents in their old age.

Without the fertility of the womb, the homunculus was no more a person than a clod of dirt. It had no purpose, no anything. It was incomplete and without life as an unfertilized bird egg.

Men were believed to have an amorous ardor not entirely within their control. Women too were seen to be very sexual and willing and also uncontrollable in their lusts. This is because of the extreme misogyny that you rightfully note existed in those days. Greek and Roman women lived fairly cloistered lives, not unlike those in more conservative Islamic countries today. Women had to be chaperoned, kept locked-up, and then follow a rigid code of what men they might or might not associate with. This was done for two reasons. The first is that if they were raped they would be blamed for the rape, possibly divorced for it, and even killed. The second is that it was believed that no woman could deny the amorous advances of a man. They were so weak as to be incapable of containing their desire and so might willingly submit to adultery. They might then have sex with their husbands, a child appears, and it may never be known that the child is not his.

It's difficult to understand to us, but property and blood line was the highest point of honor to a man as was protecting his progeny in the form of legitimate children and the virtue of his maiden daughters for whom he would demand dowries. Since marriage was a social contract, not an act of love, couples would not necessarily feel any sort of loving devotion to each other and so men might reasonably expect that a wife would not necessarily feel any compunction to sleep with other men based upon anything than the fear of what would happen if discovered.

Sexual orientation is a modern concept. For the authors of Leviticus, it was not in the nature of one to be homosexual. Ergo, the verses in question do not consider the nature of the parties involved or their relationship to one another, only their behavior.

It is indeed. It was expected in those days that a man would desire beautiful women and youthful men or boys. It was not expected that women would necessarily desire each other because a) women could not give birth without a male (and isn't that, as they believed, what women really want??) and b) women were of such arduous capacity that they would seek physical affection with each other. Sex throughout the entire Bible is about men save for that one passage in Romans which you raise. Women are not mentioned sexually in the Old Testament at all save for one completely shocking incident with Noah and his daughters. That women might find sexual comfort with each other was a given all throughout the Hellenic world yet it was of so little consequence to the world of men that it wasn't even worthy of comment or rabbinical law. Virginal girls had to be careful, they couldn't rupture their hymen, but otherwise, they were free to experiment with each other just as, and I know this sounds horribly sexist, people would see same sex dogs hump each other and laugh or tolerate without comment.

The true sexual object in any home were the boys. Even in cultures today, mothers and daughters will stroke the genitals of young boys to encourage them to urinate or gain an erection to please and quiet them. This was, and in some middle eastern cultures today, still is nothing unusual. They focus upon the boys to become amorous, potent, strong, and acknowledge that a child's sexuality is not confined to masturbation, father-son talks, and females outside the home.

When women and virgin girls are so completely off-limits except at the time of formal parent-arranged and chaperoned marriage courtship, there is a vacuum of sexual outlet for boys. Prostitutes fulfill this position and did in ancient times as well. Recall the scene in Rome where the young Augustus is praised by his mother for seducing Julius Caesar. In the odd dichotomy of Hellenic culture, a male was seen as requiring sexual outlet and experience before his marriage. He should be taught how to have sex, that ejaculation in the womb is necessary, that a wise man wants to help keep his wife's eye from wandering by pleasing her, that a very young bride may not be ready for sexual intercourse and, that should he engage her too young, may ruin her fertility and so needs to seek sexual outlets elsewhere.

Throughout the middle eastern world and despite modern laws to that effect, this is still quite the norm. Unmarried males, those below the age of marriage, engaging in sexual play with each other is quite normal and expected. This is also reflected in the Hellenic ideal that only males can love each other with the most noble of loves. Love for women was paternalistic and base. A man can love his daughter, may even love his wife and mother, but then so do some of the animals and love between men and women was not of the highest order of love as love between two men could be. English itself is a large constraint in understanding this. The Greeks had numerous words for various sorts of love. We have but one.

If the verses in question are a prohibition of temple prostitution, then why is sexual intercourse between men singled out? If that is the case, then one would expect heterosexual and lesbian sexual intercourse to also be mentioned.

Women did not go to prostitutes. Simple as that. Women could go outside of the home in groups of other older women, with eunuch slaves, or with male relatives who were of age. In some cases, women had particular times where men cleared themselves from the agora and women were permitted out to shop or to go to temple -- in groups. An unchaperoned woman risked being labeled a prostitute. The Greeks themselves even permitted women to have one time a year where they would celebrate the mysteries of Demeter. During this time women left their towns to gather from all over at various places and spend a fortnight worshiping Demeter and engaging in rituals. No man was permitted to attend and, miraculously, to this day, we still don't know what went on at these rituals. It is probably one of the best kept secrets of all time.

In yet another turn on sexism, it wasn't the responsibility of women to conduct rites of worship in the home. They were assigned various tasks which we see to this day in various Jewish rituals, but it was the husband and of-age males in the home who took on priestly functions. Women could pray to God, but they could not worship. "Where three or more of you gather together," only applied to three males. If a Hebrew woman broke a commandment, a pharisee would immediately look to her husband or father or son and ask, "How could you allow this?" Remember that women were permitted next to no property. They owned their jewelry, their bed, and had right to expect their husband or father or of-age son to provide for everything else. They could not inherit without specific gift and, even then, required male representation in court and social interaction. A widow with no sons or gracious sons-in-law was well and truly fucked if she had no other family to live with. In such cases she could well sell herself into servitude and then only if the lady of the house found her old and unattractive enough not to distract her husband or other family members. In later years, among the Roman patrician classes, women did hold a number of rights (such as owning property in their own right), that earlier women did not. Roman rights depended upon being a citizen of Rome and what class you belonged to. Not all laws applied to all people subject to Rome.
 
Last edited:

jason_els

<img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi
Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Posts
10,228
Media
0
Likes
162
Points
193
Location
Warwick, NY, USA
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Whether the correct translation is detestable or unclean, it is still a condemnation of sexual intercourse between men.

Again, you're placing the statement in a social context which no longer exists in western society. A married man could not be penetrated. An unmarried man could be penetrated. The only unmarried men were of a certain age which includes people we are not allowed to discuss on this board. This is a very heavily Hellenic concept and you must realize how thoroughly Hellenized the world of the Biblical Jews was at the time of Jesus. They spoke Greek, they were surrounded by Greek temples, they learned Greek philosophy, they read Greek poetry, attended Greek plays and what wasn't Greek was Roman and the Romans adored Greek culture so much that they pretty much copied the Greeks in their own. Jews today represent this fairly well. A Jew from Russia is still a Jew but also a Russian. Chinese Jews are Jewish as well but also Chinese.

I'm going to use the term "youth" here because of certain restrictions. It always should be read as, "male youth."

Prostitutes in the world of Greece and Rome had privileges unrivaled by anything we imagine. They were always unmarried, usually former slaves or captives bought at auction but also sometimes freelancers. They were employed in brothels and temples. As today, there were high-class brothels and your ordinary back street brothels. Boys, girls, men, and women were employed in these places depending upon the preference of the customer. Female prostitutes had something no other women did. They had the right of property and the right to be considered as men in court. They did not require escorts in public and they were free to educate themselves. They could consort with men in male-only domains. Some female prostitutes could even hold minor office.

The Hellenes had another "out" for women as well. From time to time we come across women who are referred to, "as having the minds of men." The five most famous are Aspasia, Sappho, Mary Magdelene, Olympias, and Celopatra. They came, almost exclusively to our knowledge, from the ranks of the upper classes. These women were educated and able to engage in male society without holding the rank of women. Just as the Hellenes made fun of effeminate males, they held some women in high regard for overcoming their sex and behaving and thinking like males. Because of their privilege and wealth, they were able to behave like upper-class women, much freer of restrictions than females of the lower classes. They accumulated power in their own right while also being the powers behind the throne (so to speak). To the classes who held power, such women were not so unusual as to invite disdain as they might be in the lower classes where such a woman might be seen as exceeding her place in society. Maintaining power required savvy ability on the parts of all family members and as we've seen throughout western history since this time, having the wealth to educate a daughter in something other than household management made her a valuable asset to the powerful who would need an intelligent (conniving, scheming, socially skillful, cultured) wife to help keep his family in power. A dowry for such a woman could equal a very nice country estate. Such a daughter would be in high demand, cement aristocratic families, know how to manage estates, armies of servants, and advance the careers of her husband and sons. Not all such women were accorded the status of, "having the minds of men," but some were and of those who were, when the other aristocratic ladies were ushered into the women's apartments while the men talked philosophy or politics, these ladies were invited to stay and that enhanced their power immensely.

Despite all this, however, these women were not sexually free in the sense we imagine them to be. Eunuchs are not necessarily impotent but nor were they considered men in the ancient world. A woman might seek pleasure from her eunuch as she might from a dildo. That's about the only sexual freedom these women had outside of taking illicit lovers though, it must be pointed out, that were any of these lovers discovered, a man could not only divorce his wife, but have her legally executed. Naturally, the higher the class of woman, the more difficult execution would be as it would bring great shame to her father's family and usually the desire to preserve the family alliances resulted in tolerance so long as pregnancy did not result or, if it happened, the pregnancy was terminated. As in upper class life today, infidelity was not the marriage-ender it tended to be among the lower classes.

When a Roman or Greek male youth reached puberty, and if he were beautiful and/or well-bred, he might find an older male suitor. I'll leave it at that. But what also happened was that the father of the house would be doing, for lack of a better word, pube checks on his son. As soon as his son began to physically mature, and this was not difficult as household males would go to the baths together, the father would have a party for his son including all the elder males in the family and they would either take him to a brothel or perhaps spring for a particularly beautiful female prostitute, get him drunk, explain what he should be doing in bed, and then wait in the brothel or outside a bedroom while the youth loses his virginity. Shouts and jokes and attempts to make the youth nervous would all go on. The prostitutes knew this ritual and even if the youth was shy or unable to complete the act, they would invariably return to the room and announce that the youth was now indeed a man and he would surely conquer any woman upon whom he set his sights and blah blah blah. This would fill the youth and father with pride and from then on, the youth would be expected to take on the sexual (if not social) role of an adult male which meant, essentially, that he was free to fuck anything on two legs so long as he or she was unmarried (or if she was, he didn't get caught). Yes that's a double standard and it's still one that exists to this day.

This particular age was not necessarily the age of marriage though he might be betrothed. There might be a period of years between the onset of puberty and the age of marriage (when he can hold a job and create a household of his own). During that time, a youth was free to be the passive partner in a male sexual relationship. Much depended upon his physical maturity and like today, male youths of the same age may be at very different stages of sexual maturity. Do not equate age with sexual maturity in the ancient world and also realize that puberty in those days generally happened at later ages and took longer.

This is the context in which Jews and the people they lived among, existed. A man was all man so long as he penetrated. A male youth was not a man yet and so could be penetrated with no loss of face. In fact it was encouraged. Much better to have your not-yet-of-age son fooling around with other males than possibly getting caught boinking a married woman or another man's underage daughter because, if he did get caught, the husband of your son's lover or father of the virgin could demand immediate marriage (thus breaking the betrothal of the son to whomever his father has promised him in marriage AND return of any dowry) or right to the son's father's property or even the death of the son himself. By defiling an unmarried daughter or another man's wife, the son has committed a crime not against these women, but against the male to whom these women belong.